~Anne~

Yes, I'd give a dog yoghurt but I wouldn't be giving them tinned tomatoes or coffee though. Or restricting their fluid intake by only allowing them to lick ice.

It seems Karo syrup is a sweetner and kaopectate is a medical product for diarrhoea. I had not really known of either though before reading it in this book.

I was sorting through some old books that had come from my mother and came across a book that was published in the USA and The Netherlands many years ago (I can't find a publication date in it but I suspect it is from the 50 or 60's perhaps??). In it, I cam across this gem for treating a Pug with diarrohoea. Coffee and ice? What tha? I hope the pic is clear enough to be read.

Thanks, and what a gorgeous picture Schnauzer! I love it!!

I love the frog analogy and had never heard that before. Very true 16paws. I guess I have become immune to the reactions and this was pointed out when a relative was staying with me. Monte had a cluster and she was amazed at how calm I was. I guess I have seen too many now for it to really shock me. I feel sad for him more than anything and I wish I could stop them, but I just do what I have to do - usually, that is draw up a syringe of diazepam, grab paper towels for the drool and occassional urine spill, turn the air con onto cool and alternate sitting with him and holding him to prevent injury when he goes manic.

Anne why would I bother giving you any more information about my experiences when you are simply going to mock them and tell me how wrong I am? Why is it unacceptable for people to have different experiences to you? Why do you have to be so judgemental and dismissive? And what were you hoping to achieve by starting a new thread on seizures where you say how horrified you are about people who talk about putting epileptic pets to sleep because of low quality of life, given I used those exact words in this thread just prior about my own boy? I found that extremely offensive given that I actually saved my boy from being pts by his original owner who could not manage the epilepsy right from the get go. At least I gave him a chance when his first owner couldn't. I am entitled to share my own personal experiences and not have them judged as implausible by another doler who is neither my vet nor part of the extended household that cared for this dog over most of his life. I apologise to Kirisilin for this thread taking a negative detour. I hope you resolve the issue for your pet. My questions and comments are directed at the statements that you make in order to clarify and correct. You are the one making statements on a public forum. If you don't want people to respond, don't make them! It really is that simple. However, you are participating willingly in an open discussion on a public forum so accept the fact the people have every right to respond to what you say. I have apologised to you for making you feel 'uninformed' and explained that wasn't my intention but obviously it still grieves you. As for starting a new thread, yes, your comments triggered my thoughts at that time but do you seriously think I have not heard those comments before in the 6 years I have lived with a dog with epilepsy? Good grief, not everything is about you. Conversations and threads often take turns and new threads are created every day here in response to issues raised in other threads.

Thanks KC, Monte contiues to cluster even with both Kbr and Pb. His last levels were mid range which was great though. We had a big scare the other month when he had 4 seizures within 20 minutes and we thought he was going into status. Recently (last 12 months), he has started a new pattern and only having a single seizure and not a cluster which was great, so the sudden and quick seizures left us a little concerned. Although, as always, he threw us for another wobbly a few weeks back when he had two and there was an hour in between the two! This is another new pattern we have never had. The bolded bit is what spurned my thread. That is the kind of reasoning and comment I find common with dogs with epilepsy and I think it is really awful.

Thanks ML, I appreciate your honesty and your response. Perhaps if I hadn't lived with a dog with epilepsy then I might think differently?? However, given that I took Monte on knowing he had epilpesy and that he would be euthanased if an appropriate home wasn't found, it has altered the way I view it? Maybe I am seeking to be a 'saviour' still?

The same you would do if the dog became aggressive. Whatever that may be. I said examination, which might just mean watching closely for any signs you might be missing and having a good objective think about it. In epilepsy, it is largely the 'unknown'. I am not exactly sure of the reason for the aggression but I would imagine it is to do with the impulses and electric circuits doing something that affect the part of the brain that controls aggression. Monte is becoming more docile as he ages and as his brain becomes more affected. The brain damage is also largely unknown, but I can see the gradual change in him over the years. This cahnge may have happened anyway without the epilepsy, but he has never been free of it to know really if it is. Haven - Thats is so sad. It does sound like it may have been more than just epilepsy, and I agree that I would have considered euthanasia in this situation also.

Why though? I was hoping someone would say that, because I don't understand why people say and do precisely that. Seizures aren't painful to the dog, only to the humans who watch... except it isn't pain that we feel watching it but more like sympathy and stress.

Okay, don't read anything into this as it's a completely neutral question, but if he gets more of anything, isn't that an indication that they are having some sort of significant impact on his life? I guess I mean to say that I take any change in behaviour to be an indication that something is not right. I treat changes to more sooky behaviour as a concern. I would obviously never put a dog down solely on the grounds that they were being sooky all of a sudden, but I do think it warrants examination as much as increasingly aggressive behaviour does. In the end I think the only one that has a right to make a judgement call are the people that love the animals and live with them. If you love them you make the right choice for them regardless of what that does to you. Yes, but the seizures do impact on his life. He has an illness. Any illness is bound to have an impact. I don't mean to infer it hasn't and I have stated that his brain cells would be being killed off during each cluster. He is also lethargic at times and restless (sounds odd but it isnt with pheno) and he suffers from ataxia.' He has injure dhimself several times and he has suffered from bromide toxicity once and required emergency treatment. The drugs and his condition do have side affects. My question though is quality of life. Just because he has an illness and is on drugs in an attempt to control the illness does not mean his quality of life is poor. Monte has had epilepsy for over 6 years now. I expect that he would change as he grows old and the seizures take their toll. Having seizures puts a tremendous load on the heart too so I am always worried it will suddenly give out during a cluster. He is now 8 years old. For a dog that has had the number of seizures he has had and will have in the futre, I don't expect he will live till he is "ancient". I do hope to keep his quality of life at an acceptable level until his demise though. Monte is under the constant care of my Vets and I have every faith in them collaborating with me to ensure he lives the best life possible. His last blood work was only last week. His symptoms, reactions, seizures and life is recorded and monitored at a minimum of every 6 months with his Vets, when required with his specialist (Georgina Childs) and every day with me. We have dutifully recorded every seizure he has ever had. I have my alarm set for 5am every day of the year, rain hail or late night so that I can ensure his medication is alwys administered every 12 hours. However, it isn't about what I do, it is about the perception that a dog that has regular seizures does not have a 'quality of life'. That is the factor I don't understand. As I said in my OP, if he is happy and not in pain, is his qaulity of life such that he should be euth'd. Seizures do not hurt.

Wow, that's awful for her and for you and your family. I once found Monte at 5am squished up between the gas bottle for the BBQ and the fence. Several times we have come home or woken up to discover him limping and we have assumed he has injured himself during a seizure episode. We have a few small steps in the yard and one end of the garden is about 1m off the ground, but overall, our yard is safe and we have endeavoured to make it that way for him and because we had numerous blind rescues come through when I had the rescue operating.

I have read and heard about dogs becoming increasingly aggressive with seizures. Thankfully, Monte just gets cuddlier and more docile. On the other side of the coin I have also read about other dogs attacking the dog having the seizure and doing extensive damage, and in one case, killing the dog! My other Pugs are soemtimes curious about Monte but apart from looking at him or sniffing him, they leave him be while he is haing a seizure.

Thanks for your reply 16Paws. It sounds a little sad I guess, but I believe that my dog has had many of his brain cells killed off by his clusters. He isn't the sharpest tool in the shed and I feel he is getting worse. However, I still don't think this affects his quality of life. I am not sure when or if I will have to decide if euthanasia is the better option. I hope it is never to be honest.

I always feel a sense of horror when I hear people talk of euthanasing a dog with epilepsy or when I hear the phrase 'low quality of life' used to describe some dogs who experience it. In fact, I would say I was probably hypersensitive to these phrases and statements when used in the context of dogs with this condition. My Pug, Monte, has had hundreds and hundreds of seizures so far over his life. I mean literally hundreds and hundreds. The last count was in excess of 300. I have had comments thrown at me on the rare occassion that he should be 'put to sleep' and, I confess to taking offence to it, he is my dog afterall and I adore and love him. However, I can not agree with those who think he does not have a good quality of life. His seizures do not hurt him. He is most likely not even aware of what is happening. If he is not aware nor in pain, does it affect the quality of his life? The drugs he is on do have side affects, and I often wonder what he would be like as a healthy normal dog without them. His lethargy at times I don't believe ruins the quality of his life, although it does mean that I would categorise his life quality as 'good' rather than excellent. Good is still higher than low or poor which I would use to describe a dog in a backyard without regular interaction however. What constitutes 'low quality of life' for a dog with epilepsy for you? Is it the number, frequency or severity of seizures? The drugs and their affects? The 'stigma' attached to the condition?

I didn't intend to make you feel like an uninformed idiot and I apologise if that is how it made you feel. However, you have given out incorrect information which may lead readers to think otherwise when their dog experiences a seizure. Perhaps in future try to clarify that you are only giving the experience you personally have had with your dog. For example; "They normally lay on their sides convulsing for several minutes." *They* (which appears as though you are meaning all dogs having seizures) don't. Kirsilins dog may be having focal siezures, in which case, the dog will not 'lay on its side convulsing'. It will instead do anything form twitching, to stumbling as if drunk and even to fly catching. Anyway, I again apologise for my blunt way of responding and the fact it made you feel uniformed. Sorry, can I also just clarify this.... I am intrigued; "And our dog seemed to always know when he was going to fit. he would take himself off people or the furniture and lay on the floor." Did your dog actually go and lay down before his seizure started? Really? Like he said to himself 'uh, oh, seizure coming on, better lay down now' and then he would convulse???

Hi Kirislin, my mini schnauzer (age 12) has been an epileptic since she was about 4 yrs old. She had a couple of fits and then that was that. When she was nearly 7 she started to fit again and in clusters which is extremely distressing for all concerned. The vet put her on phenobarb and her fitting was controlled for several years. When she was nearly 10 the fitting in clusters started again, badly, and her medication was increased. She hasn't had a fit for 2 yrs, however I am seeing the side effects of being on medication. The vet also told me the same thing - keeping calm, do not restrain her, just do your best to make sure she doesn't injure herself during the fit. She would sometimes take nearly a day to come around after these cluster fits and her little body was under a lot of stress. With the cluster fits, she would have a violent fit, then come to, then immediately go into another fit and this cycle would continue for some time - very upsetting and distressing. I have made the decision that if she starts to fit again, that it is probably best now to put her to sleep. At 12 with her eyesight going, hearing going and probably things going wrong inside her now due to the medication (the vet did say that liver damage was very common with dogs of phenobarb), also she can no longer control her bladder and bowels during the night, that the kinder thing now to do is let her go peacefully. However at the moment she seems to be ok, but aging quickly. Has your Vet considered adding Bromide to the drug regime? If Pb doesn't control it, they can add potassium bromide as well which works well for many dogs.

Sorry, I feel the need to correct a few wrong things you have stated. How can anyone conclude, after only 3 months, the dog was on a maximum/correct therapeutic level of PB? Given that PB takes up to 3 months reach steady levels and the first blood samples are not normally taken until this time, I find it curious that this conclusion was reached so quickly. What natropathic drugs was the dog put on? I ask this as I have an epileptic dog and I am always open to finding ways to help control his seizures. Dogs don't actually 'know' with understanding that they are about to have a seizure. A dog may show certain actions before a seizure but as they don't apply reasoning, they're not likely to secure themselves somehwere 'safe' while they have a seizure. Incorrect. Only if the dog experiences tonic/clonic seizures will they 'lay on their sides'. There are many different types of seizures. Some merely involve a facial twitch. Therefore, your conclusion that if there is no froth then it wasn't a seizure is wrong. Also, if it was a tonic clonic, and the dog had it many hours previously, the froth may have dried and there would be no evidence of it. Again, this is incorrect. It depends on the seizure, the type of seizure and the dog. Some dogs come to immediately, within a minute, and are completely normal after a seizure. This phase after the seizure is called the post-ictal phase. Some dogs may take 24 hours beofre they return to any sense of normality. I have witnessed my dog come to immediately, and I have witnessed him take several hours. Sometimes he is tired, some times he is not. Lately, I have noticed he remains hyped up and excited for quite some hours even though he is fully aware. This would have been the pheno causing the wieght gain most likely as one of the many side affects is an increase in hunger. There is no test for epilepsy. Your Vet would have been tested for other things that can cause seizures. If there is no cause found, then epilepsy is given as the diagnoses. Kirislin - Your dog may never ever have another seizure. There is no way of knowing if he will.

Does Champet have a store?

What does SM stand for?

All I see is zest and spit and not much else.

In fact, they would possibly be the logical ones. Don't they handle some dog/cat welfare things laready such as importation or am I getting their role confused? In my personal opinion, it must be Federal or at least Australia wide. The State vs State thing already causes too many issues.

Another issue with DPI is that it is State, not Federal. Each State would be adminsitered differently. Interesting that no-one has offered anything else. I guess it is easier to criticise than to think about the implications of the cristicisms perhaps?

I used it as a rinse before on my dogs without any issue. It was a very weak solution though. I have never had any problems with communications with the Odour-go email system. Each time I have placed an order, the response has been within hours and the bottle delivered within days. I might give the odour blocks a go although my dogs would eat them if I had then anywhere they could get to them. VJB - was it you that had all the trial scents sent to them?? If so, which scent do you find the most pelasant. I usually always order talc but I might trial another. Apple sounds nice. What do you think?

I've worked for several Vets, each with a different process, and I have delivered frozen bodies to the RSPCA's Yagoona shelter when the Vet I worked for the NSW President of the RSPCA. Yagoona incinerates. One Vet delivered the bodies to Yagoona, one Vet had a contractor collect and another left it to his staff to drive the Hi-Lux to the local tip to dump them illegally. It was set up with the operators of the tip and as we drove it, we waited for the grater driver to acknolwedge us and point to where we had to dump. They then came over and covered the bodies immediately. Awful business.