Black Bronson

In most cases those owners will teach the dog little and simply mangage the dog better on such a device. Those type of owners will continue to use the devices until their dog draws it last breath. As I mentioned, dog training and dog management are two different things

Your idea of a reactive dog is possibly different to mine Cosmolo. Have you actually worked with dogs in fighting drive???. Are you experienced in bite work training with security dogs or any of that type of training. Harnesses are used for the complete opposite in agitation training when training the dog to bite, not to stop it and release, the harness is useless, only the collar air block will release the dog if things get out of sequence. An air block works on the street or park in the same fashion, the "emergency brake" if things get out of shape with a strong reactive dog. About a year ago, there was a girl about 10 or 11 years old walking a young Kelpie X dog on a slip leash that saw a dog across the main road and starting to pull the little girl into the traffic. She was screaming for her mother who was pushing a pram about 50 metres back down the path and I could see what was going on I put my dog in a drop/stay and ran to the little girl and grabbed the leash as the dog reached the kerb, and lifted the leash straight up, air blocked and the dog stopped instantly. The dog preferred to breath and chasing the dog across the road was of no further interest at that point. What I am saying is simply this. If it hits the fan somewhere, which can happen with a dog that has some power over the handler, you have to able to stop it..........we have an obligation to stop it when taking a dog into a public place. Head collars and harnesses drastically limit the ability to do so over a neck collar with a reactive powerful dog.

I'm not sure why you think that it is acceptable to call my advice "stupid" but I would remind you that this sort of attack is not appropriate here. A front attaching harness gives the owner leverage so that the dog is not able to overpower the handler. The handler is free to simply walk away from a difficult situation taking the dog with them. This is not true when the dog is wearing a check chain or dominant dog collar and unless the handler is very strong they will not be able to complete the dangerous procedure that you have described. Given your now evident lack of understanding of the tool being discussed I have to wonder why you believe you are qualified to criticise it? Have you ever seen one being used? Aidan, people read these forums and your advice was to use a head collar or harness for small females to best control reactive and aggressive dogs. You will find that asking trainers experienced in this field of training that they would also think your advice is stupid too. That's absolute crap that a 45kilo female cannot block a powerful dog on a Dominant Dog Collar.............it's what the collar is designed for, infact a 12 year old child has the strength to do so. I am more than happy to be corrected and change my view of the head collar and harness application providing the ultimate control of reactive and and aggressive dogs, but the contradiction to this, is that you won't find ANY reputable and experienced trainers who specialise in this field of training to agree with your concept. So, all the accomplished trainers in this field are idiots are they Aidan and you know best..........is that what you are saying??? With respect Adian I don't see your name popping up with any formal training accomplishments at all, especially in the handling of volitle dogs, but there are plenty who have achieved and are very good at it, and none of them use head collars and harnesses to train and control these dog types. I apologise for respecting the opinions of people that have the formal proven competence to train with methods that bring results, but in my way of thinking, it's best to learn from people who can do the job than people who think they can...........that's fair isn't it

So what's happened is the training concept has turned a full circle where instead of doing what the trainer tells you to do, the client is telling the trainer how they want it done. The problem is, the client doesn't know how to train a dog and if success is their motive, they need to listen and learn from someone who does

The point is Aidan regardless.................you don't need a head collar on any dog to teach a loose leash walk in the first place

And back in the "good old days" you wouldn't see the range of breeds we do competing in various dog sports. I wonder how many scent hounds those old school trainers managed to train to competition level? I wouldn't tolerate anyone speaking to me in such a disgusting abusive manner, you'd have to be a real pushover to take that crap No, we didn't see the range of breeds back then, you are correct, but the same breeds still win, nothing changed there

That's a classic SecretKei It's like the trainer of a similar group yelling at the GSD owner to keep her dog away from the others due to disruptive behaviour

Aidan............don't forget to answer this question, we are all patientely waiting. :D This is the scene: One of your 45kilo female customers that you have advised to use a harness on a 42kilo dog that's just tipped over the aggression threshhold and wants to take someones head off. The dog is pulling the owner towards a 10 year old child backed up against a fence petrified that the dog is about to kill him. The owner can't physically hold the dog back and the kid is frozen in fear................what are you going to do to stop an attack in that situation when the dog is un-muzzled and wearing a harness BB, to be honest I'm not sure that having this discussion is very profitable for either of us. Your most recent comments demonstrate ignorance of principles of behaviour and modern equipment that does not fit into your experience and understanding, which as far as I can tell hasn't changed much since the 1970s. If you don't understand that a front attaching harness prevents the dog from pulling, or the most basic principles of classical conditioning (which was studied and well understood 50 years before Koehler started yanking and cranking) then how do we ever get to the same page? I have a client with a rescue dog who was aggressive towards toddlers, children, had bitten adult men, and wouldn't let other dogs near him. He was muzzled, medicated, and kept away from everyone. She started working with me and suddenly her dog was playing with other dogs and letting men approach. We did not use a single correction with this dog, not even so much as a leash pop or verbal reprimand. He was not perfect, she could walk him off-leash around other dogs, but he was still fairly terrible with kids because we hadn't worked on that. Then she fell pregnant. Fast forward three years and she has just had another baby, her extended family has grown, and her daughter has friends over. While she closely supervises, the dog is clearly comfortable with children now and she has no real concerns for their safety or her dog's anxiety. Why do I tell you this? Not in the hope that you will change what you do, but in the hope that you will broaden your perspective of what is possible and maybe accept that there are different ways of doing things which are effective, and possibly even more effective. I do not consider a dog who is acting out of avoidance to be safe around things that he is still afraid of - at least when they were barking and lunging everyone knew what to expect. As far as a 45kg person being dragged around by a 40kg aggressive dog on a front attaching harness, have you ever used a front attaching harness? I originally ignored your question because it just seemed such a silly thing to ask. The same as your comments on my friend with the GSDs, are you a 45kg vegan woman? If not, then your experience does not correlate with hers. I'm a 105kg powerlifter, rugby second rower and dog trainer; you could give me a couple of Malamutes in pulling harnesses and I would be able to walk them nicely. How does that relate to my 45kg vegan friend? Zero relevance. Secret Kei asked about injury. There is no empirical evidence linking head halters with injury that I have found. I have access to thousands of journals on academic databases, as does my veterinary behaviourist colleague and neither of us could find a shred of evidence that there has ever been an injury in a healthy dog directly attributable to a head halter. Plenty of arguments, a few anecdotal reports, no data. With the hundreds of thousands of these things used every day you would think that there would be at least one properly documented case of injury or at least a study showing a statistically significant correlation, but if there is then it has escaped us. DOLers can make of that what they will, and no doubt there will be some objections. If someone turns up a study, a case study, a survey report - whatever, then I would be very interested and I keep my mind open to the possibility that there may be data down the track or data that we have missed. Wrong answer Aidan, the poor kid's in hospital, the owner charged and the dog PTS through stupid advice ANY dog, large and powerful especially, that may have the slightest inclination for aggression or unpredictable lunging MUST have a suitable neck collar if it flips it's lid. The ONLY way in that instance to subdue the dog safely is to block the dog's air, choke it out. You can't do that with a harness Your theories and principals are all well and good, but to advise head collars and harnesses as a "saftey measure" for small females with large reactive dogs as you described is irresponsible and dangerous advice. Have a look at Ed Frawley's (Leerburg) instruction how to handle dogs like this and what equipment to use, trust me.........it's not head collars and harnesses for good reason

I guess that I first began learning to train dogs in the 70's and if you didn't do what the trainer told you to do, they would scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and don't come back to training if won't listen and do as you were told Some of those old school trainers were mongrels and stressful to train under, but they were good and always had competition level dogs of their own to demonstrate their skills. We wanted what they knew and would hang on every word they said.........geez, you wouldn't dare argue with the trainer back then You know, people have a lot of choice about where to train their dog these days. I doubt many clients would hang around if the instructors scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and not come back if you won't listen Training is about communication afterall Plus, dog training is meant to be FUN! The point is, if learning how to train a dog is what you wanted to achieve, you didn't tell the trainer how to do it, you listened intently, did as you were told and trained your dog. Those that didn't, never learned to train and never ended up with well trained dog. Same applies today, the one's who won't comply with the trainers requirements and set down unrealistic boundaries for the trainer to work within, won't end up with a well trained dog either. :D

Aidan............don't forget to answer this question, we are all patientely waiting. This is the scene: One of your 45kilo female customers that you have advised to use a harness on a 42kilo dog that's just tipped over the aggression threshhold and wants to take someones head off. The dog is pulling the owner towards a 10 year old child backed up against a fence petrified that the dog is about to kill him. The owner can't physically hold the dog back and the kid is frozen in fear................what are you going to do to stop an attack in that situation when the dog is un-muzzled and wearing a harness

Catjar, seriously, I would forget behaviourists, vets and drugs until you can hire a good K9 experienced trainer to assess the dog first. Someone experienced with working breeds and GSD's in particular, what state are you in???. If the dog is fear aggressive and from a registered breeder, I would be asking the breeder why they are breeding dogs of weak nerve.

I suppose Schutzhund is out of the question

I guess they are in "the category" of the usual banned breeds. I was expecting to see Rotties, Dobies and GSD's too.

I guess that I first began learning to train dogs in the 70's and if you didn't do what the trainer told you to do, they would scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and don't come back to training if won't listen and do as you were told Some of those old school trainers were mongrels and stressful to train under, but they were good and always had competition level dogs of their own to demonstrate their skills. We wanted what they knew and would hang on every word they said.........geez, you wouldn't dare argue with the trainer back then

But sometimes the 'wrong' dog can teach you a hell of a lot more about training than the 'right' one If they love their dog and are committed to fixing the problem it shouldn't be an issue. However, I completely understand that some people get to the point of either 'fix it now or PTS' and then yes, you can only work with what's in front of you and do your best This concerns me too. If the dog has reached that point on a head collar then how do you stop it, how do you break through? A strong dog is either going to break free or break it's neck and that's a scary thought. I have never heard a more correct statement SecretKie that is so right My old GSD was one of those dogs and I had him for 15 years. Beautiful loyal and loving pet, but a viscious nasty dog towards anyone or anything that didn't belong in our family/friend pack. The amount of people including a couple of trainers who recommended I should PTS, but I fulfilled the obligation to look after him and train him as I promised I would as an 8 week old puppy. Yeah......he bit two people in his time, not seriously but enough to have caused a DD order if the incidents were reported and fortunately talked our way out of it at the time............but this old boy was a total handful of dog with an over sharp fearful defensive temperament, but I learned more from him than I could in a lifetime of nicer dogs. I would never choose another dog like my old boy, one like that is enough, but he taught me how to handle all the worse traits in the book from a large powerful dog which now I appreciate the opportunity he gave me to learn something as a case of necessity to keep him alive, safe and out of trouble.