Black Bronson

Sure, for those who have good general obedience there is no sense in reinventing the wheel. I use a trained "shush" myself. I don't know a lot of people who teach a trained "shush" unless they actually have a problem like this (or compete in obedience) so I'm not sure whether it's any less work, probably more if anything. I really enjoy an obedient dog and always teach "quite", "leave it" and several other general commands that people don't seem to teach much anymore. I believe a better result is obtained and less time spent on general behaviour than individual situations. A dog corrected of door bell behaviour doesn't help fence barking annoying the neighbours.

What if they don't care about or don't want to do that level of obedience training? Many people don't. I've had people approach me on walks asking if I could help with problem behaviours including barking at the door. I doubt many of them care about getting to a high level of obedience, they just want a way of dealing with the barking at the door from their pet dog. While I am interested in teaching high level training behaviours to my own dogs, many people just want a pet that they can walk and not be a nuisance. I can certainly see the merit in what Aidan is saying, and I was going to use a go to the mat scenario shaping the mat to doorbell myself to fix this sort of problem for others. There is merit in what Aidan is saying for the door bell situation, but it doesn't correct other nuisence barking issues that dogs being dogs exhibit. I prefer to work on the actual "barking" it's self to have control in all barking scenarios. Training a "quiet" command works in all situations, the door bell, the side fence, in the car etc etc. The training effort to control the barking I feel is more productive than conditioning for a multitude of individual situations

Hi BB. I know you directed your question to Aidan - I hope you don't mind my input (based on my experience of it). For some dogs who are 'hard-wired' (just turning a phrase, so I add a "so to speak" disclaimer to that expression) about barking, I find neither the "quiet" command nor the "go to mat on cue of door knocking" works that well or reliably for many. BUT, I do find the difference between the two, BB, is that the "quiet" command is the more difficult for the dog to embrace self-control over, because it does not demand an alternative conditioned behaviour to exhibit instead of barking, so it is (I find) the more difficult for the dog to learn. I've worked with a few people on the "go to the mat on door knock" routine and it has worked to some extent, although I find it is the PEOPLE who are problematic in fully teaching the dog this conditioned response. They're often great when they are practising it (and yes, many dogs catch on pretty quickly), but when it comes to the real deal (in which you have different people scents at the door; different body language from the dog-owner as they acknowledge the door knock; and other small - but noticeable to the dog - nuances, including owners who can't get past having to answer the door and not have people outside waiting for them) the owners become inconsistent with the training and often give up. (Just my experience.) I find it easier to teach the dog to go to its crate (crate training comes first, of course) and for the owners to close the crate door whilst they then answer their own door. I am generalising of course, but this has proven to be a faster way of the dog learning; it removes much of the opportunity for inconsistencies (eg. dog breaking from the mat when the door opens) in the owner's training and teaches the dog it isn't their place to be greeting visitors at the door. If doing this is not enough to stop the dog from barking, often using a blanket over the crate helps for the early stages of training. This eventually can lead to the dog not needing the crate, but weaning off to a mat as in the go-to-mat 'trick'. Mind you, I have other methods of training dogs to stop going crazy at the door as well that I often find are easier for the owner and by comparison to the aforementioned, quite effective. They are many and varied and what one I might suggest (and sometimes I might suggest a couple of ways, to suit different circumstances) depends on the dog and owner combo in question. Sometimes I use the "go to the mat" one (or as one of a couple) for people who have dogs that need more mental stimulation - in that way it serves two purposes. 1. The owner is happier for the preferred response (and is usually delighted at the 'cuteness' factor of it). 2. The dog is happier because the owner is spending time and also providing them with something to think about whilst they are training them. ETA: Although I think this chatting about methods to stop a dog barking at the door knock is taking the thread way off track. Sorry to the OP. Hi Erny, Your input always welcome Where I am coming from is that many people have problem behaviours they are trying to control like typically barking at the door bell. But generally you find the obedience of these door bell obsessives isn't good either. They won't recall reliably, they won't sit stay, they break drops and mostly only behave at times of mininum distraction. A dog trained with a good level of general obedience as their behavioural foundation are controllable by command and don't exhibit the obsessive behaviour of the partially trained dogs. So I am thinking.........is it best to work on and train to correct a nuisence behaviour like door bell barking, or work on and train general obedience so that nuisence behaviour is then controllable???. I am probably looking at high level working dog obedience not usually attained by the average pet owner, but even still, uncontrolled barking is a common nuisence which I think for any dog ownership conditioning a "quiet" command is a great feature to have up the sleeve. I have been working on the "quite" command with our 9 week old working line GSD puppy in his crate.........wish me luck Erny, but he's just starting to respond in the last couple of days.

I would like to know a bit more about the GSD with HD, who xray'd it and determined the results and what it's actual score is. I remember a friend's Golden Retriever diagnosed with HD by a vet due to a limp which was a strained ligament from jumping off a wall and over time the dog fully recovered. How old is the GSD and what it's symptoms are is something of interest???. Ancestor hip scores would be interesting, perhaps both parents just under the cut off, personally I like to see the numbers more so than passing a breed survey. Perhaps the OP can provide us with some more detail???

I would like to see a law in place that breeding dogs is illegal in the same fashion as growing dope. Bandaid fixes, compulsory desexing etc etc, doesn't work and it needs to be addressed at the beginning, even jail terms for puppy farmers and repeat offenders. Breeding should be conducted only by registered breeders IMO and to criminalise random breeding will soon reduce the problem. There has to be laws controlling the breeding of animals full stop I think.

You got the "automatic" part right but I had actually described how to teach the dog to bark just a couple of times instead of continuously. Some people like their dog to bark at the door, just not until their ears bleed. Wouldn't teaching the "quite" command be just as effective Aidan???, also teaching the "quite" command it works anywhere and any time the dog barks, not just the door bell. Wouldn't it be more effective to spend time teaching one command to cover all situations instead of a hundred routines to cover every individual scenario which to me sounds like a lot of hard work and a lot of time on a behaviour that could be acheived a whole lot easier???.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly. Used sensibly, it's very potent. I think there is an article on clickertraining.com that shows how this is trained. My favourite technique with door-bell barkers is to teach them to bark briefly instead of continuously. All you do is click then toss a treat when they have barked for 1 second (or whatever you want, so long as you are consistent). Then click while they are eating, then toss another treat. Knock on the door again to repeat. Next time click for the same amount of barking, but click again for slightly more silence. Simple, effective, works from day one. I may be a bit thick, but I don't get this at all Aidan Are you trying to teach a disobedient partially trained dog not to bark at the door bell, aren't we jumping the gun a bit with door bell behaviour instead of concentrating on general obedience??? Forgive my confusion, but are we talking about the same thing? How could you possibly know that the dog lacked general obedience because he barked continuously at the door bell? My dogs bark at the door bell and both of them have well above average general obedience In any case, what has general obedience got to do with barking at the door bell? My grandmother's Shitzhu has appalling general obedience and she couldn't care less, it doesn't cause her any problems and the dog is easily groomed, seen to by the vet, walked etc If she came to me because her dog barked at the door bell (and she does bark at the door bell but my grandmother likes it, being elderly and living alone) I would just teach Bella not to bark at the door bell and everyone would be happy. When achieving general obedience, you don't have to make up all these situation specific routines is where I am coming from Aidan, as general obedience covers everything. My dogs bark at the door bell and stop barking to a "quiet" command. They also recall away from the front door, drop on command etc etc, so their general obedience over-rides any poor or unwanted behaviour. Also, when a dog has good general obedience as a foundation, it's easier to reach higher levels of performance from the dog.

The "snowball effect" only occurred because a court ruled that another breed (Amstaff) was a different name for an APBT which is a restricted or banned breed. The intention of the court ruling was not to target other breeds into the BSL umbrella. If the evidence claimed that a Dalmation was the same as an ABPT, the Dalmation would be now in the spotlight in the same fashion as the Amstaff. I don't see this situation as an agenda to add more breeds to BSL.

The court so ruled on the evidence presented. Other experts could have been called who would have presented totally different evidence - ie, that the two breeds are separate. As people on this forum disagree, so do experts in the breeds. I personally, think, as an outsider looking in, that the AST is a different breed, because of the years and generations away from APBT breeding, particularly in Australia. 4th generation is pure, according to genetics. AST in Australia is AST continually mated to AST over ???? years and ???? generations, with no input from APBT. The ANKC would not allow APBT to be used. Someone who breeds AST and knows more of the history of the breed can clarify time and generations. Boxers are descended from Bulldogs. I can see very little of the bulldog in the boxer. The breeds went in different directions, and the bulldogs used in 1880+ were not the bulldogs of today. No one would class a boxer as a bulldog, unless there were power games going on, as there is with BSL. The "evidence presented" is really the issue in this case, as obviously there was insufficient contrary evidence presented in opposition. But having said that, a court ruling on that basis doesn't make it right or prove that they are the same breed by any means. The court ruling supported the best story on the day basically. I guess it's understandable to target the Amstaff once a court has determined that the breeds are the same with two different names which is a difficult situation. I don't think as some have mentioned, that targeting of Bull breeds in general is the basis of the Amstaff dilemma and is simply because the Amstaff has been directly connected with a restricted breed.

I have a desex allbefore they leave me, the only ones that leave whole are dogs in joint names. The main reason breeders desex pups at an early age (8 - 12 weeks) is that people have been known not to keep to their word, the limited register alone does not stop people ( reputable or not, reg breeder or puppy farmer) from breeding with a dog. Thats my answer anyway, others may have their own reasons. Limited register prevents ligitimate breedings that could effect the breeders bloodlines as such, but as for unpapered breedings, BYB's etc, I can't see how that effects the breeder to the point of requiring a desexing clause???. Puppy farmers will breed regardless, so perhaps breeding from quality stock instead of breeding just anything isn't so bad???. I wasn't aware that puppy farmers generally purchase papered puppies for breeding, but perhaps they do???

Why would a breeder have a desexing clause???. A limited register takes care of registered breedings anyway

Is the Amstaff and APBT the same breed of different lines, like a working/show line GSD, or are they a completely different breed???. I understand that the court ruled them as the same breed from the evidence presented, but is ruling correct or not???.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly. Used sensibly, it's very potent. I think there is an article on clickertraining.com that shows how this is trained. My favourite technique with door-bell barkers is to teach them to bark briefly instead of continuously. All you do is click then toss a treat when they have barked for 1 second (or whatever you want, so long as you are consistent). Then click while they are eating, then toss another treat. Knock on the door again to repeat. Next time click for the same amount of barking, but click again for slightly more silence. Simple, effective, works from day one. I may be a bit thick, but I don't get this at all Aidan Are you trying to teach a disobedient partially trained dog not to bark at the door bell, aren't we jumping the gun a bit with door bell behaviour instead of concentrating on general obedience???. If the door bell procedure (above) is necessary, the dog in terms of it's general obedience is hopelessly lacking in that case. I like to achieve the situation where the dog recalls off the front door, drops and relaxes on command and will do so with any distraction across the board. It's not about door bells ringing and barking dogs, it's about training a dog in obedience to relax on command and stop barking. I just don't see any basic obedience foundations being applied.

We have just endured a terrible few days with our 8 week old GSD puppy contracting Coccidia which many of you would be familiar with the symptom of projectile watery diarrhea that dehydrates a young puppy in very short period of time. Our little fellow has spent the last 3 days in the animal hospital on a drip and medication to treat the Coccidia and is thankfully now back home full of beans and scoffing down his food again as a growing puppy should be. :D Our first thought was the dreaded P word and was tested and cleared of Parvo and Corona virus immediately at the vets, but as new puppies can develop some diarrhea from the stress of leaving their mothers and litter mates settling into their new home which may not be a serious complaint, Coccidia is serious in the young with it's dehydrating effect which need to be properly assessed and diagnosed at the vets and not overlooked as a simple tummy upset. Especially as a young puppy from our experience, any brown watery diarrhea I would advise should be treated as a more serious possibility than a simple tummy upset and the puppy be thoroughly examined by a vet to determine the puppy's illness.

How do they do a behavioural assessment with an 8 week old GSD puppy I certainly wouldn't take the RSPCA's opinion of a GSD pup of unknown parentage how it will turn out as an adult in regard to health and temperament, they wouldn't have a clue, but they are happy to palm it off to someone regardless Black Bronson, Haven't you seen the R$PCA Temp tests on TV, Large doll shoved in front of terrified little dog if dog barks FAIL PTS. Throw ball, dog chases ball FAIL PTS. Young dog too playful and playbites FAIL PTS. Their temp tests are a bloody joke. I too would like to know how they would temp test an 8wk old GSD pup, they might use the "too protective" card. ;) Tarope, many GSD temperament tests are a joke especially when the testing parties are not familiar with the breed traits that make up a balanced temperament in a young dog. Too often, very good GSD's are failed and poor submissive temperaments are incorrectly passed as having good pet prospects which is the concern. I have seen too many times the result of incorrectly assessed GSD puppies as adults, with nervous unpredictable sharpness where the play biting, prey driven confident puppy failing the test would have grown into the best prospect as a family pet IMO.

That's exactly what happens and the "protective" GSD was probably a fear biter caused by poor genetics in the first place. The R$PCA Inspector had the dog for 10mths with his own family, so if the GSD was a fear biter any fool would realize this as the GSD was an adult. But this boofhead Inspector took the word of another boofhead who had this poor dog 5 minutes and the poor dog was PTS. This just goes to show the R$PCA knows nothing about dogs or dog breeds because GSD's are very protective of the family they love. Being protective is a good excuse for fear aggression and over sharpness in many GSD's who react to something that doesn't belong. A genuine "protective" GSD is calm and confident..........have a look at a good police dog.

How do they do a behavioural assessment with an 8 week old GSD puppy I certainly wouldn't take the RSPCA's opinion of a GSD pup of unknown parentage how it will turn out as an adult in regard to health and temperament, they wouldn't have a clue, but they are happy to palm it off to someone regardless :D So your argument then is that the RSPCA SHOULD be euthanising all GSD puppies of unknown parentage? Good to know where you stand on the issue :D My stand is that the GSD puppy is off their hands, let it be and move on

While it is sad there is one other person who had the power to prevent this, the dog owner. Personally I don't think children should be allowed to go to the shops alone unless they can be trusted not to pat dogs that are tied up without their owner (among other things but that is a whole other topic) However I also don't think dogs who can't cope with an innocent child patting them should be left tied up alone. Who really knows what their dog can cope with until tested ? Most of us haven't got a clue. Some have got a clue but are of the belief that everyone should know better than to go near a dog that is tied up, that just isn't acceptable these days. These days I can't believe the amount of parents that allow their kids to run up to a stranger with their dog and expect to able to pat it. Quite honestly, this mentality is what causes kids to interfere with other people's dogs as a standard practice.

Unfortunately Jeanne, there are trainers and then there are trainers, regardless of which 'camp' they are in. The point being though, that those who vow to never learn and/or use any one particular quadrant of training method no matter what, have limited their expertise and knowledge and in turn this can and has affected the possibility of rehabilitation for some dogs. I have had a person with a GSD who informed me that she trained with a "positive only" (so to speak) trainer but her dog's issue could not be resolved. (Well, maybe if she'd spent another couple of years on it, during which time her dog would have matured and perhaps settled a bit more ..... or maybe not.) The trainer advised her that she may need to PTS. The dog's problem? Pulling (a lot) on the lead. It was causing the owner a lot of grief - the dog was young, strong and very energetic. Inside that lesson we had the dog giving a loose lead for the first time in its life when outside of its yard. How? Yep - a correction was delivered. But there was a heck of a lot of positive reinforcement and reward given to the dog in the windows of opportunity that had suddenly opened widely as a result of that correction. I watched as tears of joy and relief tracked down the owner's cheeks as before that lesson she'd come to fully expect there was no hope in controlling her dog and that she was going to have to face taking her dog for a one way visit to the Vet. That's an excellent example Erny has provided which IMHO is "balanced" training. Erny would have already determined the dog's temperament and what she was dealing with and a good GSD will respond to a correction far quicker than a purely positive approach in that situation. They don't shut down and they don't sulk and a correction grabs the dogs attention to a wrong doing to open the window of opportunity by settling the dog into a pattern of desired behaviour that povides the proper foundation to work with for that particular dog. Who's the better trainer, the one's who recommended the dog be PTS to save it suffering a correction, or Erny's approach delivering a correction to rehabilitate the dog???

Didn't pay a cent for my pedigree wheaten and my pedigree kerry blue. Your point? Can you get me a working line GSD from titled parents on main register for a good Schutzhund prospect for free Sheridan??? I will have 2 please

People are critical of us all the time for having pure breed and specialised dogs along with paying too much money for just a mere dog, but they are people who don't understand how a choice of dog means more to some people than others.

How do they do a behavioural assessment with an 8 week old GSD puppy I certainly wouldn't take the RSPCA's opinion of a GSD pup of unknown parentage how it will turn out as an adult in regard to health and temperament, they wouldn't have a clue, but they are happy to palm it off to someone regardless

That's exactly what happens and the "protective" GSD was probably a fear biter caused by poor genetics in the first place.

It saddens me to think of this "moral protocol" to PTS a dog that bites a child. Only the child or parent had the power to prevent this situation by leaving other people's dogs alone. It was tied up and no danger to anyone.........why interfere with the dog I was taught as a child not to approach other people's dogs which IMO should be the standard protocol, not do as you please with other people's dogs then PTS if it bites someone If the dog is roaming and approaching people with aggression that's a different story, but not this situation.

Seriously? You think it's ok for someone to break in to an animal shelter and steal a puppy? There are any number of reasons for an 8 week old puppy to be in the shelter: surrendered by a BYB who couldn't find a home, seized by an inspector for not being looked after properly, pregnant mother surrendered and puppies born in care, etc, etc, etc. Why would the RSPCA want Sefton back? Maybe because they have no idea if he has gone to a good home. Maybe because if someone is going to steal a dog they don't in fact have the best of intentions and perhaps are involved in other criminal activities like say dog-fighting. Why make an issue of it? It's a crime! People aren't supposed to be allowed to go around stealing things, animals included. I am absolutely stunned that anyone would question the RSPCA making the theft public and trying to get the dog back. The RSPCA are nutorious for euthanasing shelter dogs that no home can be found, why add to that possibility wanting it back???. Further more, what can the RSPCA offer someone in the quality of an 8 week old GSD puppy of unknown parentage and bloodlines???. The RSPCA would be aware that oddball GSD breedings should be met with caution in regard to health, temperament and other factors that relates to the breed.