Mogwai

Another troubleshoot question for the LAT:

We've been practising at home with a toy and he seems to have the concept down. But if I try on a dog at the park he just isn't interested in what I've got. I can use roast chicken and get over a 100m away and he will still just stand there and stare. It's like if he can even see another dog that is enough to put him over the threshold. Am I moving too fast and increasing the criteria too much? Should I forget about other dogs for the time being?

And even when he is in a calm state he seems like he could take or leave the food anyway. I just really wish I knew how to motivate my dog.

Start off by getting him used to working enthusiastically for food at home. You need to teach him this first, cut his meals in half and use the other half for training.

I mostly just use normal food. It is consistent and healthy, and a good barometer for whether they are ready to be working in that environment or not. 'Make haste slowly' was the advice my mentor gave me.

There really are no dogs who are not motivated by food (unless they are sick). Evolution knocked all the non-food motivated dogs out thousands of years ago.

Aside from a hungry dog are there any other things I can do to increase food motivation?

Mogwai, I think you should embrace the boring foundation side of Control Unleashed. Games like LAT for some dogs are not really appropriate until you've done the basics with them. Things like the relaxation protocol, whiplash turns and leave it, default behaviours and automatic reorienting to you after going through a door and the likes. When these are second nature, they will all come to your rescue when you get out into the real world and face exciting things. It doesn't take that long if you are dedicated, and if you do it straight off the mark you will get the maximum effect of CU later down the track when you start playing the games.

I expect the reason why your dog can't do things like heeling on cue when he's faced with an exciting environment has more to do with high arousal than anything. There are lots of gems in CU about bringing arousal down and being able to cue your dog to calm themselves. Teaching your dog to take a breath on cue has been hugely useful to us.

Here's a video of Leslie demonstrating some of the games with her dogs. It shows how attentive they are to her. This attentiveness doesn't come just from playing things like LAT. It comes from a lot of foundation work getting the dogs used to paying attention to her and being rewarded for doing so.

ETA And Aidan's advice for getting your dog working for food is great. In the past I've started with really good food in a quiet, safe environment and used that as my foot in the door. It takes very little time to get a dog working for any kind of food that way IME. Like, a week or less. Taking it on the road is a delicate matter. Start off asking for really, really easy things regardless of what you know they can do at home. Like whiplash turns. Move slowly to harder or longer behaviours. Don't get frustrated if it falls apart. Just go backwards a step or two and take it more slowly still.

What would be the best way to manage any unwanted behaviour in the mean time while I solidfy the foundation work?

And thanks everyone for the replies. :D

The Spotted Devil is it your dally that I have seen make appearances on some of the K9Pro videos? If so you make me weep with envy! :laugh:

It sounds very much to me that your dog does not know or understand what 'heeling' means, teach him that and your problems will be a thing of the past.

I don't think it is matter of him knowing how to heel. He can heel quite well with good focus on me but we come unstuck around distractions. It is really his whole outlook on environmental stimuli that we struggle with.

Great post TSD :) Mogwai I would recommend picking up a copy of Control Unleashed (there's a DVD as well as a book if you are a visual learner), which has lots of strategies in addition to LAT for building focus and relationship, setting up environmental cues for behaviour etc. mostly through simple games.

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If it makes you feel better all the kelpies I come across are acting like yours.

Yes :laugh: whenever we get together with other kelpies there is one dog focussed on a ball and the rest all line up behind with laser-eyes on her hips ready to chase at the slightest movement!

My copy of Control Unleashed just arrived in the mail! Might have to have a look for the dvd too.

Yep! He's a typical blasted Kelpie, so full of potential and yet so very, very frustrating! :laugh:

He may not be a foody dog but it may be that you are using the wrong food. I thought I was being so clever one day using raw steak and the dogs were not fussed at all! But cat kibble, well that is the best apparently.

If it makes you feel better all the kelpies I come across are acting like yours.

He can be a bit picky about foods. Honestly I think I've tried everything with him, cheese, steak, kibble, cabonossi, liver treats etc., etc. The only time I get really good food motivation from him is if I do some training at his feeding time. If he were interested in a tug toy, or something similar then I could use that, but he really has no interest in tug toys. He likes herding his soccer ball but I can't really stick that in my pocket. I would love to be able to do something with him but I'm apparently just not interesting enough!

Another troubleshoot question for the LAT:

We've been practising at home with a toy and he seems to have the concept down. But if I try on a dog at the park he just isn't interested in what I've got. I can use roast chicken and get over a 100m away and he will still just stand there and stare. It's like if he can even see another dog that is enough to put him over the threshold. Am I moving too fast and increasing the criteria too much? Should I forget about other dogs for the time being?

And even when he is in a calm state he seems like he could take or leave the food anyway. I just really wish I knew how to motivate my dog.

Sticky would definitely describe me dog! It would really be great if we could overcome this because it is really impeding his progress.

I have conditioned him to both the word "yes" (i.e yes means treat)and the clicker, but is the clicker better to start with as the sound cuts through a little better?

I started a bit of the LAT training on todays walk (as well as some using a toy yesterday). I think I failed today! There was just too much going on around us today and I stuggled to keep him under the threshold (which apparently is only about a football field). Is it ok to use the treat to lure his focus back to me or should I just move further away?

Is it good to 'jackpot' so the dog doesn't immediately go back to looking or in this case does it not matter?

I agree with superminty that LAT or another automatic attention game would be better than a cued 'watch' command, I have found it to be much more effective for dealing with unwanted behaviours. My 2 love food, but to use any motivator when the dog is highly aroused you have to work with it first so that the dog can think and pay attention when that aroused, you have to start small.

I think some work on getting him to focus on working for you/with you would help, using either food or toys. I have found it is more than teaching a 'watch' command :laugh: and it has taken me a while to sort out with my fellow (he had a tendency to run out of the ring in agility, sometimes to visit people)

I had quick search for the look at that game superminty mentioned. So if I've understood it correctly, I would start the behaviour far away from other dogs so as to keep him under the threshhold, mark for looking and treat when he returns his focus to me (or would I mark and treat at the same time as he returns his attention to me)?

On a different note to other advice - have you done any work on getting him to focus on you? What training do you do with him?

I've done a fair bit of focus training with him using the 'watch' command, rewarding him for checking in, I'll take him out on his long line and wait for a moment when he isn't paying attention and run in the opposite direction (he has actually become quite good at making sure he doesn't 'lose' me). It definitely needs more work around distractions. I did take him to formal obedience for about a year, but found after making some progress he just started sliding backwards and getting more and more distracted by the other dogs and I felt that he was just habitualising bad habits. So now I use our walks to do some training, as well as some trick training at home.

Dogs really are his 'kryptonite' in terms of distractions. He would much rather herd and/or play with other dogs than listening to me. I've struggled to find a motivator for him as food just doesn't really cut it when he is excited and unfortunately he has no interest in tugging. Unfortunately I don't know much about it but I think he would probably benefit from training in drive.

The real solution is that you need to get control over all of his desires and dreams.

If he is never going to be a herding dog, thats fine, you need to be able to speak to him and he listens NO MATTER WHAT.

If a dog has strong instincts which he sounds like he does, if there is no intention of him being trained as a working dog, then it is best no to let him have the opportunity to express those chasing/working traits. Good obedience is more important.

Once you switch that instinct on, you need PERFECT recall and control of him or it may very well manifest into car chasing, cat chasing pushbikes going past, jogging people etc.

So think very carefully before allowing him to experience something you will never be able to satisfy in him.

That being said, he still needs an exercise and mental training regime that will keep his mind and body exercised. Depending on what you want to do, there is other sports you can do.

If you decide to try some sheep or cattle work, you need to get a 100% reliable recall first. If you have an average recall in general, it will prob drop to 10%recall when he is on stock. That is not good enough, both for his safety as well as the stock. You need to be able to call him off of things get too hectic or dangerous for the sheep or him.

His recall is something I try to reinforce every time I take him out. I certainly wouldn't say it is 100% but most of the time I can call him away from whatever he is fixating on.

I should mention that aside from this issue he doesn't really 'suffer' from any stereotypical bored working dog behaviours. He is a calm house dog and I can have him sit quietly under a table at an outside cafe etc.

Do you know of anywhere around Orange I could take him to do some herding?

Just wondering if I could get some advice about my 2 year old kelpie who has a habit of stalking/herding other dogs and to a lesser extent people when out on a walk? He isn't aggressive but he gives a lot of hard eye, puts his head down, ears back and will pull/strain on his lead a bit, which understandably some people esp. with smaller dogs find intimidating and/or rude by canine etiquette standards. Is it possible to curb his instinct? I’ve been trying to get him to focus on me but honestly I just don’t know if I can give him anything that is more rewarding than this behaviour. On top of that his brain seems to just switch off anyway.

Thank you everyone for your help. I must admit I kind of hit the panic button when it happened thinking of all the worst possible outcomes. All my other dogs have been great at the vets. But I guess young puppies are just instinctual in their reactions to pain.

I guess I can only keep working with him and hope for the best.

Poor little fellow to have all that happen to him all at once. What breed is he? When he goes to puppy preschool don't let him be bullied by the other pups but don't baby him either. I hope it all works out, & where are the photos?

Thanks, he's a Kelpie. Definitely not the start to things I wanted for him. I'm really hoping he will be able to get past all this.

Thanks for your replies. I will definitely be taking him for some "happy" vet visits.

Also you can get them used to a finger going into their mouth by putting something nice on it like vegemite. Comes in handy when needing to give a pill.

This sounds like a great idea and something I hadn't thought of.

is he ok with the receptionist, or is the vet the only one there?

He is fine with the receptionist and was very happy greeting and wagging his tail and was also fine with the vet until she put the scope into his ear. His puppy class is at the vet clinic so that should hopefully provide some positive associations.

I was hoping to get some extra advice about my 12 week old pup. Unfortunately every trip to the vet so far has been a painful experience for him. His first trip to the vet was after hurting his leg in play with our other dog (he growled when the vet was manipulating his leg) the second time he had an insect sting in his ear which was quite obviously causing him a great deal of pain. On his last trip to the vet for his vaccination he snapped at the vet when she was trying to scope his ear.

I have contacted his breeder and they have since seen him and felt it was a normal reaction to pain and did not consider that he has any serious behavioural problems but suggested making trips to the vet a positive thing by just taking him and giving him treats. I also contacted a behaviourist who gave me the same feedback. I have also been trying to desensitise him to being examined by touching his ears, feet and looking at teeth and eyes. However, I’m concerned this may have had a lasting effect on him and that he feels his first line of defence should be aggression. I’m quite upset that this has happened as I’ve been trying very hard to do everything right by him i.e. crate training, lots of socialisation, clicker training, making him sit and look at me before feeding etc. He will also be starting puppy classes next week. Is this something that he is likely to overcome? And is there anything further I can do or should change?