~Anne~

Was just thinking about all of this overnight. Operating on animals that dont have any medical issues then they get PTS- correct? Wouldnt it be good if the services of vet students were offered to low income families or pensioners who can't afford alot of veterinary care? Some procedures are really costly but if the University offered a free or low price option then the that could be a huge help to the community and then students would also be able to aide the animal in its recovery. I know it soudns bizarre, but I think you will find that it would then become an equity debate. Why should people less fortunate have Vets students, with obvious risks associated with this. I am not saying I agree or disagree, but just what I think might occur.

Jo, you seem to be missing a point. The point is your deliberate use of provacative language. By the way, some on here need to stop confusing logic with objectivity.

Missing a vein can happen... although, unless things have changed a great deal, the amount of Valabarb or equivalant drawn up for a Lab would be a fair bit and I am surprised it wasn't noticed that the liquid was not going into the vein. Again though, it can happen. I would think that the amount given had caused the collapse of the veins too. It is very sad, and it may have been just pure bad luck or it may have been a Vet who misjudged the vein.

Jo, you have a talent for talking absolute rot and distorting meaning. You hide behind ambiguity. You know, as well as I do that you made this statement: Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland as an insult meant to encourage a reaction in others responding in this thread. The use of the terms "ignorant bleeding hearts" and "lalaland" are pretty self evident if you ask me. Otherwise, why use them? Why not use your 'objectivity' to articulate in a way that conveys meaning without using words that you know will cause upset?

Discussions like this always end up the same. People act in troll like manner by using emotive words (the term 'bleeding hearts' springs to mind) and no-one can accept that people have differing levels of objectivity and empathy. Being too objective can be just as dangerous. Objectifying deliberately is a convenient method of avoiding the discomfort of empathy and assist people to avoid feelings of guilt or shame. Being too empathetic leads to situations where logic is lost and irrationality becomes the order of the day. The debate is typical of this forum, and others like it though I guess.

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland. True, so true. And petty thinkers who lack empathy lead lack lustre lives oakway. Get back to the debate instead of trying to score points. Good grief. As a registered owner and breeder of pure bred dogs I believe I have every right to say what I think. What has that to do with this topic? You contribution to this thread has been nothing but petty point scoring so far. The topic is "Dogs being operated on, then killed".

Adoption program? Did the Uni actually run this? Who did the assessing of the dogs to determine if they were candidates for re-homing? Sounds fascinating. I didn't realise they branched out in such a way. It is sad that the program was stopped, at least from an education viewpoint.

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland. True, so true. And petty thinkers who lack empathy lead lack lustre lives oakway. Get back to the debate instead of trying to score points. Good grief.

Thanks for the insight. Where do they source the cadavers from?

Because right now they don't have infinite time, space or funds. Could you fit a never ending supply of dogs in your house? Leelaa - perhaps you need to come in to the real world - you have been in laalaa land for too long... Reality is there is not enough space and funds for housing unwanted animals for the rest of their lives - who do you expect to have this responsibility? Do you really think all the unwanted animals are going to live in harmony together? Real world sweetheart...it's just not possible... How rude is your post. Seriously! In the real world, babies die and people starve to death. In the real world women get raped and children are forced into prostitution. In the real world everyone dies. But that doesn't mean everyone has to or wants to say "this is reality and I must accept it". Leelaa may not share your thoughts on euthansia or on practising veterinary science on animals that are alive, but she certainly sounds to me that she understands it happens and it is reality. I have been called worse Anne - seriously - no one likes the idea of killing animals but we must be realistic here. As you know there are thousands of animals who are simply not wanted, until there is a better solution to the masses of unwanted pets then this practice will stay in place. Anyone who tries to house unwanted animals on their own are called animal hoarders - many start out with good intentions but soon end up well over their heads. The real world sucks big time - never said it didn't.. Your post was condescending and rude. Telling someone they have been in 'laalaa land' for too long and using terms such as sweetheart are not part of the debate. Wise up and learn the word "apology".

Because right now they don't have infinite time, space or funds. Could you fit a never ending supply of dogs in your house? Leelaa - perhaps you need to come in to the real world - you have been in laalaa land for too long... Reality is there is not enough space and funds for housing unwanted animals for the rest of their lives - who do you expect to have this responsibility? Do you really think all the unwanted animals are going to live in harmony together? Real world sweetheart...it's just not possible... How rude is your post. Seriously! In the real world, babies die and people starve to death. In the real world women get raped and children are forced into prostitution. In the real world everyone dies. But that doesn't mean everyone has to or wants to say "this is reality and I must accept it". Leelaa may not share your thoughts on euthansia or on practising veterinary science on animals that are alive, but she certainly sounds to me that she understands it happens and it is reality.

I understand that completely and I don't have any practical solutions - I wish I did. I am not 'condemnin' them, at least I am not trying to. But it is in my opinion that they shouldn't be using live dogs to practice on. But I do understand that that is my opinion and am greatly outnumbered on this thread as to what is a suitable method to teach students. Why? Apart from being a better teaching tool, how is it any different to the dog to be PTS before being dissected or going to sleep, being operated on, and then being PTS? Same experience and outcome for the dog? What if the lesson covered anaesthesia?

For those who feel cadavars should be used, where would the cadavars come from? Would they be frozen? Fresh?

I would think that the profs are hovering and assisting. For those that have never sliced through live flesh of an animal or inserted a needle into a vein you wouldn't realise just how difficult this can be when you first start doing it. I would think that Vet students are obviously being trained at a far higher level obviously as well. I can recall when nursing that freshly graduated Vets were novices at injecting and the simplest of things and often, it was the nurses showing them the easiest and best way. Our vets were coming straight out of Sydney Uni and at the time, they were not practising on live animals or cadavers to my knowledge which was amazing. A Vet, now lecturer at Syd Uni once commented to me how ill-prepared he was for the simplest tasks. Peter was fresh from Uni at the time.

sparky and PF, I understand they have ethics committees, but I remain sceptical. It is a healthy scepticism I believe.

There is a person I know who treats her dogs wonderfully, with great care and love shown all the time, why would any other person be different.... Universities are independant of each other. Of course there would be differences. Is there is this case? No-one knows unless questions are asked.

Yes, true. The accuracy of the statements must be questioned. Still, there are a lot of statements in that one piece that do not sound just. Where there is smoke there is fire as they say....

Not sure why they'd need to advertise - there'd be more than enough candidates available from the Lost Dogs Home. Exactly. I'd also like to know if the Uni pays for the dogs they advertise for.

I am aware of dogs dying in pounds. I have simply raised a few questions and I find it interesting that most are skipping over the things that need questioing in their rapid support for the practice. I support using live animals for education. I'd still like to know more about the program though and how it is run.

I am not overly concenred about Vet students using live animals as part of their studies. In fact, I am in favour of the practice. However, these statements concern me; A pregnant bitch? Is this one from their 'colony'? Sorry, but to allow a bitch awaiting fate of death to become pregnant is a little off. Was she pregnant when she first came in? How far along was she? Why couldn't the pups be aborted? What kind of 'practice' surgery needs to be done on infants? Where did the pups come from? Where they bred by the Uni? Were they surrendered? A dog colony? Who cares for them while they are in this 'colony' and how long do they stay in the 'colony' before being euth's? Why the hell are the dogs scared? Fabulous. Hiding where they come from suggests that allowing the information to be public knowledge will cause issue. Why? What are they hiding? So there isn't enough already in pounds in Melb being euthd? We now have to advertise for MORE? This industry has enough shit under its butt with the fact that we need hound rescues in the first place. Disgusting.

If it was at Dan Mahoney, then the local flyball or obedience clubs should be told as they use that field for their groups. KC is a condition that is not only a virus, it is also a bacterial infection. The idea of strains, whilst technically correct, misleads people to think that the dog is being vaccinated against strains and if infected, it must be a different strain. The fact is that there are numerous bacteria and viruses that make up what we call kc and they all cannot be vaccinated against. Bacteria cannot be vaccinated against at all I don't think. Therefore, even though you vaccinate your dog against 'kc' the fact that kc is a condition made up of many viruses and bacteria, your dog can still come down with symptoms of kc. They can be affected by kc many times and it can be a different virus and or bacterial infection each time. Vaccinating your dogs lessens the risk of them contracting kc and being infected with kc may build their immunity as well. Due to running the rescue one of my boys, Boof, has had kc twice. Both times the symptoms were mild and I chose not to treat. Monte has had it once, again it was very mild.

I am so sorry.

Given that local by-laws are regularly changed and each council and state is different, wouldn't it just be more sensible to tell people to check with their Council? Who on here is going to be responsible for updating the information? If it is wrong it could lead people to make costly mistakes. Perhaps a link to a page that lists the contact details of councils across Australia would be better?

Everything corssed here. I hope he gets better quickly.

Edited: *Not worth distressing the OP by adding to it. *