Chocolatelover

Man talk about defensive. Who actually labelled anyone here as a puppy farmer??? I would think three to four dogs would be the most that someone could care for to a high standard - and this would be someone without children with reasonable working hours. But I base that on someone who socialises and exercises their dog every day, feeds them a high quality diet and spends quality time with them - cared for as a companion animal deserves to be. I wouldn't purchase a pup from a breeder that kenneled their dogs. And whoever can afford to pay people to "work" in their kennels from their own pay packet while not making a profit from their dogs - can you tell me where to find one of those jobs. I am not saying that making a profit is necessarily wrong - it's just that most people seem to talk about the "losses" they make as ethical breeders. Few people seem to admit to making any money from it. It just seems to me that the more I read I get the impression that as much as breeders abhor puppy farmers, they are more worried about protecting their own "rights" to breed than they are about stopping the puppy mill industry. I think any legislation should focus on reducing numbers of puppies brought into the world - not just chipping them and registering them so we can monitor them as they are passed from home to home and then possibly PTS through no fault of their own. Good on the ACT - bring on this legislation and work on enforcing it.

If a dog jumps on me it gets my knee firmly planted in it's chest. If I have my child with me it gets my foot in it's face. One of my dogs is a jumper, there is no excuse for allowing it to jump on people in parks. Dog parks are no place for kids. Throw the baby in a pram, clip your dogs on a lead and go for a walk. I am surprised they didn't bill you for the dry cleaning, I would have! I have to agree with Clyde here. Everyones space should be respected and allowing your dogs to jump on someone else is very disrepectful. Doesn't matter whether you are in a dog park or not. It is a public place and everyone should be able to move around freely without disturbance. I would have been horrified had I saw the models get jumped on. People with no respect are the reason that people like me have been driven away from dog parks Everyone except for the children you mean - because Clyde said they shouldn't be in this public place

Gosh Italmum - this is getting ridiculous, your kids will be left home before you find the "perfect" pup. No wonder people go to pet shops and BYBs!!! Waiting for three years for a pup if you don't want to show or breed seems a bit over the top. If you find a pup that is health tested and has been raised in a family environment and take him into your family at eight weeks, put in the effort into socialisation, training and exercise - I reckon you have a good chance of getting a pretty good dog. We have raised three pups since having our children and they have all turned out to have very similar personalities - which is most likely to be a product of the environment in which they were raised. And if you are proud of the way your children have turned out then you have every right to brag about them. You sound like you have done a good job with them and anyone with children knows that it is just a little bit more challenging than raising a pup. When there is a dog attack in the news people like to talk about how kids should know this, that and the other about a dog's nature but how the hell are kids supposed to learn when you can't even find someone who will let you buy a pup from them. Breeders must be overlooking a lot of great homes if so many are rejecting people with kids. There are 46 breeders listed on dogzonline and many say they have pups available now. Why do they say this if there are huge waiting lists? The world has gone mad I think. Good luck with finding your pup and I am sure he will have a wonderful home

Yeah, I wish there was a simple answer to it all. But maybe if they enforced permits, chipping, numbers and registration then it would all be more effective. I think. Like I said, it really would be so easy to nab these people, everywhere you look you see advertisements for pups But if ethical breeders don't make money out of breeding - which most claim - then how do they afford large numbers of dogs? How do they care for them, love them, exercise and socialise them and hold down jobs to pay for all of this. Purely curious that's all as I struggle sometimes to look after my family and two dogs.

Yeah I do get what your saying. But I guess that applies to most laws. People drive cars unlicensed and get away with it - but it doesn't mean we should abolish licensing laws. And how easy would it be to catch these BYBs - phone the number in the paper, say you want to buy a pup, go over to pick it up and ask for their permit. Oh - no permit - here's your fine then. Where are the pups microchip numbers? Oops, another fine. And good for the economy cause it would create jobs and rack up big revenue in fines

If people want to desex their pets, that's great - if they feel it is the best thing for their pet and their circumstance. Emotional black mail should not be used to push people into making a decision about their pet (s). The cold hard facts are that over 250000 companion animals are PTS every year because their aren't enough good homes but people just keep producing puppies and kittens. If it stops people thinking that they'll have a litter to "calm their dog down", "let their children experience the wonders of life" or just because "she's such a nice dog" then that's good enough for me. People need to know and accept that if they bring more kittens and puppies into the world then they are responsible for them. I don't see it as emotional blackmail - dog savvy people that choose not to desex their pet but keep them contained and don't add to the unwanted pet population probably wouldn't feel "emotionally blackmailed" as they do the right thing. I have heard people suggest that people dropping their pet off to an animal shelter should be made to watch them be PTS - is that emotional black mail or making them accept the consequences of their actions? If we don't do anything because we might make the poor humans feel bad then what hope is there?

Can I ask out of curiosity why you would prefer no permits or restrictions on numbers? If a back yard breeder is turned off breeding by having to pay $300 for a permit then isn't this a better place to start than saying they have to be chipped and registered once they have all ready been brought into the world??? The problem with this in Brisbane and surrounding shires is this: To get a permit, you MUST belong to the CCCQ or Greyhound body. Without that membership, you cannot get a breeder's permit. You MAY be able to apply for excess dog permit, but I am not sure about the nitty gritties that need to be done (desexing etc). BYB cannot get that permit, so they already save $200/year in permit fees. Being a member of CCCQ, you pay about $40/dog/year for registration. Whole dog is about $90/year/dog. In Brisbane, you can only have two dogs without a permit - four with a permit. This paints a bad picture. Dogs are unregistered with local council No permit is obtained to breed or necessarily have more than two dogs. Depending on your neighbours and the type of dog you have, I am sure you can "hide" 4 dogs easily especially if they do not bark or cause any other nuisence behaviour. You advertise in the local paper using a mobile number or a free website dedicated to selling animals You are untracable (compulsary microchipping, vaccination, etc) You do not have to abide by any code of ethics from an association You meet prospective buyers at a neutral area and not on the property (quarantine reasons or other BS reasons) The only way a BYB is caught if council bothers to chase them up (either by their ad in the paper/online ad) or someone makes a complaint about that person. No wonder BYB is rife! Meanwhile Registered, Ethical breeders pay the council permits/registration, ANKC association fees, health test breeding stock, vaccinate, microchip, offer lifetime support to puppy buyers AND (for most) let puppy buyers come to the property to see puppies, mother, relatives etc. OK I'm a bit confused (Doesn't take much!) I was actually referring to the ACT law that Diva was talking about: "You can't keep an undesexed dog without a special permit. I can't remember the fee for the permit, but the discount for being a member of a canine association makes it affordable. It's pretty steep without the discount though. If you sell an undesexed dog you have to advise the name and contact details of the buyer." So unless you join a canine association the cost of the permit will be in the 100s (from what I understood). I was actually questioning why this was seen as a bad thing? This is sounding different from what you are saying happens in Queensland where you are unable to purchase a permit if you are a BYB and do not belong to a canine association???

Good on you italmum Kids and dogs always seems to be a hot topic for debate but IMO if we want responsible dog owners of the future then they need to be involved from a young age. Young children that are taught to respect animals and be involved in their day to day care (mine even have to pick up the poops) will be more likely to grow into repsonsible caring adults who value their pets. And that is what this world defintely needs more of and good on you for being both a great Mum and responsible (potential) dog owner

Don't agree with this though. When I was looking for my Cocker my girls were fairly young - oldest was 8, youngest was 18 months old when she came to us so they were quite a bit younger when I first started the search (took a looooooooooong time to get my girl :D ). I don't know the answer to why you aren't having much luck - it might just not be 'your time' There will be a pup/dog out there for you that IS the right one i believe in fate...and i am really starting to think its not my time ;) My childrens ages are 4, 2 and 1...I tend to get the how do i cope now from ppl..and then it begs the question how will i cope with a dog aswell..You just do. and it wont make a difference to me , The dog will be spoilt rotten and have 5 people after its attention. I have 5 young children and cope perfectly well with our puppy!!! I find the more children you have the more organised you are. ;) So true! Personally if I were a breeder I would like families with young children. I see how much enjoyment my dogs and kids get from each other - always someone to play with. Plus, even though we haven't been overly vigilant (OK - really slack) in our training with our eight month old lab he just seems to "know" the routine. Although he really is getting to big too hop in the bath with the kids Although I do admit there are a lot of scarey kids out there so careful screening would be required!!!!!!!!!

;)

Possibly a UTI but if left untreated can cause kidney problems. Definitely vet - and let breeder know straight away. Good luck with your pup.

I had no idea dogs could be allergic to chicken but you are the second person in two days to suspect it!!!! A lady at the dog park I go to has an 18 month old beagle and she has spent an absolute fortune on trying to find out what causes her dog's itchiness and dry and flaky skin (inlcuding sending samples to America). After seeing three specialists she took her off chicken and everything has cleared up - she has taken her off all medications and steroid injections. Good luck with it becandcharh - I hope it as simple as monitoring her diet for you too.

Kennel cough can be caused by several airborne bacteria and viruses. However, most cases of kennel cough are actually caused by the bacteria Bordetella bronchiseptica (but also by Canine Distemper Virus and Canine Parainfluenza). This is why vets will often give antibiotics as it will clear up the infection more quickly if it is indeed caused by the bacteria. My dog has had it twice and has recovered quickly without intervention. Hope she is feeling better soon ;)

Do you know anything about how she was raised? Maybe she has been fed in a "free for all" type arrangement and is not sure of her place in her "new pack?" Perhaps like Gretel said you could feed her well away from the other dogs until she is more sure of herself. Congrats on your new pup

Can I ask out of curiosity why you would prefer no permits or restrictions on numbers? If a back yard breeder is turned off breeding by having to pay $300 for a permit then isn't this a better place to start than saying they have to be chipped and registered once they have all ready been brought into the world???

Since I doubt that the laws are going to change anytime soon to stop selling/breeding companion animals like pieces of meat, I think the key is public education. And I felt that the story didn't really make people aware that they should put a lot more thought and effort into buying their pets. A bit off topic but I read an article once about the dancing bears in greece. Because they brought in so much money for the tourism industry the powers that be were never going to stop it. So the animal activists began educating the potential tourists and people began to boycott because of the extreme cruelty that these bears were subject to (and still are in some countries). Today there are no dancing bears in Greece. I really believe in the power of the people and if people would just stop buying their pets from these people then there is no money to be made. I am astounded by the number of people that have no idea about puppy mills or mass farming of dogs and cats. I have that "Where does my puppy come from" poster on my fridge and most people who read it say they had no idea. My T-shirt that says "The 10 top reasons to have your pet spayed or neutered were just killed in a shelter" is pretty effective too :p So I felt a bit disappointed that the program almost attempted to show "two sides to the story". And since the problem is that a vast majority of people still believe that if you want to buy a pet you go to a "pet" shop, I thought they maybe could have presented alternatives about where to source your family pet - that is, rescue or ethical breeder. I realise the "ethical" part is not so easy to come by but it may have got people doing a bit of research. I felt it lacked that *shock* factor to make people really sit up and take notice. And then to have people on the show condoning or excusing what is going on is just so wrong in my opinion. Still any awareness is good so hopefully it will contribute to spreading the word

Then it would also be discrimination not to let your dog in a restaurant, on public transport etc by your reasoning. As far as I am aware their are only anti- discrimination laws for humans, none for dogs yet. I am just wondering how we will enforce the "no kids at dog park" laws - a bouncer at the gate maybe? Seriously, my dogs love the dog park and I would never give this up. And using the dog park as time out from the kids as someone suggested would be wonderful if we all had someone to look after our kids while we went there. Good suggestion but not very practical for most of us.

Agree Odin-Genie. Except that according to the sign all the dog park's we have been to, the onus is on the dog owner to ensure their dog does not cause harm to any animal, person or thing. I have had to leave quite often because people like to eat their meat pie on the bench in the dog park or someone comes in with a pram where the basket at the bottom is filled with tasty kiddie left overs. And my beagle, no matter how much training, cannot understand why he is not entitled to some of this food So easier to just go. To say that children should not be allowed though is ridiculous and discriminatory. So if a single Mum owns a dog and has three children under school age, then her dog will never get any off leash exercise because other people can't ensure their dog's behaviour? As a parent, even if the onus is on the dog owner - I see it as my responsibility to protect my child as I would not want them living with something that I could have prevented. As a dog owner, if I see my dog going near a toddler (there are quite a few at our dog park) then I go and supervise my dog and make sure he doesn't start licking faces or knock them over with his wagging tail Yes, a lot of parents just stand around and talk - but so do a lot of dog owners!!!!!!! To the OP - you have every right to take your child with you. When I take my kids I never let them take food and they know never to try and take a toy/ball off a dog or approach a dog because they want to "pat" it. When the kids were really little I would pick them up if dogs were having zoomie time and I thought it could end in disaster. Now they know to get out of the way really quickly and stand close to the fence!!! But you sound like a responsible Mum for even asking the question and there is no reason that if both parties act responsibly that it can't be a pleasant experience for everyone.

I agree. An off-leash dog park is for the dogs. Some owners would feel uncomfortable that there are kids present in case their dog bowled them over and may feel as tho' they must leash their dog. What is the point of an off-leash dog park then? It's not fair to the other users of the off-lead park. Please take the kids to a playground with your dog for an on-lead walk and visit the off-leash park without the kids But I have heard people on this forum say that you should ask people at an off-lead dog park if it is OK for your dog to approach their dog. Apparently they have the right to be there even if their dog doesn't like other dogs and the onus is on you to have your dog under perfect control. By that line of thinking - your dog should not approach the child unless you check with the parents.

Yep - Tuesday night

We got our first lab pup when my kids were two and three. He adored the kids and I think they needed time out from him more than the other way around He always wanted to be where they were and I taught them straight away that pups were not for picking up or being rough with. He was always very gentle with them and would "wrestle" with my son in an entirely different manner to my husband. They were involved in the feeding, walking, care bits too - not just the fun stuff. Unfortunately we lost him at three years. We got our beagle pup when the kids were 5 & 6 and most recently our lab pup last year. He is eight months now and has an almost identical relationship with them as our last dog. Personally, I love the bond that develops between the kids and dogs - as long as the kids are taught to respect them (which is exactly how yours sound ) Even when we are out walking and go past their school where the all the kids are playing they both get so excited and seems to "look" for them and are reluctant to keep going. Our lab sleeps with my daughter and the beagle with my son Your kids sound great and you a great Mum so don't rule out a pup totally!!!!!! A lot of work but the end result is worth it.

Oh and I found this pretty astounding...... when I was talking to my vet about my preference for a 16+ week vaccination she said I really didn't need to as the company was so confident of the schedule and the effectiveness of the vaccine that they were covering the costs of any dog that contracted canine parvovirus after being vaccinated!!!!!!!!

My beagle has always been vaccinated against kennel cough yearly but has caught it twice - once from neighbours dog and once from a dog at the dog park (we think). Although from memory "kennel cough" is caused by a bacteria primarily (the Bordatella part of the vaccination) BUT can also be caused by viruses. The parainfluenza part (C4) protects against one type of viral kennel cough but there are other viruses that can cause it. Trouble with titre testing too is that it depends on the method by which it is done in the laboratory. My job involves doing human antibody titres and two different people doing them can get very different results!!! I don't like tests that involve human error when it comes to my dogs health As for the maternal antibodies - I thought that the bubs were protected because Mum would be exposed to what babies are, levels in Mum would rise immediately and be passed onto babies. Therefore passive immunity from maternal milk is provided only if Mum has appropriate levels in her system. Hence, the vaccination at six weeks - this is in case there were not appropriate levels in the mothers milk. If there were, pup will probably not seroconvert but will be protected anyway. If not, hopefully pup will mount a response even though the immune system is not fully developed. By 16 weeks the thought is that the immune system is better developed and the absence of maternal antibodies will ensure that a very high percentage of dogs will seroconvert. Of course, some will never seroconvert (non-responders) as for humans also.

Yes I do realise that they use the fast growing breed (broiler chickens) but they still use artificial light to make them grow faster (fatten them up quicker, sell more, more $$ for greedy humans). This is common practice on large scale farms. The mortality rate is much higher than if the birds were feeding/sleeping naturally as they do grow too quickly and their skeleton cannot support them. Never underestimate the power of humans to take full advantage of any situation

Lots of good evidence points towards the 3 canine core modified live vaccines producing at least several years of protection, possibly life long protection, in most animals after the initial puppy series. But not all vaccinations cause lasting protection for an animal, even if the animal does seroconvert. Some do, some don't. It's not an unbreakable rule that seroconversion after a vaccination = lifelong protection. I could name several production animal vaccinations off the top of my head where the body demonstrably doesn't retain protective immunity indefinitely (despite what the titre test may originally say). But just because a titre test shows there are no demonstratable antibodies lurking around does not mean the animal is not immune. The memory cells are responsible for the amnamnestic response which is what would protect the animal if it is resensitised. Proving that an animal seroconverts ensures you have stimulated a response and the animal will then have memory cells for this atigen. Having no antibodies present in a titre test three year on does not mean that the animal does not have immunity. I think you misunderstand me. Of course an animal may still be immune to a disease without showing a current antibody titre. However, I'm not talking about serology tests. I'm talking about animals catching a disease that they have previously been protected against. Since some animals do not remain immune to some viruses even after natural infection (e.g, pigs & foot and mouth disease, cattle & papular stomatitis, sheep & contagious pustular dermatitis), it's not really surprising that every viral vaccine doesn't cause permanent immunity either. Luckily, the 3 canine core vaccines seem to protect the vast majority of dogs for at least several years. However, there's no cut and dry rule that immunity from vaccination always lasts forever. Yes but the second time an animal gets an infection it is usually less severe - and this is due to the amnamnestic response. Same with vaccination - children who are vaccinated against chicken pox may very well still get the disease but more often than not it is not as severe as in children who are not vaccinated. There is never ever a 100% chance that an animal will not contract a disease for which they have been vaccinated. Oh, and I do the three yearly vaccination for my dogs (recommended by my vet). I am not against vaccination at all - I would rather give an extra vaccination than risk anything. It's just that I don't think titre testing is the be all and end all and I have seen many examples of this with human Hep B titre testing.