m-sass

Snook, that's exactly what you did and was the nature of your post to tell us how your experience with different methods from different trainers affected your training progress on the theme that the pack leader and aversives model didn't work, more than likely because you didn't follow the procedure that was prescribed properly??. What I advocate which I will make very clear is a "balanced" training approach meaning experience in applying all quadrants and the willingness to do so when required. My point is, you can't train every dog "successfully" with positive reinforcement at every stage of ingrained misbehaviour that a dog may have developed. There are plenty of instances where aversive training is the best and fastest remedy for the dog and trainers who refuse to accept this IMHO is a misjustice to the dog's rehabilitation process to support a method over the best interests of the dog and owner. Perhaps ask Mark Singer how many Delta rejects he's saved from Euthansia where their methods didn't rehabilitate aggressive dogs who they declared untrainable??.

We are not talking about fear aggression Snook if that's the diagnosis of your dog's behaviour?? What are you telling us that Mark Singer failed to povide the right training advice and now you have someone else?? I didn't name anyone m-sass nor am I denigrating anyone's training methods. I am merely pointing out that the "namby pamby" methods as you call them can have amazing results with both bull breeds and aggression and that aversive methods aren't necessarily the best for all dogs. According to both behaviourists I've seen the majority of dog aggression is fear based and yes, both consider Justice to be fear aggressive. We are currently being helped by Amy from Advance Behavioural Training. ETA: I note that you didn't actually respond to my query about how you would explain our progress using positive training methods? I don't know Snook, it's a complete mystery that a trainer with the experience and profile of Mark Singer proved in your situation of less value than a Delta trainer?? Sometimes though as people have pointed out on a few occasions, if the owner/handler isn't comfortable or confident in carrying out methods prescribed can amount to failure especially if there is a mindset against aversives when their default instincts are to mamby pamby their dogs perhaps??. What I can tell you from my own experiences and what I have seen on numerous occasions, dogs that have been rehabilitated with aversives that positive trainers couldn't address successfully, but ideally what is best, is what best suits the particular dog.......no one methods fits all IMHO aversives or positive.

We are not talking about fear aggression Snook if that's the diagnosis of your dog's behaviour?? What are you telling us that Mark Singer failed to povide the right training advice and now you have someone else??

Unskilled at what I started training seriously in 1974 and won my first trial entered in 1977 OMG dog trained on a choker though Given that dog training isn't the rocket science many like to make out it is, in 38 years as I have experienced, you do tend to learn something about dog behaviour believe it or not :D This post is just one of hundreds of your efforts that are so incredibly risible, the only possible conclusion is that you're labouring under the Dunning-Kruger Effect. What you're saying here is that your solution to the problem of dog aggression in a Bull breed is to put the dog in a prong and let him lunge at another dog so that you can "teach it some consequence"? You seriously think that "a good ol hard as nails bull breed" in full fight drive is going to notice your silly little prong collar any more than he'd notice a harness or perhaps a politely phrased "please stop"?? 38 years of dog training and that's your solution? Just goes to show you can't fix stupid. :laugh: It would appear that you're functionally braindead, and thus I have no further interest in interacting with you. Ohhh, that's your problem Wobbly didn't like my Bull breed comment......perhaps you should ask the professionals who need fight drive in a working capacity why they use GSD's and Malinois and not Bull breeds......there is a reason for that :D The rest of your post, who cares pffff.

As a pet owner, I'd be safer putting my trust in someone with runs on the board dealing with dog aggression over my own interpretation of what's going on or the advice of people who've never met me or my dog. Get it wrong and you're talking about the life of the dog and the safety of the owner. That's the magnitude of the risk. Yeah......I have seen some "runs on the board" from "fan club" trainers and the performance of the dogs trained were absolute crap. Dog muzzled 20 meters away from other dogs is a "fixed' dog DA dog sure it's fixed, too far away from other dogs to be reactive with a muzzle on in case it gets too close and bites. Management structure for safe handling of a DA dog is fine, but thats not a "fixed" dog behaviour wise although 20 fan club members will tell you it's fixed and the trainer is awesome

Unskilled at what I started training seriously in 1974 and won my first trial entered in 1977 OMG dog trained on a choker though Given that dog training isn't the rocket science many like to make out it is, in 38 years as I have experienced, you do tend to learn something about dog behaviour believe it or not :D

Sorry, double post

So why does Steve use prongs given that my opinion of their value according to you means that I am not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an opinion? Wouldn't the same logic apply to Steve then, otherwise if he had a handle on dog behaviour as well as you do, like you, he wouldn't recommend and use prongs either would he

Why does Steve Courtney recommend and use prongs then Aidan.......is he not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an informed opinion to exclude their use from his training regimes??

You posts reflected that your mind is closed to the likes of prongs etc and I recalled seeing a photo of the dog wearing a prong said to belong to your training group and assumed that you do use prongs when required in certain cases? There are a lot of trainers who will not have anything to do with aversive tools and methods whatsoever and they take on dogs way beyond their training capabilities which are the character of dogs easily remedied with aversive methods and they restrict people achieving good results by limiting their regimes to select methods only which may not be the most appropriate methods for the particular dog. My point depending on the character of the dog, if a behavioural issue needs to be addressed, a trainer with a full toolbox with experience of using a 'full' complement of tools and methods is more appropriately equipped to handle a wider range of issues than a trainer who knows only one method with limited tooling??. Nope, I've never recommended a prong. You seem to have this idea that the dogs a person is equipped to handle is correlated with the number of tools they use. Sorry, but it's not about the tool. What is "method-pushing" (your label) if not what you've written above? Who are you to decide for dog trainers what the "most appropriate method" is? You're entitled to your opinion, but what you've written above is a judgment of the ability of other trainers which is based on opinions, not facts. Yes Aidan, that is my opinion that trainers who are not well knowledged on prongs from hands on experience are not informed enough to have a valid opinion to exclude them from a training regime on the basis that what they have to offer is better without direct comparison.....is that fair??.

A friend of mine heard another report she said the GSD had been returned to it's owner and doesn't appear that the GSD will be PTS over the incident??

I only address what's in front of me on the leash, the hardest dogs character wise with the most serious dog aggression I have seen personally have been Bull breeds of some description. The "most" dog aggressive dogs I have seen are little dogs that the owners can easily drag around on their retractor leads and rarely seek help for their seriously aggressive behaviour.

You posts reflected that your mind is closed to the likes of prongs etc and I recalled seeing a photo of the dog wearing a prong said to belong to your training group and assumed that you do use prongs when required in certain cases? There are a lot of trainers who will not have anything to do with aversive tools and methods whatsoever and they take on dogs way beyond their training capabilities which are the character of dogs easily remedied with aversive methods and they restrict people achieving good results by limiting their regimes to select methods only which may not be the most appropriate methods for the particular dog. My point depending on the character of the dog, if a behavioural issue needs to be addressed, a trainer with a full toolbox with experience of using a 'full' complement of tools and methods is more appropriately equipped to handle a wider range of issues than a trainer who knows only one method with limited tooling??.

Well I'm glad that at least you acknowledge that it's purely your opinion, because those of us who can and do would understandably hold a different opinion :laugh: Given that the OP's dog is a Labrador, a breed at least as biddable and handler-focused as a GSD or Kelpie, it's good to know that even m-sass thinks the "mamby-pamby" methods have a shot. Hmmmmm, so who is the trainer named Aidan in Tassie training a GSD with a prong collar??.........saw a photo of the dog wearing one

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