Shaar

Yep, they do work. Mums dog was terrible for barking at nothing in the backyard, 3 days of having the collar on and the barking stopped completely. Now all she has to do to remind him is pick the collar up off the table and pretend to go put it on him and he runs.

Yes, probably shouldn't have used that term looking back now, lets just change it to what gives them their "individuality"

Greytmate - The X factor comment came into play because of my post sorry... With my burger shop analogy, I was saying the shop "X-Factor" was it's "Special Sauce" in the burger which in terms of dog breeding I meant as the specific breeders "Breed Type". You can get 2 breeders whos dogs look different from each other, but neither of them is wrong, they just have different breed type. I know some breeders are terribly guarded with their lines, but really, why shouldn't they be? They have put all the hard work in and don't want it all given away to lesser quality dogs... and when you sell on a dog on mains with no restrictions at all, you have to have a lot of faith in the buyer to be putting that dog to other dogs of equal or better quality. With my boy, he is not for public stud. That doesn't mean he can never be bred from, just that the breeder has to approve any matings before they are done so she can ensure her lines are being put to good use.

Black Bronson - perhaps you would understand my (and others) point of view if it were explained differently. Ok... say you own a take-away store. There is another take-away store right across the street from you. Both you and the other store make fantastic burgers... but you both use different recipes for the sauce, so half the people like your burgers, and half like the other stores. Now it has taken you YEARS of hard work to get your sauce just "perfect" You want to keep your sauce recipe a secret as it is your 'marketing edge' Now... one day you sell a burger to a customer and they run that burger straight over to the other shop. They give it to the shop keeper and the shop keeper analyzes the sauce and replicates it, with virtually no effort on their part at all. They now serve both types of sauce and take your customers. Now the basics of the burger are the same, but it's that little X factor, the 'sauce' that makes them so different. With different kennels, the dogs are the "great burger" but every breeder adds their own special 'sauce' to the breed. As a shop keeper who has worked so hard on your recipe... wouldn't you be mad that someone 'stole' it right out from under you? (sorry, burger shop was the best analogy I could come up with )

Which is precisely why Limited Register CAN be raised to Main Register upon application by registered owner and breeder of record. Funny story with that actually. I know someone who sold a dog on limited register... they FULLY explained what it meant (the dog could not be shown etc) Well, a year later the buyer of the pup came back and demanded the dog be upgraded so he could show it. The dog was not show quality. They contacted the TCA and they said that she HAD to upgrade the dog whether she wanted to or not (!!!!) The guy who bought the pup was going to take her to court so she conceded and agreed to upgrade. HOWEVER, once she told him that she charges $1600 for show dogs and he got the limited register pup for $600 he had to pay her and extra $1000 plus the $90 to upgrade, plus a few other expenses... He soon changed his mind once realized how much a show dog should have cost him.

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life. You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home I'm sorry but IMO that's terrible advice, it is far from being over the top just to have a dog on limited register. Most breeders FULLY explain what the registry means so there is no ripping off, or over the top demands going on. YES it is YOUR choice if you want to breed or show, which is why you should buy a dog papered accordingly. If you want to show, buy on main register, if you just want a pet then go with limited. These days a dog that comes with no papers at all is from a less than reputable breeder. By providing limited register papers at least you know there is a good chance that breeder is a good one and registered with the ANKC. The breeder isn't "challenging your integrity" they are covering their own @rse because I can tell you now, I can't count on my fingers and toes the amount of people who have lied to and screwed over their dogs breeder.

That is how you end up p!ssing off a lot of breeders. Yes, of course we all want to better the breed, but there is a right and wrong way to go about it. I personally wouldn't do that unless the breeder (lets call them Joe) had given me permission to do so. If I ever wanted another dog off 'Joe' again I doubt they would sell to me because I had done the wrong thing by them. Then beacuse I had done the wrong thing 'Joe' tells another breeder about me, then they tell another breeder, and another. Very soon I would have a very limited choice in what kennels I can buy from.

I don't eat any animals that are considered predators. Cows, chickens, sheep etc are all considered 'prey' animals... they don't feed off meat and they don't hunt. Dogs ARE predators, and they do hunt, so they are off my menu. Probably doesn't make sense to anyone, but that's my warped view of it anyway.

They do it with poodles, why can't they do it with every other breed? When I used to show the Minis I'd always have to go check the standard and toys peoples numbers so I would know if they were going alphabetically at that particular show, or by size.

I'm not saying that is always the case, but a lot of the time it is. As I said, it mostly to covers the breeders bum, not the owner. I know if I had spent a lot of time and effort importing bloodlines and spent years carefully selecting breeding stock, I wouldn't want it to fall in the wrong hands'

And what purpose would that serve other than to be able to wave a piece of paper around in front of your friends that says "main register" Yeah, what if they do decide to show that dog in the future... well that's a bit of bad luck on their part because they should have bought a show quality puppy in the first place. If it is on limited register, the breeder obviously doesn't want it shown or bred from. But on the flip side what if they decide to BREED that dog because it was on main register and someone from an opposing kennel wanted to get their hands on the bloodlines? I'm sure a good portion of 'general' pet owners would jump at the chance of a $1000 stud fee. I really don't understand your argument. edited for spelling

They may have just looked at the photo of the dog and though it looked nice, didn't take much notice of the handler. If it were me in the photo, I would want to know... not only because my knickers were on the internet but so I could rethink the way I stack my dog in a particular skirt

Oh yes, I remember looking at mum and dads old 6&7 trophies just thinking "wow, times have changed" Plus, they are really old fashioned wooden trophies that are now hidden in the cupboard due to their ugliness Off topic - But they threw out 2 washing baskets full of ribbons last year... I was so angry! I wanted to sew them together and make a ribbon quilt I can't sew much with my piddly 4 ribbons

I'm with t-time on this one (for the most part) I just purchased a puppy with restrictions. The dog is not at public stud and the breeder will most likely want him back to stud a litter. I have no problem with this as the bloodlines are sought after and the breeder is just covering her backside in case I do the wrong thing (which I wouldn't anyway but you never know with some people) Quality bred doesn't necessarily mean breeding quality. Of coarse every breeder would like every single puppy in their litter to be show quality but the reality is that it doesn't happen... you will get a couple of pet quality dogs in the litter. Why should these dogs not be desexed and on limited register just because their breeding is 'quality'? If you are after a pet then going with a good breeder is your best bet for health reasons, but does conformation and main register really matter when you just want a nice addition to the family? In regards to zug zugs post I think those are some pretty hefty requirements. I believe (and i state now, this is my opinion only) - it needs to be desexed Agree completely - it cannot be desexed until it is an adult and the breeder wants the option to take it back if it is of show quality (if not, then you can desex it and keep it) Uhhhh..... Not unless you are LEASING the dog, if you are buying it then certainly not. - it needs to be regularly vaccinated Of course, although I believe after 1 year of age vacc only need to be done every 3 years. - it is not allowed to be vaccinated for anything ever Ever? Or not after 1 year as mentioned above? If they are never vaccinated for anything EVER, then that is irresponsible. - it needs to go to the breeder's vet, not yours Too bad if you live interstate. Although I can understand where they are coming from.. some people prefer some vets over others... If I sold pups I would RECOMMEND a certain vet, but wouldn't force. - it can never be taken to any vet but needs to be taken back to the breeder herself if anything is ever wrong with it The breeder should be INFORMED of any problems, but I agree... vet first. - it needs to be fed on a raw diet only If the dog is yours then that's not up to them. Raw diets are good, but you should be able to make that choice yourself. - it needs to go to a groomer of the breeder's choice Again, same with the vets, people have preferences for certain groomers, but I would only recommend, not force. - no kids Under the age of 3 I tend to agree. I know that won't go down well, but in reality, all it takes is a 2 year old to pull the dogs tail and it's bye-bye child... the older the kid, the more you can teach them how to behave around dogs. And yet another disclaimer... these are my OPINIONS only (I have already been in trouble a few times for having an opinion so please don't eat me)

I think I'll just give up. No-one seems to be getting my point at all.

Well thought out answer dancinbcs That list still seems about right indigirl, as I said around $1,000-$2,000 for any breed... with a few exceptions.

Sounds like a deal

Haha, I'm a few years off being a breeder yet, but when I do, give me a call, I'll talk you into one

That sounds like the approach I would be looking for cannibal.

I never said you get put in the junk pile because you inquired about price, my beef was with people solely asking about price and nothing else. Your breeder may not have a problem with that, I'm just saying what I would look for. I have found that many people who just want to know the price of a pup above all else are just shopping around for the "best buy" I know not everyone who does that is looking for the cheapest pup, but many are and if you are just after a cheap dog then I really don't want to deal with you. My mum has had countless people calling her about poodle puppies a lot of the conversations go like this: Mum: Hello Buyer: Hi, I got your name through the TCA, Was wondering much do you charge for puppies? Mum: They are $1,000 on limited register Buyer: Oh that's too much, I'll try somewhere else *click* I'm not saying you have to be rich to own a dog, but with ANY breeder you need to have about $2,000 set aside give or take. If the dog is a bit more, then you don't have much more to save. If it is less, then hooray, use the extra to go on a holiday. I personally wouldn't inquire about a dog with any breeder unless I had that cash set aside so price really doesn't make much difference to me.

Wow, that puppet warp thing is amazing, but looks hard to use thankfully. I just used good 'ol Paint Shop Pro and a Clone brush to fix the poodles front. I'd never do that with a show dog but just wanted to give an example of the scary things that can be done... given more time it could be done so that you would never tell it had been tampered with (at the moment his 2 front feet and one of his back feet are all the same foot ) For scenic images like those on the front page it is good because quite often you take a beautiful photo but there is just something in it that makes it look ugly. I took some photos of our dogs at the beach but a couple of them had my OH's hairy legs in the background, I edited the legs out, printed them and put them on the wall.

I used to show in Junior Handlers way back when. I loved it. Personally, I think if the dog is too big for them to lift on the table then it's probably not the best breed choice, usually there are people at shows who would be happy to let kids run their dogs in for handlers. I used to show a Griffon Bruxellios of my mums friends and I used to be a very shy kid (to the point where some of mt parents friends didn't know I existed because I would sit in the corner at shows making teddy bears out of poodle hair)... it really helped me gain some confidence, especially after winning a few ribbons. This is going completely from memory so sorry if it has changed, in the State Finals you actually had to swap dogs over with other handlers so you were handling a dog you had never handled before. It was a good test to see how you 'handled' the situation. So showing a variety of different dogs would be of benefit (both large and small dogs)

perth_girl If the info is on the website for all to see then obviously asking about health wouldn't need to be your first question. My Crested breeder has her info up for all to see so I didn't feel the need to ask. My first questions to her were more related to breed type and temperament, then we moved onto health, and finally price. In some breeds there are different breed 'types' For example in Chinese Cresteds you have Deer and Cobb type, I really liked the look of the Deer type so this is where I found my opening to start a conversation and discuss the breeders dogs. I wanted to sound like I knew what I was talking about and show her that I had done my research so I could be taken seriously. Again, I'm not saying you have to know everything... I'm still learning as well, but if I had 1 dog to sell and 2 potential homes that would care for the dogs just as well as each other... my preference would be to the one who had done more research.

I could give you some perfect examples to back up my opinion of this but it would be far too obvious as to who the people are so I can't.

Bilbo, is is true that people breed Cavs ringside? I always see maybe a dozen lining up to go in the ring, but then hundreds seem to appear out of tents and trolleys, it's like magic