Black Bronson

In most cases those owners will teach the dog little and simply mangage the dog better on such a device. Those type of owners will continue to use the devices until their dog draws it last breath. As I mentioned, dog training and dog management are two different things

Your idea of a reactive dog is possibly different to mine Cosmolo. Have you actually worked with dogs in fighting drive???. Are you experienced in bite work training with security dogs or any of that type of training. Harnesses are used for the complete opposite in agitation training when training the dog to bite, not to stop it and release, the harness is useless, only the collar air block will release the dog if things get out of sequence. An air block works on the street or park in the same fashion, the "emergency brake" if things get out of shape with a strong reactive dog. About a year ago, there was a girl about 10 or 11 years old walking a young Kelpie X dog on a slip leash that saw a dog across the main road and starting to pull the little girl into the traffic. She was screaming for her mother who was pushing a pram about 50 metres back down the path and I could see what was going on I put my dog in a drop/stay and ran to the little girl and grabbed the leash as the dog reached the kerb, and lifted the leash straight up, air blocked and the dog stopped instantly. The dog preferred to breath and chasing the dog across the road was of no further interest at that point. What I am saying is simply this. If it hits the fan somewhere, which can happen with a dog that has some power over the handler, you have to able to stop it..........we have an obligation to stop it when taking a dog into a public place. Head collars and harnesses drastically limit the ability to do so over a neck collar with a reactive powerful dog.

I'm not sure why you think that it is acceptable to call my advice "stupid" but I would remind you that this sort of attack is not appropriate here. A front attaching harness gives the owner leverage so that the dog is not able to overpower the handler. The handler is free to simply walk away from a difficult situation taking the dog with them. This is not true when the dog is wearing a check chain or dominant dog collar and unless the handler is very strong they will not be able to complete the dangerous procedure that you have described. Given your now evident lack of understanding of the tool being discussed I have to wonder why you believe you are qualified to criticise it? Have you ever seen one being used? Aidan, people read these forums and your advice was to use a head collar or harness for small females to best control reactive and aggressive dogs. You will find that asking trainers experienced in this field of training that they would also think your advice is stupid too. That's absolute crap that a 45kilo female cannot block a powerful dog on a Dominant Dog Collar.............it's what the collar is designed for, infact a 12 year old child has the strength to do so. I am more than happy to be corrected and change my view of the head collar and harness application providing the ultimate control of reactive and and aggressive dogs, but the contradiction to this, is that you won't find ANY reputable and experienced trainers who specialise in this field of training to agree with your concept. So, all the accomplished trainers in this field are idiots are they Aidan and you know best..........is that what you are saying??? With respect Adian I don't see your name popping up with any formal training accomplishments at all, especially in the handling of volitle dogs, but there are plenty who have achieved and are very good at it, and none of them use head collars and harnesses to train and control these dog types. I apologise for respecting the opinions of people that have the formal proven competence to train with methods that bring results, but in my way of thinking, it's best to learn from people who can do the job than people who think they can...........that's fair isn't it

So what's happened is the training concept has turned a full circle where instead of doing what the trainer tells you to do, the client is telling the trainer how they want it done. The problem is, the client doesn't know how to train a dog and if success is their motive, they need to listen and learn from someone who does

The point is Aidan regardless.................you don't need a head collar on any dog to teach a loose leash walk in the first place

And back in the "good old days" you wouldn't see the range of breeds we do competing in various dog sports. I wonder how many scent hounds those old school trainers managed to train to competition level? I wouldn't tolerate anyone speaking to me in such a disgusting abusive manner, you'd have to be a real pushover to take that crap No, we didn't see the range of breeds back then, you are correct, but the same breeds still win, nothing changed there

That's a classic SecretKei It's like the trainer of a similar group yelling at the GSD owner to keep her dog away from the others due to disruptive behaviour

Aidan............don't forget to answer this question, we are all patientely waiting. :D This is the scene: One of your 45kilo female customers that you have advised to use a harness on a 42kilo dog that's just tipped over the aggression threshhold and wants to take someones head off. The dog is pulling the owner towards a 10 year old child backed up against a fence petrified that the dog is about to kill him. The owner can't physically hold the dog back and the kid is frozen in fear................what are you going to do to stop an attack in that situation when the dog is un-muzzled and wearing a harness BB, to be honest I'm not sure that having this discussion is very profitable for either of us. Your most recent comments demonstrate ignorance of principles of behaviour and modern equipment that does not fit into your experience and understanding, which as far as I can tell hasn't changed much since the 1970s. If you don't understand that a front attaching harness prevents the dog from pulling, or the most basic principles of classical conditioning (which was studied and well understood 50 years before Koehler started yanking and cranking) then how do we ever get to the same page? I have a client with a rescue dog who was aggressive towards toddlers, children, had bitten adult men, and wouldn't let other dogs near him. He was muzzled, medicated, and kept away from everyone. She started working with me and suddenly her dog was playing with other dogs and letting men approach. We did not use a single correction with this dog, not even so much as a leash pop or verbal reprimand. He was not perfect, she could walk him off-leash around other dogs, but he was still fairly terrible with kids because we hadn't worked on that. Then she fell pregnant. Fast forward three years and she has just had another baby, her extended family has grown, and her daughter has friends over. While she closely supervises, the dog is clearly comfortable with children now and she has no real concerns for their safety or her dog's anxiety. Why do I tell you this? Not in the hope that you will change what you do, but in the hope that you will broaden your perspective of what is possible and maybe accept that there are different ways of doing things which are effective, and possibly even more effective. I do not consider a dog who is acting out of avoidance to be safe around things that he is still afraid of - at least when they were barking and lunging everyone knew what to expect. As far as a 45kg person being dragged around by a 40kg aggressive dog on a front attaching harness, have you ever used a front attaching harness? I originally ignored your question because it just seemed such a silly thing to ask. The same as your comments on my friend with the GSDs, are you a 45kg vegan woman? If not, then your experience does not correlate with hers. I'm a 105kg powerlifter, rugby second rower and dog trainer; you could give me a couple of Malamutes in pulling harnesses and I would be able to walk them nicely. How does that relate to my 45kg vegan friend? Zero relevance. Secret Kei asked about injury. There is no empirical evidence linking head halters with injury that I have found. I have access to thousands of journals on academic databases, as does my veterinary behaviourist colleague and neither of us could find a shred of evidence that there has ever been an injury in a healthy dog directly attributable to a head halter. Plenty of arguments, a few anecdotal reports, no data. With the hundreds of thousands of these things used every day you would think that there would be at least one properly documented case of injury or at least a study showing a statistically significant correlation, but if there is then it has escaped us. DOLers can make of that what they will, and no doubt there will be some objections. If someone turns up a study, a case study, a survey report - whatever, then I would be very interested and I keep my mind open to the possibility that there may be data down the track or data that we have missed. Wrong answer Aidan, the poor kid's in hospital, the owner charged and the dog PTS through stupid advice ANY dog, large and powerful especially, that may have the slightest inclination for aggression or unpredictable lunging MUST have a suitable neck collar if it flips it's lid. The ONLY way in that instance to subdue the dog safely is to block the dog's air, choke it out. You can't do that with a harness Your theories and principals are all well and good, but to advise head collars and harnesses as a "saftey measure" for small females with large reactive dogs as you described is irresponsible and dangerous advice. Have a look at Ed Frawley's (Leerburg) instruction how to handle dogs like this and what equipment to use, trust me.........it's not head collars and harnesses for good reason

I guess that I first began learning to train dogs in the 70's and if you didn't do what the trainer told you to do, they would scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and don't come back to training if won't listen and do as you were told Some of those old school trainers were mongrels and stressful to train under, but they were good and always had competition level dogs of their own to demonstrate their skills. We wanted what they knew and would hang on every word they said.........geez, you wouldn't dare argue with the trainer back then You know, people have a lot of choice about where to train their dog these days. I doubt many clients would hang around if the instructors scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and not come back if you won't listen Training is about communication afterall Plus, dog training is meant to be FUN! The point is, if learning how to train a dog is what you wanted to achieve, you didn't tell the trainer how to do it, you listened intently, did as you were told and trained your dog. Those that didn't, never learned to train and never ended up with well trained dog. Same applies today, the one's who won't comply with the trainers requirements and set down unrealistic boundaries for the trainer to work within, won't end up with a well trained dog either. :D

Aidan............don't forget to answer this question, we are all patientely waiting. This is the scene: One of your 45kilo female customers that you have advised to use a harness on a 42kilo dog that's just tipped over the aggression threshhold and wants to take someones head off. The dog is pulling the owner towards a 10 year old child backed up against a fence petrified that the dog is about to kill him. The owner can't physically hold the dog back and the kid is frozen in fear................what are you going to do to stop an attack in that situation when the dog is un-muzzled and wearing a harness

Catjar, seriously, I would forget behaviourists, vets and drugs until you can hire a good K9 experienced trainer to assess the dog first. Someone experienced with working breeds and GSD's in particular, what state are you in???. If the dog is fear aggressive and from a registered breeder, I would be asking the breeder why they are breeding dogs of weak nerve.

I suppose Schutzhund is out of the question

I guess they are in "the category" of the usual banned breeds. I was expecting to see Rotties, Dobies and GSD's too.

I guess that I first began learning to train dogs in the 70's and if you didn't do what the trainer told you to do, they would scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and don't come back to training if won't listen and do as you were told Some of those old school trainers were mongrels and stressful to train under, but they were good and always had competition level dogs of their own to demonstrate their skills. We wanted what they knew and would hang on every word they said.........geez, you wouldn't dare argue with the trainer back then

But sometimes the 'wrong' dog can teach you a hell of a lot more about training than the 'right' one If they love their dog and are committed to fixing the problem it shouldn't be an issue. However, I completely understand that some people get to the point of either 'fix it now or PTS' and then yes, you can only work with what's in front of you and do your best This concerns me too. If the dog has reached that point on a head collar then how do you stop it, how do you break through? A strong dog is either going to break free or break it's neck and that's a scary thought. I have never heard a more correct statement SecretKie that is so right My old GSD was one of those dogs and I had him for 15 years. Beautiful loyal and loving pet, but a viscious nasty dog towards anyone or anything that didn't belong in our family/friend pack. The amount of people including a couple of trainers who recommended I should PTS, but I fulfilled the obligation to look after him and train him as I promised I would as an 8 week old puppy. Yeah......he bit two people in his time, not seriously but enough to have caused a DD order if the incidents were reported and fortunately talked our way out of it at the time............but this old boy was a total handful of dog with an over sharp fearful defensive temperament, but I learned more from him than I could in a lifetime of nicer dogs. I would never choose another dog like my old boy, one like that is enough, but he taught me how to handle all the worse traits in the book from a large powerful dog which now I appreciate the opportunity he gave me to learn something as a case of necessity to keep him alive, safe and out of trouble.

Patients do things that they know are detrimental to their health all the time, including non-compliance with medication, failing to exercise, and even holding a fag up to their tracheotomy hole after having their throat cancer operated on. A lot of the time medication is prescribed simply to keep the patient functioning while they continue to eat food that is bad for them, continue to live stressful lifestyles, continue to drink to excess, smoke or take drugs, and continue to avoid exercise. These phenomenon are well understood in the field of health psychology but improvements in patient behaviour are probabilistic, i.e we can't make people do something, we can only increase the probability of it happening. The same is true in dog training. Most of my clients have reactive dogs, usually a large breed, usually owned by a small female. These are the ones who tend to seek help because they have no means of controlling the dog. I'm quite happy to recommend a front-attaching harness or head halter to these people where appropriate. An aggressive, powerful dog is not going to be changed completely overnight and there is too much risk in letting them continue with equipment which will not restrain them if something goes wrong. It wouldn't be fair to sequester the dog completely when an option exists that lets the owner continue to safely walk the dog without fear of losing control. Behaviour modification can then be undertaken in safety. So even when the owner is committed to training it is still sometimes appropriate to advise them to use equipment which gives them control. How is a head collar or harness goint to stop an aggressive dog once it flies off the handle in a rage of fighting drive???. What do you do to re-gain control and subdue the dog without an approriate tool to administer the correction???.

A dog could be trained in competition obedience but could never have been taught that pulling on the leash in certain circumstances gets them no where. Teaching a dog to do competition heel work and teaching them to walk on a loose leash are two different things. Yes, you are correct Huski that could happen indeed. But I wouldn't call that dog "fully" obedience trained in the case as that comment was made.

Of course "education" is a very big key factor, BB, and is something I (and I expect all of us) who are in contact with people in a 'teaching' capacity do. But we're talking about the real world with all the humans in it, flaws and all, and the fact that it isn't so black and white as to be able to simply expect that the needs and capabilities of dog-owners are always going to match those of their chosen dogs. Far better, IMO, to structure training (and I include methods and the different training tool styles in that) to give them a start that they want and are capable of fairly quickly. Either that will be enough for what both they and their dog requires, or it will at least be the 'light bulb' moment that motivates their enthusiasm for more and gives them an opportunity to achieve exactly that (ie 'more'). Talking within reason as obviously what the owner wants/is willing to do has to be something that is not harmful to the dog and that will also give the owner and the dog the (at least) beginnings of success so they can see it CAN be done. I agree Erny, what you have described is what I would expect the perception of a good trainer to be, but some trainers are not that way inclined, unfortunately.

Re-educate as best you can...........keeping in mind if the owners had the answers and expertise, why are they hiring a trainer???. Surely they are open minded enough to listen to what a training professional has to say???.

If this is the case then check chains rate pretty poor as an effective training system. If you look at the average trial ring heeling score of ALL competitors when the training system was all check chain compared to these days I know the average is far higher these days where the majority of training is done with positive motivational methods, not to mention the recalls. If you can use a management tool to get an opportunity to provide the dog with reinforcement for llw I really can't see what the issue is cheers M-J There was a time when Koehler style obedience training won everything and the dogs trained that way were millimeter perfect in their routines but some that were under heavy handed training (Koehler to extreme) although perfect in obedience, were considered flat in performance, didn't have "happy feet" I remember someone describing the flatness as. Training evlolved from there adding positive reinforcement into the mix which resulted in the obedience and the "prance" of the dog in routines that scored higher points which overall was a better performance. But then (my opinion) it went too far with the positive in some training groups trying to eliminate corrections altogether to label aversive training in any fashion as being cruel. It's this menatility where the head collar and harness routine emerges from along with the clickers and treats which some believe that every dog in every circumstance can be trained this way which I disagree. I made mention of the Cesar Millan videos I had seen.............me thinking not having seen his vidoes before that Cesar would be equipped with clicker, treats and head collar to follow the modern training techniques................and strike me pink, as I peer over my cup of coffee watching the vid..............he issued a leash correction to this rampard Bull Dog that was one of the worse pullers I have ever seen That dog was a nightmare on leash that was completely rehabilitated with leash work and common sense training.............beautiful I thought

My friend weighed 45kg, her dogs each weighed around 40kg. She liked to walk them at the same time. Her choice was entirely pragmatic. For e.g, I do remember her telling me a story about a bunch of drunk guys hassling her while walking the dogs one evening. The dogs were understandably agitated by this, but not protection trained. That situation is similar to mine Aidan and have walked 2 GSD's for years on flat collars or check chains, but when the dogs are truly obedience trained, I don't consider that I can't control them or worry about needing something extra. My old fella was an aggressive lunger in his day that was an issue walking 2 dogs until I had him under control and behaving appropriately. A fully obedience trained dog that is reliable off leash doesn't need a head collar. The dogs could be picking up on your friend's anxiety if she is worried about being overpowered by the dogs.........I never think about it, mine will sit and drop in the crunch if necessary.

Does anyone know where I can buy Paraban or Zantel deworming tablets, who stocks them. I am looking for a dewormer containing Fenbendazole or if anyone may know of another perhaps that contains the ingredient. Thanks in advance

The difference could be in your perspective? It seems a bit romantic to me, I may be younger than you but I certainly don't recall things being better then. When I started training dogs, which was not all that long ago relatively speaking but prior to the popularity of head collars, there were a lot of dogs who pulled into a check chain who were not trained or who were left in the back yard to rot. Hooray for the good old days, huh? Cosmolo is one of the best trainers and teachers (of people with dogs) in this country with a proven record of thousands of clients. She is willing to admit that there are some people who just cannot (physically) or will not (behaviourally) "get it". Why condemn their dogs to a life in the back yard for the sake of a trainer's ego or romanticism about the past? That's a wholly unrealistic expectation and not in the best interest of dogs. Now if someone comes to me, as a dog trainer, and says that their dog pulls on the leash then of course I will show them what to do. If they are committed to being consistent then they will get results and I will do my best to get them to understand the importance of this. How effective I am depends on a lot of factors but the tool that I show them how to use is not an important predictor of success. If I showed them how to use a prong collar they would not be in a better position than if I showed them how to do it with a flat collar, head collar or no collar at all. I train by principle, not method. I think perhaps there is too much emphasis being placed upon a dogs lifestyle which clouds training regimes trying to cater for people that in some cases shouldn't own dogs, or own the type of dog they have. Catering for people's needs is a good thing, but there is a line IMHO where catering as a priority overrides better training practices. Personally, I think some trainers allow people to create too many barriers to work within, and some of these barriers are unrealistic for successful dog training. Instead of trainers just nodding their head and agreeing to try and train around a set of owner imposed obsticles to cater for what people think they can and cannot do, sometimes it could be better to be educate the owner what needs to be done in a more direct way. It's a bit like asking a doctor to cure an illness without taking medication

Like Cesar Millan? My dog will still bolt like a startled chook whether she comes off the head collar, martingale or prong. How does which training tool you use change how the dog will react when you take it off? Because the dog isn't being trained for good behaviour, and the tools are being used for restraint and management. It's like tying a dog up in the back yard stops it getting out the gate, but doesn't teach the dog not to go past the gate.

Nice perspective SecretKei, I totally agree 100% Good post