justin19801

Everyone get that one? I sure hope the RSPCA notes it. From the mouths of bogans.. pure gold. Something the R$PCA does to harmless family pets every day. Bogan animal haters, yes I'd agree with that.

Noice wun Ann. I'm sure BanksiaPark are happy to have you on board. 'Wats the difference?'...between a pet dog & a donkey or cow...asks Ann. I'll try to make it easy: A dog has been dom-est-ic-ated for a few thousand years to be a close com-pan-ion animal with humans. To make that work as well as possible, puppies & dogs need social-iz-ation & lots of ex-per-iences along-side humans. That's why it's not good for dog wel-fare for them to be constant-ly con-fined to a pen, like live-stock. Easy to grasp that dogs need a bowl of food.....takes higher cognitive ability to grasp the need for socialization. So why do the R$PCA force family pets to live unsocialised lives in cages? Animal cruelty like a puppy farm? Problem when we can't differentiate the abusers from the enforcers!

Today its BYB tomorrow registered breeders. The aim is toi end pet ownership. I'll be darned if an organisation little different to animal abusers tells me what or where I can get my dogs.

Absolutely not true... recognised breeds are banned or restricted in several places, all over the world. Undeniabley Zayda. Longcoat you seem to dwell in a very simplistic world. The APBT was subject to overnight restriction or banning is some places but was never a recognised breed in the first place. It has been raised before about ANKC recognised breeds banned in certain council areas, but the council bylaws of the councils mentioned did not contain any such thing by memory???. A council could easily be sued for damages banning an ANKC recognised breed overnight requiring people to get rid of their dogs...........won't happen in Australia. Breeds can be banned without compensation by simply regulating them like firearms. Dogs are property so regulating them is the way governments go. ANKC is just a club. There are plenty of breeds they don't recognise.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush, I know many AST owners who have fought the good fight since the day they got into the breed... yes there are many that do stick their heads in the sand, but you can't outright say all... I know several APBT people who chose to not fight as well... so there's people everywhere that have done it. And just because you don't see people on the forum saying what is happening, doesn't mean there isn't stuff happening IRL. I also know of AST/APBT breeders who were ostracised in the early days due to breeding APBTs. The fact is there is a wealth of case law in the US stating and supporting they are the same (includes the SBT). Most common legal definition of APBT is 25% AST. This is not rocket science and the sooner people wake up that the fight is with politicians and the R$PCA to end BDL the sooner we can get on with our lives. The truth is, the dogs matter very little, it is controlling us through our dogs.

Most of it, actually. I didn't actually say "your limited life experiences blinded you" - I said I thought you needed to see places with more than 2 dogs before you criticised. Now, what are the laws you would like to see enacted? Thanks for your concern but I have seen plenty of places with more than two dogs. You just made that assumption and I couldn't be bothered to correct you. I have many ideas for what I think should happen - but I will undoubtedly get flamed for any comments I make and will be accused of being brainwashed by PETA. You have a vested interest as a breeder - you don't want anything to get in the way of that. I have no hidden agenda - yes I love having pets as part of my family but if left with the options of "my right to own an animal" or to "end the suffering and misery and senseless killing" I would pick the later every time. And I make no apologies for that. "end the suffering and misery and senseless killing" Straight out of the PETA manual on how to end pet ownership. They kill 95+% of dogs that come into their care to end their suffering. They even had a mobile killing squad ending dog's suffering. PETA, R$PCA, HSUS, Animal Liberation, they are all after one thing ending pet ownership, to end their suffering.

Dogs are being temperment tested to death by unsound unscientific tests bought off the shelf from US testers. As for the number of dogs killed decreasing, given unsound TT and Breed Discriminatory Legislation there are no independent stats to go by. Using R$PCA figures would be like asking tobacco companies to monitor cancer deaths from smoking!

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and i kind of agree, but i guess many people believed that being a registered breed with breed clubs and active members in the CCCQ was their pass to owning the dog that they wanted, they obided by the law and proabably saw no real reason to fight a fight that didn't yet exist. We all know alcohol is a legal drug so we relax and indulge feeling guilt free because it's legal, (and seemingly ignore all the associated health problems, and say to ourselves well at least i'm not taking drugs..) but they're not going to start fighting agaisnt prohibition that doesn't exist yet..if you catch my drift. Many amstaff breeders have been supporting the anti BSL campaign from the beginning (and many owned pitbulls before hand) so i don't think we can say, "hey, amstaff breeders, you should've been prepared." they've done the right thing all along now they're going to have to fight for their dogs, all large breed owners should start banding together on this. It's going to be interesting to see what happens, i can see plenty of unpapered amstaff owners trying to prove that their dogs are lab/mastiff/staffy/boxer or whatever crosses. Actually the AST owners were the first to deny that APBTs and ASTs were one and the same. They thought they were safe but as the APBT owners kept telling them that had failed everywhere else in the world. The only way to fight Breed Discriminatory Legislation is to end it full stop. Arguing over which breed it shoul cover is a waste of time.

The only way to end BDL is to pressure governments to end it and stop donating to the R$PCA until it opposes it. It was only a matter of time before Australia followed the rest of the world i.e. APBT=AST=SBT=American Bullie= American Bulldog=Boxer=any short-haired blocky cross-bred. If GCCC calls ASTs APBTs it will take another six years to fight and thousands of dogs will die in the meantime. Perhaps we could start a movement "We're Not Gonna Take it Anymore", catchier than EDBA, no criticism intended of EDBA whatsoever.

The multi million dollar oirganisations like R$PCA, PETA, Humane Society etc. The means differ but the end result is no pets and killing dogs. R$PCA have even built kennels in which to keep the harmless family APBTs they seize without human contact. Animal cruelty to a companion animal? In my considered opinion yes. They are different branches of the same tree. The end result is the same. Soliciting funds to save dogs then killing them, in my opinion little more than a racket. Not even the mob could come up with such a lucrative racket, or could they?

A lot of people are bagging Steve Austin when he has done more for responsible dog ownership than anyone I can think of. Although he didn't mention it this time he has said in the past (paraphrased) "that he wasn't happy for someone else to tell him where and what dog he can buy". I agree entirely. The puppy farmers needed to be puniished but given there is a shortfall in dog ownership killing them didn't make any sense to me at all. The aim of the animal welfare industry is to end pet ownership. Puppy farms today, BYBs tomorrow ANKC breeders after that. The fact PETA is coming to Australia should at least open some eyes. Regulating is the best way to go as banning will not work. In my opinion there is a big problem when one can't differentiate the abusers from the enforcers.

Once again the dog killers and anti-pet activists come out smelling like roses when they're all pools from the same swamp as the puppy mills. Be careful what you ask for as it will come true.

The problem is, you (universal "you") read the media reports. Pitbulls look pretty bad. Wouldn't want one living next door. Nasty bloody things, turn in a flash and kill the kids. The majority of pitbulls are simply dogs, with the same attributes for their breed as other breeds. Sure, the boys may want to fight. I know plenty of reputable staffy breeders who tell owners to be careful about the staffy fighting. I tell buyers of boy boxers the very same thing. It is not in the nature of pitbulls to attack people. It never has been. They were never bred as a guarding dog. And the fight has been bred out of most of them anyhow. There are very few dog fighters about, and you wouldn't want to approach t hem as "a peer" anyhow. And the fighting dawgs are unaffected. As ever, they are underground, being abused still, while the nice family pets are the ones bearing the brunt of this. The pitbulls affected by BSL are not fighting dogs, they are simply family pets. Read my lips - it has nothing to do with pitbulls. Pitbulls were simply a breed which was chosen to be the first dog which was banned. THE FIRST DOG. Not because of anything they had done. More breeds have been added to the bans, and more will be added. More will be restricted, as in Germany. The American Pit Bull Terrier and the "media pitbull" about which we hear so much have absolutely nothing in common. Keep researching. I did. It's a shame you wont get to meet some nice pitbulls. I spent a day at an expo with a pitbull - all the kids had a cuddle, all the mums had a pat, and then said "oh, how cute what is it?" "AARRGGH, a PIT BULL!!!" They couldn't believe it. They'd been up close and personal with a PITBULL. Which in truth, was a nice small to medium sized, red dog with a red nose, and a good attitude, and a happy, waggy disposition, happy to meet and greet all comers. The really scary thing of the day was not the pitbull, it was the police GSD's escaping, and coming over to eat us, pitbull and all. There were some scared pitbull supporters and some embarrassed policemen!! Most of the people in favour of the bans have never had anything to do with the breed, so you tend to believe what is in the newspapers. How do you know they were GSD's Jed, did you see their pedigree papers and match the ear tatoo???. They may have been GSD Dutch Shepherd cross with a bit of Belgian Malinios in the mix???. Because their ears stick up, doesn't make them GSD's, and you know GSD's are not supposed to be savage by the breed standard. They must have been some cross breed dogs, couldn't be GSD's, all dogs can bite, it's the deed not the breed!!!. This is a stupid response Jed, but no more stupid than the responses from the APBT supporters which are always on the same lines as this which I have written purely to highlight how silly responses like this look in support of a breed Poor attempt at irony is actually sarcasm, the lowest form of wit.

Finally we agree

That was nasty and not very balanced. I try to base my opinions on solid evidence. I've been asking for numbers. Please give some indication of where the CDC statistics to which you refer can be found. I started this thread cause the anti-BSL people had been saying look at the CDC numbers. I found some numbers on the CDC website . . . those from Sachs et al. They didn't look good for the pit bull or rotti. fyi: I do not generally favor BDL or BSL , though until the present BSL situation is resolved, I support import restrictions on breeds that I think will make an existing situation worse. If, as it sounds from other people's posts, the dog fighters are using dogos and filas to come up with bigger, stronger fighting dogs, we don't need it. People wanting a good pig dog or guard dog have plenty of options as it is. I agree that BSL doesn't work well and ends out causing the deaths of many good, lovely, dogs, and heartbreak for their owners. I think those working to end BSL need to be honest in recognising problems in getting some individuals/booodlines within their breed to fit into society, and, to the extent that those problems are being perpetuated and made worse by a small group of people who love blood sport, I think breed fanciers need to come down on the group in question. As a Labrador breeder, there is no way I'm going to be able to approach a dog fighter as a 'peer'. As an APBT fancier, perhaps one who owns some awesome dogs, and who can talk credibly about bloodlines in the breed, people like you may have a chance. Attacking and vilifying people who ask honest questions is a good way to turn the undecided against the APBT. The old canard, why would one own one of those dogs except to fight it. Are Lab owners going to shoot the local birdlife at the park? Such a high IQ but so little common sense. Don't believe in BDL, except for APBTs. People who truly believe in BDL would ask for other breeds which have killed to be banned, but nope, their not APBTs.

No one is after your vote. It is fixed and in denial. Who glorifies fighting dogs. They are part of the breeds history like the Staffy. Denying it wont make it go away. The dogs are themselves the ultimate victims of abuse. The critics of illegal breeders will continue to speed and understate their tax. Perhaps their dogs shoulkd be seized and killed as well. Bad laws should be broken, or England would still be under the Raj and Apartheid in South Africa. I would prefer to act like an Oscar Schindler than a Heinrich Himmler. People will do whatever it takes to save their dogs from the abusers, no problem there. All breeds have shortcomings. Whippets being used for coursing are in the sights of some groups because of the cruelty involved.. I haven't heard anyone criticising their use, does that make them supporters? If one supports BDL we would expect them to ban breeds which have killed in Australia for a start. Nope, the silence is deafening. The APBT has paid the price because it was not well established in sufficient numbers. That's all. Now other breeds are in the R$PCA's sites. Watch this space.

I would say they are missing you. I would recommend long walks daily (plenty of exercise for you is not enough for them) and their kibble in a large kong type device while your out. Under no circumstances leave them with a bone as one will finish first and the other will guard theirs. Just my opinion and hope it helps if you choose to follow it. Let us know how it turns out so we all can learn.

The only way to reign in the R$PCA is to make it a socially unacceptable organisation and hit it in the hip-pocket, the only thing it listens to, money. It is not just pedigree dogs that are at risk but dog ownership per se. The link between animal welfare groups and anti-pet groups is well and truly proven overseas. Anyone who thinks such links end at the border are living in fantasy land and probably believe the TV stars who claim to care about the animals they then kill - to save them of course.

Sandgrubber they are used as bait dogs, to get the fighting dogs going and also used to train the dogs that do fight because they are helpless types of dogs that generally are not good at fighting, so the dogs in training win and learn to kill. there are some sick people out there, the last fighting ring that was closed down in Western Sydney 18 months ago, were found to have cages of small dogs and and medium sized dogs that were used for this purpose, Bait dogs are a marketing tool used by groups to scare people into donating to them. There is over a century of memoirs published by former dogfighters when it was all but legal and not one mentions the use of a bait dog. Fighting dogs are schooled not baited, the latter will not withstand a dog biting back. Unfortunately as the gangs have taken over dogfighting in the US the use of bait dogs has become a self-fulfilling prophesy, as it's exponents wanted it to be as the gangs believe what the racketeers are saying. If they were using bait dogs they wouldn't be stealing PBs. The last thing the poor owners need to imagine is their harmless family pet being torn apart when there is NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT.

Dogos and Filas are also abused by dogfighters. They are still rare breeds and show up as the harmless family pets they are in dog shows worldwide. If you were serious about protecting society from such awful beasts you would be calling for the banning of breeds which have killed or show up in Aussie attack stats, APBTs do neither, so it is a concern what your gameplan is? Stds are totally irrelevant for any breed as most are simply family pets and quickly lose the std, see working BCs with show lines.

The US is a large and diverse place that encourages freedom of speech. So it's likely that there are some misinformed people who think boxers are related to pit bulls. Ok .. . long ago . . . through the common ancestral wolf genes. But Chihuahuas and Newfoundlands are also related to APBTs . . . and to boxers . . . and to the whole kit and kaboodle As for the numbers, I think we're missing connection. I, and others who have made an honest attempt to form an opinon on BSL (btw, what is BDL?) and found what numbers we can. 'The numbers' we find when we look around are far from perfect for reasons that are widely and prominently advertised. They are imperfect goods, but they are goods. And time and again they suggest breed-specific problems. Your turn. Please find some numbers; fine if data are rough and have to include caveats. Anything concrete that shows that bull breeds are no more problematic than other breeds would be of great help to those of us who are, at heart, against BSL, but find a lot of evidence saying some breeds are a problem. BDL - Breed Discriminatory Legislation. The numbers are not just far from perfect but totally irrelevant for the reasons stated. Rather than present authoritative stats you quote rubbish used by ambulance chasing lawyer websites and hate sites. You ignore CDC statisticians and countries that have reversed BDL because it is ineffective. You claim to have made an honest attempt to form an opinon on BSL but have done no such thing. In my considered opinion all you have done is place yourself in the same corner as racketeers and killers of harmless family pets based solely on their looks. Have you inspected the Calgary legislation which has been shown to be the most successful in North America? Of course not. If you wish to be taken seriously then present something useful. I will be the first to back BDL and have all killer breeds removed from society if you do because I certainly don't want killer dogs of any breed in society.

Interesting you claim APBT, SBT, BTx and ASBT (whatever they are but it proves my point) are one and the same, so do I (except for BTx). In other jurisdictions so is the Boxer and any shorthaired muscular looking dog, as is the AmBulldog. I agree apples and pears is a poor comparison, chalk and cheese much better. Interesting how you misinterpret my words and think anyone has proven any point. I went up a step in the Linnean system and aggregated species into genus. I can imagine places where similar use of aggregation might aggregate Homo sapiens, H. erectus, and the the Austrailopithocenes (H something-or-other) . . or go up another notch and class us together with the chimps and gorillas to say something about some primate group. That is not to say there is no difference between us and our ancestral species or taxonomic cousings . . . or that there's no difference between an apple, a pear, and a nashi pear. Just to say we're part of a larger group stemming from a common origin -- as are apples and pears. Chalk and cheese do not share common ancestry, so far as I know. As to dogs . . . the boxer originates the Mastiff group and does not fall in the same branch of the family tree as the bull terriers. Dog family trees get messy, cause in theory, all of them can interbreed. More basically, to quote Bill Gates: "Show me the numbers." If the available data are poor, tell me where I can find better. Saying the CDC never concluded there were breed specific problems is not satisfactory. Maybe the CDC was under pressure of some sort that prevented them from taking a position. Every data set I come across points to a problem. Boxer considered a Pit Bull in the US. Other than that I have no idea what your talking about If you support BDL then as Bill Gates sais "show me the numbers". So far you haven't come up with the goods. More than likely you consider BDL like Microsoft does fines, a cost of doing business and BDL simply the cost to owning dogs, although in your case it doesn't seem to affect you so it's OK. Who says us Aussies are so laid back & only care when it affects us personally!

I assume if the R$PCA came around to seize and kill your dog whippetts you would simply hand them over coz it's the law, no abuse, arguement etc from you. What I would expect from someone with a fashion accessory, not a living, breathing loving animal IMO. BDL re. GSDs was never as bad as now and was overturned when the Minister for Customs, Don Chip, overturned it. Reason, he owned GSDs. APBT owners can't take their dogs out to show how how great they are are for fear of them being seized and killed by the R$PCA. BDL is enforced by racists and sickos who love lauding their power over others, esprcially animals. If you think you are safe from them, boy are you mistaken. The link to anti-pet ownership has already been proven. Reality check, fine-boned dogs with nervous dispositions will be banned thanks to PDE. An incompetent premier heading an incompetent government which will introduced laws he admits will overide peoples rights. Do you think he is electorally in trouble and is looking for a distraction?

The Merritt-Clifton reports - Compiled by the editor of ANIMAL PEOPLE from press accounts since 1982 anti-intellectualism at it's best as is your feeble attempt to hide the fact - quoted only by ambulance chasing lawyer websites and hate sites such as dogsbite.org. Not science, statistics or even data, just rubbish. - pushes an anti APBT and Rottweiler agenda. If you have good hard data that shows some breeds are more dangerous than others than others please quote, I certainly don't want to own a dangerous dog liable to turn on me or my family, but there is no evidence that APBTs are in that category. The Bogan statisticians here keep trying to prove it, but they still can't. By the time they get to the Merritt-Clifton Report you know they've hit rock bottom. Even Hugh Wirth is on record last year as saying herding dogs are the most dangerous, a slip-up no one has picked him up on.

My point about BDL exactly, it's not about the dogs but a genuine dislike of the owners who tend to be ethnic and lower middle to working class. The number of times I've heard "It's the Lebs in Sydney who give them a bad name" from white middleclass anglos is beyond a joke. Ditto on the last point. BDL is the shoehorn which will fit anti-breeding legislation thanks to the PDE doco. Whippetts will be on the hit list.