Black Bronson

They could actually whack them all on limited then upgrade to main when they have a proper insight into the dog's quality at a more mature age than 8 weeks. ahh why bother just BANG em all on main, actually why bother doing anything, just whack em anywhere, after all its a business transaction, actually can they be express posted ? too ? You could always give them away for free and eliminate the business transaction

You are missing the thread Whippets, it's about getting duded with your papers and all that's really happening here is a spray of arrogance towards people that have been caught with unethical practices. No one arguing on this thread breeds dogs that I have any interest in whatsoever, and I can tell you that I have no interest in dealing with breeders who treat their buyers with contempt either. Some of the comments from breeders are disgraceful and personally I hope that any prospective buyers are taking note of who not to deal with unless they want to be jumping through hoops and treated like a second class citizens waiting for their papers to arrive.

Yes, many breeders do provide the papers at a later date with no issues, but what I am acknowledging is that collecting a puppy without the papers has a risk attached as some have found out. It's no consolation for the buyer that does get duded on their papers to say that the majority are ok and the system is great........does that help the owner with the now unpapered dog because their breeder has disappeared???. Trust systems have their weaknesses and if a breeder couldn't supply my papers when collecting the puppy, I would want some form of guarentee that I will definitely get them. To assume that getting papers with the puppy doesn't happen and it's all too hard...........I have just collected a puppy 6 weeks ago with the papers, it does and can happen if the breeder tries an bit harder to satisfy their customers Yes, it has a risk... you know, buyer beware and all that. I would consider the risk higher purchasing a puppy with papers ready to go because they breed only to supply the pet market and could be churning out lesser quality puppies because they aren't breeding to better the breed... but that's just me. What happened in this situation is unfair... but who is to say that this person isn't at fault for not doing their research on ensuring the breeder was legit? Did they make sure they would get papers when they picked up the puppy? when they initially enquired, did they ask whether the puppy came with ANKC registration papers? You just don't get it... but thank goodness I'll never be selling you a puppy... I think your ignorance on this topic leaves a lot of us much better off. What a load of rubbish telling people that breeders who supply papers with their puppies are pet market suppliers...........where did you get that nonesence from People are complaining about not getting papers which is what the thread is all about

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use a desexed female for performance/sport in the first place. A sporting female IMHO should be trained in work/sport as a proofing foundation that the line is work/sport capable and then used for the breeding of a proven and titled bitch. To concentrate on the training of a desexed performance/sporting/working dog is a real shame in the sense that if the dog turns out well, it cannot be reproduced or contribute to improved gene pools.

Yes, many breeders do provide the papers at a later date with no issues, but what I am acknowledging is that collecting a puppy without the papers has a risk attached as some have found out. It's no consolation for the buyer that does get duded on their papers to say that the majority are ok and the system is great........does that help the owner with the now unpapered dog because their breeder has disappeared???. Trust systems have their weaknesses and if a breeder couldn't supply my papers when collecting the puppy, I would want some form of guarentee that I will definitely get them. To assume that getting papers with the puppy doesn't happen and it's all too hard...........I have just collected a puppy 6 weeks ago with the papers, it does and can happen if the breeder tries an bit harder to satisfy their customers

Exactly Papers are better in the hand than chasing a breeder who's phone is disconnected I agree and from his papers we can see who his parents are and that they have been hip scored etc, if you are not given those papers you have no proof of who the parents are etc. Personally i would not leave with the puppy if I didnt have the papers. A GOOD breeder will have already given you a pedigree in lieu of the outstanding registration papers with a promise to forward the papers when they arrived from the controlling body. In addition, you would have had copies of parents hip scores and health testing ALREADY in a folder or booklet and THESE would have been given to a purchaser at the time the puppy left home. For example. My litter of 9 Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies started leaving home at the age of 10 weeks. Their registration papers were not back from the Tas Canine Association BUT they left home with a 50 page folder full of dietary information, a TEN generation pedigree, photocopies of their parents health tests, their microchipping paperwork and assorted other information. Their papers were forwarded as soon as they arrived back. Does that make me a bad breeder? Or somebody who is deliberately withholding papers or do I hang onto the puppies until 13/14/15 weeks of age and THEN let them go to their new homes with their pedigree papers which are apparently THE most important thing about the puppy? I think not. Because if I hang onto my puppies for that long, the next thing you'll read is the new owner coming onto DOL (or similar forums) with behavioural problems because their puppy is no longer a malleable baby and they are having trouble trying to settle it into its new home. Damned if you do or damned if you don't. How long does it take for the papers to come back???. My puppy was registered on the 31st of March with Dogsvic and the papers were back by the 14th of April when collecting the puppy. That's 14 days on the outside, but you can't get it done in 10 weeks I chose NOT to get it done in 10 weeks. I register everything except what I keep for myself on Limited Registration. They are my puppies and I choose what I keep first. I am in no particular hurry to get it done and as I have already said, ANKC rules say that it can be done up to 18 months of age. Either a puppy purchaser trusts me, or they go somewhere else. Simple as that. Editing to add: And once again, as I have said from a previous thread. If you insist upon just selecting bits and pieces from people's responses, then please do them the courtesy of doing so in context rather than just selecting ONE sentence that appeals to you and ignoring the relevant information from around it. You are being deliberately obtuse and it is very little wonder that your responses receive very little respect from other posters. So basically you are saying Ellz, to hell with the prospective buyers feelings on the matter it's your way or no way???. Don't you think that is rather an arrogant attitude to have towards your customers???. ;)

Exactly Papers are better in the hand than chasing a breeder who's phone is disconnected ;) I agree and from his papers we can see who his parents are and that they have been hip scored etc, if you are not given those papers you have no proof of who the parents are etc. Personally i would not leave with the puppy if I didnt have the papers. A GOOD breeder will have already given you a pedigree in lieu of the outstanding registration papers with a promise to forward the papers when they arrived from the controlling body. In addition, you would have had copies of parents hip scores and health testing ALREADY in a folder or booklet and THESE would have been given to a purchaser at the time the puppy left home. For example. My litter of 9 Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies started leaving home at the age of 10 weeks. Their registration papers were not back from the Tas Canine Association BUT they left home with a 50 page folder full of dietary information, a TEN generation pedigree, photocopies of their parents health tests, their microchipping paperwork and assorted other information. Their papers were forwarded as soon as they arrived back. Does that make me a bad breeder? Or somebody who is deliberately withholding papers or do I hang onto the puppies until 13/14/15 weeks of age and THEN let them go to their new homes with their pedigree papers which are apparently THE most important thing about the puppy? I think not. Because if I hang onto my puppies for that long, the next thing you'll read is the new owner coming onto DOL (or similar forums) with behavioural problems because their puppy is no longer a malleable baby and they are having trouble trying to settle it into its new home. Damned if you do or damned if you don't. How long does it take for the papers to come back???. My puppy was registered on the 31st of March with Dogsvic and the papers were back by the 14th of April when collecting the puppy. That's 14 days on the outside, but you can't get it done in 10 weeks

Because BB doesn't WANT an educated response. BB wants to argue. BB knows ALL of the answers. I would hasten a guess that the combined knowledge base in this thread would add up to over a century of experience, yet BB who it would seem is NOT an experienced dog breeder knows more than all of us combined. Ellz, what you are trying to educate me with, is a comfort zone that some breeders fall into that they think is fair practice. I understand why some don't provide papers on collection...........but to cover yourself to help avoid the situation that the OP has raised, witholding final payment from the breeder until the papers arrive and the deal is completed is also fair practice in the circumstances. Naturally the breeders wouldn't like the idea of money being withheld anymore than the owners like chasing their papers for months from breeders too lazy to honour their obligation in a reasonable time. When you have paid the money and upheld your end of the deal, to have to suffer with dramas trying to obtain your papers has got knobs on it and shouldn't happen. BB, the breeders who cause issues for puppy purchasers are thankfully the minority. Why change or complain about a system which really does work well and has done for many years just because there are a few rotten apples in the barrel? Part of the problem is that puppy purchasers do not take more care about selecting the breeders from whom they purchase their puppies, NOT the fact that the papers are not back from the canine controlling body etc. We can't always blame the puppy buyer, as often they don't know. All they know is that they like a particular breed and have taken the registered breeder routine thinking they are going about purchasing a quality puppy the right way. The breeder is nice and pleasant, the puppies are on the ground, emotions take over once a beautiful puppy is in their arms and little to their knowledge, have chosen a breeder who is as slippery as a s^*thouse rat in one way or another:eek: Yes I agree the slippery breeders are a minority, but there are some and some buyers who get caught through inexperience and turns what should be an exciting and pleasurable experience purchasing a new puppy into a can of worms.

BB I was under the impression most pet owners were paying for the puppy, not the paperwork. Registration is part of the transaction :D

Because BB doesn't WANT an educated response. BB wants to argue. BB knows ALL of the answers. I would hasten a guess that the combined knowledge base in this thread would add up to over a century of experience, yet BB who it would seem is NOT an experienced dog breeder knows more than all of us combined. Ellz, what you are trying to educate me with, is a comfort zone that some breeders fall into that they think is fair practice. I understand why some don't provide papers on collection...........but to cover yourself to help avoid the situation that the OP has raised, witholding final payment from the breeder until the papers arrive and the deal is completed is also fair practice in the circumstances. Naturally the breeders wouldn't like the idea of money being withheld anymore than the owners like chasing their papers for months from breeders too lazy to honour their obligation in a reasonable time. When you have paid the money and upheld your end of the deal, to have to suffer with dramas trying to obtain your papers has got knobs on it and shouldn't happen.

:D Are you saying that show quality means the potential to win a show :D It's not about the potential to win, any main registered pure breed is eligible for show entry in most situations and the judging determines the better examples of the breed. BB - in our breed (Danes) there are no disqualifying faults. There are, however, unaccepted colours, which I think is what you were getting at. In my breed GSD's, they do define disqualifying faults.........coat faults, colour, teeth irregularities, ear carriage and a few others that cause a disqualified show entry and the registration placed on limited.

What's the thread about whippets???, someone who hasn't got their papers from the breeder yeah???. So........you are in support of breeders withholding papers and providing owners with false promises??? As I mentioned previously, if it's fair to promise the papers at a later date, it's fair for the owner to promise full payment when the papers arrive. That scenario would sharpen a few breeders up who mess people around as per the OP's topic :D

Exactly :D Papers are better in the hand than chasing a breeder who's phone is disconnected

:D Are you saying that show quality means the potential to win a show :D It's not about the potential to win, any main registered pure breed is eligible for show entry in most situations and the judging determines the better examples of the breed.

quote name='showdog' date='26th May 2010 - 06:46 PM' post='4560796'] All of my breeders over the years have always had the papers ready when collecting the puppy, 8 pure breed dogs in total and again 6 weeks ago with our new puppy. Seems that some breeders can manage to supply papers on collection without a problem :D Didnt answer my questions?? Just because you breeder register early doesnt mean they get it right?? What ratio do there pups go on main/limited?? . I could register early BUT i prefer to place the pups on the correct register .If your breeders can access very early who is show/pet & the likes great they must have some real superstars in the show ring?? I have owned from others now 18 dogs & never got the papers on the day & that is over a 25 yr period & from breeders who i admire & love there ethics. Unless a puppy has obvious disqualifying faults that deem them ineligible to be shown, they are all show quality in reality.

They could actually whack them all on limited then upgrade to main when they have a proper insight into the dog's quality at a more mature age than 8 weeks.

Same here.never had an issue or query either. Black Bronson how many litters have you breed,how many pups have you evaluated between the above ages,at birth which pups would you put on mains/limited?? In breeds that arent born with the colour what colour would you list on the papers at this early age?? Are you able to tell which ones have faults ,bad mouths,poor movement?? Please inform us BB is the consumers advocate of DoL. Dogs are like cars according to BB My dogs come with an RACV check...er I mean vet checked for health before they go. My dogs come with a tank full of fuel...er I mean they have been fed well before they go. My dogs come with car mats and accessories...er I mean a puppy pack. Anyway, like showdog and SBT123, my pups rarely have their rego papers when they go to their new homes. I have had no problems with pup buyers in this regard. It's on their receipt that the registered papers will follow and be mailed out. A demanding overbearing puppy buyer would probably give me the willies enough to not even sell them a dog. They can look elsewhere. That's all good Whippets, then when the papers don't show up as promised ...........we have two active threads on DOL about exactly this now, then you have to mess around Quite a few owners have been messed around with breeders not supplying papers in a reasonable amount of time which isn't a new problem, it happens

Same here.never had an issue or query either. Black Bronson how many litters have you breed,how many pups have you evaluated between the above ages,at birth which pups would you put on mains/limited?? In breeds that arent born with the colour what colour would you list on the papers at this early age?? Are you able to tell which ones have faults ,bad mouths,poor movement?? Please inform us All of my breeders over the years have always had the papers ready when collecting the puppy, 8 pure breed dogs in total and again 6 weeks ago with our new puppy. Seems that some breeders can manage to supply papers on collection without a problem

Many a time when things are going wrong at work and you feel stressed and angry, there is nothing better than taking a 10 min break to pat your dog and tell him all the drama's that are happening. Dogs at work make a huge difference in lowering stress levels and to help get things back in perspective

Mine are not registered by 8 weeks of age as I wait till they have been vaccinated and microchipped so that the microchip number can go on the papers. It also depends on the time of year as to how busy the CC is as to how quick the papers come back. Don't forget that in the majority of states the papers need to be put in, they are then sent back to the breeder so that the breeder can transfer them over to the new owners, they are then sent back in for transferring and then sent to the new owners. This can take anywhere froma 3-8 weeks. He need to contact Dogswest, find out about the breeder and go from there. Leanne The papers for my recent puppy which I got on collection were in the breeders name with the transfer signed over to me on the day. I then did the transfer, but at least I had the papers to transfer into my name, I guess similar to buying a car with the rego papers

Mine are rarely registered by 8 weeks of age, the reason being that we are still often deciding on the one's that we are going to keep and that can be as long as 9 or ten weeks. Once we've made our minds up, the pups are registered appropriately on the main for the keeps and the limit for the pets. Puppy buyers are then provided with their papers, as soon as they are returned from the Canin Council and that can take anywhere from ten days to a months, depedning on their work load. Looking at it from a consumer angle which ultimately buying a puppy is a business transaction, breeders have the opportunity to pull a stunt in the same fashion as any other business when some of the supply is missing. If it's considered fair for the breeder to be unable to supply papers on collection, it's fair for the purchaser to withhold money from the deal until the papers are supplied IMHO

This is the second time in two days I've seen this reference. What are canon bones? I've never heard of them before. I give my dogs brisket bones from when they are pups, but under supervision as they eat them, not just gnaw on them. They occasionally get pigs trotters, which they love. canon bone is the bone from the knee to the fetlock (basically foot) of a cow or horse or I suppose camel or donkey. Long round shaped bone with marrow in the middle when sold in shops. We had a terrible time years ago with one of ours getting pancreasitis from his body processing the marrow and took the right vet to diagnose, but geez he was sick and in enough pain to be given morphine in treatment. Bloody bones, I really hate them, choking, broken teeth, pieces caught in the intestinal tract, the panceasitis and several bouts of vomiting and diahrea after bones. This is over a 30 year span, but many a drama we could have avoided without bones and a couple of nasty incidents that required vet intervention to treat the dog. We give occasional bone stuff, but take them away after they have a had reasonable chew.

I read a German translation the other day regarding the legislation that governs the APBT. Ultimately, the APBT is a banned breed, except a person can aquire a licence to keep them. To aquire an APBT licence, the applicant has to sit an approved dog behaviour course and pass an exam to obtain the licence. Once licenced to keep the APBT, the only restriction was mandatory leashing in public and an adequate enclosure to prevent escape. The German/English translations are not always the best, and I wondered if anyone knew more about this licencing system???. It seemed to focus upon responsible people owning the breed and concentrates more on the ownership, not the breed it's self.

Councils can and have placed dogs that aren't on the customs act on their restricted dogs list. For the DPI to change it's rules they would have to amend the customs act i believe. Some councils did place other breeds on restriction prior to a legislation change last year which stopped that along with the Pit Bull indentification check list. I am not convinced that too many APBT's comply with the Amstaff breed standards anyway and is a bit like trying to say that the Belgian Shepherd is another name for a GSD, or a Kelpie is another name for a Cattle Dog.

I have always got the papers when collecting the puppy. There is plenty of time to register the litter between birth and 8 weeks so that the papers are ready to go with the puppy which is part of the deal. Personally, I wouldn't pay for the puppy unless the papers came with it............they could sell you anything or perhaps never receive your papers at all:mad