mita

Thanks, Jacqui & Dogbesotted, the info you've given & sent have been fantastic in giving us the full background. Without it, I wouldn't know what useful questions to ask the vet about Angel. Your warm wishes are much appreciated. I left Angel in the vet surgeon's arms as they both drifted into a buddhist trance The vet said he needed a dose of tibetan spaniel after handling a couple of hyper dogs. Shall let you know how things go. (The paper dogbesotted referred me to, was from the WSAVA conference May 2005. 'Cutaneous Cell Tumors in Dogs' Antony S. More. Cover every aspect...process, gradings, treatments, prognosis. Totally up to date.) Schnauzer, you GSD living many years after is so reassuring. I was amazed to read in the conference paper that good outcome can happen...just like that.

LB, I did some searching on the Net...& found a vet research review article about how some cats developed a particular type of cancer on the site of a vaccination. And I found a paper called Vaccines of the Present & Future by Alice Wolf delivered at the World Small Animals Veterinary Association conference 2001...quote: "Serious concerns have been raised recently regarding the connection between recent vaccination & the developmet of AIHA (?) & other immune-mediated diseases in dogs.' I may be oversimplifying things by making a direct connection between the 2 injections & the development of the tumour....because Angel also had tooth surgery 2 weeks ago...& that could also have added to the load on her system. But I am a bit sick at heart that I can never really know if things would have been different if I had stuck to my guns.

I wish I'd stuck to my guns, Jed. I'd not heard of any problems...but it just made me nervous with 2 'foreign' things being injected at the same time, into an older dog. I thought it could knock the immune system around. But the vet said she knew of no evidence...& then said she'd leave the decision up to me. Like an idiot I thought I couldn't say 'No' in the face of no evidence. So Angel had the injections. Seems a big coincidence....within a month, a little dog who's been outstandingly healthy, develops a nasty tumour.

thanks for the tip, Jacqui. I had a vague memory of that thread....but didn't have key words to search until you gave me neospora & molly. Here it is. Just the info I wanted. http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...ora+&+molly ADDED: I've now got a list of dietary suggestions from that thread. Shall be adding the shark cartilege, raw organic honey, green veggies..also will track down the Total Tansfer Factor Plus.

dogbesotted, I had my heart in my mouth reading your story... I did not expect an ending where your dog's still going going fine close to 3 years on. The hard part of Angel's tumour is still reasonably small...a lot of the swelling seems to be fluid. But from what people have told me, the main thing is if the rogue cells go somewhere else. The vets have said that they've got to excise the lump with big margins as small bits of cells can be located a bit away from the main mass. So it'll result in a wound much larger than the boundaries of the lump. It's really odd because Angel was due to have her annual vaccinations plus yearly heartworm injection a month back. I asked the vet would both injections together knock around the immune system of a dog like her that was getting on in years. The vet said there was no evidence for my concern. Maybe it's just a coincidence...but within the month of having both injections...Angel develops weird cells...& that process is related to function of the immune system.

Paula, I've just looked back & found your thread re Radar. Most helpful. 'Tar.

Thanks, Miranda....I had a feeling that could be the case. I'm still amazed at how quickly the lump appeared. Also...when the fluid was taken out with the needle biopsy, how much smaller the hard bit was. It would not have been so easy to find if it hadn't been for all the fluid 'popping' it out.

I discovered a lump the size of an elongated 10 cent piece on the side of our nearly 11 yr old female tibetan spaniel. It's under the skin. The lump didn't have the 'loose' feel of a harmless cyst...& didn't have signs of an abcess coming up. It also must have come up quickly as the tibbie gets brushed & handled a lot. I took her immediately to our excellent vets. A needle biopsy showed that the lump had mast cells...which I now understand can be nasty. So it'll be removed by surgery this Thursday....followed by more pathology tests on it. I'd be interested if anyone else has had a similar lump on their dog removed. And if they have any ideas about aftercare...or why this type of lump comes. And if there's any supplements to medical treatment (as there is for human cancer treatment).... like diet.

I second this advice....plus mix with basmatic rice (low in starch) & vegetables. Keep away from the cat food, too...if dog's owner owns a cat. Cat food is far higher in fat than dog food. We had a sheltie who got pancreatitis & we had to watch him like a hawk over his lifetime (died at age 14 yrs). Specially watch for other people feeding titbits like pieces of ham, cheese etc. We were amazed at what an apparently small bit of fat could trigger off an attack. Danger times are Christmas, Easter, parties when there's opportunities for the dog to find leftovers...& for others to feed it. A uni vet also warned us against bones...even when they hadn't a shred of meat on them. She said if you didn't believe that could be so...just do a test & boil such a bone....& watch all the fat rise to the top.

Similar result for our 14 yr old Sheltie when she completed a course of Cartrophen injections. This description could fit her. She'd previously had Rimadyl by mouth...& had nasty side-effects of making her sick.

Do you know that's exactly how we educate teachers to help children with learning/behaviour problems? It's not starting with a recipe & approaching the child & applying it. NO...they're taught that the answer is right there in front of them...the child him/her self...what the child does, says, likes, dislikes etc . Looking for patterns....looking for what precedes certain behaviours. You're spot on...understanding, 'reading', then working with the child....AND bringing into the loop the people who have closest contact...like parents.

Thank you so much for posting (& publishing) this case history on aggression in a dog, Steve. And, thank you, too, Cindy. I hope you write up more case histories on aggression...because it's the area of dog behaviour I'd like to know heaps more about. Because of the kinds of dogs I've fostered (or we've adopted), I've had to learn a lot about doggie problems to do with anxiety or timidity or toilet training or the very basic training for living as household pets. But I know next to nothing about aggression....& how it fits into dog behaviour. Seems there's so many kinds of aggression. Like we had a foster-dog who was a pussy-cat with other dogs in his own backyard....but take him for a walk & he'd turn into a screaming, foaming, whirling dervish if he saw another dog. The sad thing is that so many dogs are PTS because people don't have the knowledge, time, circumstances, patience or whatever, to help those dogs learn new ways of behaving with their owner's management. Or they think aggression is always an unchangeable trait. So it's specially heart-warming to read this case of one dog saved. More, please!

We've also had 2 dogs with SA...one a ripper & shredder of furniture, and the other a screamer...top note & constant. They became OK with strategies...no medication...advised by specialist behaviourist vet. She didn't mention meds...& I didn't know then such things were available. Did most of the things you've described. One thing we found was that the dogs were better confined to a specific place....& not given the choice of roaming. We have a smallish verandah room that's weatherproof & pleasant and that's where we set up the dogs' home-alone spot (mats, water, toys rubbed on our hands to get scent on etc). (Maybe a more confined spot would allow your dogs to have the big bones to chew away at?) Also found that it helped to train our dogs to spend time in this Being-Alone spot...even when we were at home. Because that was when we could give the negative reinforcement to the screaming or whining or whatever, by totally ignoring it....& positive reinforcement when there was quiet (a treat or a pat or whatever.). Result was...if dogs became tolerant & happy when left alone while we were at home...they were more likely to do the same when we were out. The other things that helped was the obedience training...having to obey 'Sit' to get anything good like pats, treats. For the 'screamer', we turned our backs & ignored her if ever she used her voice to get our attention. Only when she was quiet, she got attention, pat, treat or whatever. The behaviorist vet told us that the dogs learning to earn good things with good behaviour, would make them less likely to demand...like scream or destroy. With a highly stressed foster dog that had SA, another vet prescribed Valium, rather than Clomicalm. He said Valium doesn't sedate so the dog could learn all the behavioral things...& it'd be only temporay. It did work well for that dog...& only needed it for about 7-10 days.

A good training rule is...Whatever Works. Brilliant to catch her like that on her way down. I must remember that tip. I also find the second part of the learning to sit saga, the best motivator. And that's to make the dog earn everything she likes best in life....but first having her bottom on the ground. When the penny drops that bottom on ground is the gate way to goodies, the dog will sit like a flash.

ML is spot on in describing the problem as Submissive Urination. That's found in underconfident, timid female dogs. Punishment & smacking are making it worse as she has more & more to be fearful of. Please tell your husband that point & ask him to stop smacking her. It might be good for you both to have Submissive Urination explained to you face to face by the vet. It would give you a chance to ask questions & keep reporting back on how strategies to help the little dog are going. So go talk to the vet...contact her original breeder & talk to him/ her, too. You're right, the present situation is not good for the little dog.

OK....now imagine with that wooden fence at the end, you've added a sloping inwards piece at the top. See how he couldn't get over the top then? And he couldn't scramble over the piece due to the slight slope. For the longer fence bit with the lattice on top, it mightn't be so easy to build an inwards piece on the top. Maybe that's the place to put something that more stops him taking off. Don't know how this would go...but farmers used a trick to stop foxes getting over the fences of their chicken runs. They used long widths of chicken wire. One side of the wire was pinned about 1/3 the way up the run fence. The other side was pulled back a few feet from the fence & held down with something heavy. There's no way the fox can get past this stretch of chicken wire to make a jump over the top.

Our council gives some advice re fence-jumping dogs. At the top of the fence, add a section which points inwards & slopes slightly. If a dog jumps up, he can't get over the fence. And, because of the slight inward slope, he can't haul himself up to scramble over the added piece. To think of the shape of the addition side-on, think of a capital T (clean out one side of the bar at the top...& make the other slope down a little).

You're right...the positive approach to learning behaviour...for both children & dogs...is frequently misunderstood to mean negative things have no place. That is so far from the truth. In relation to children, one key aspect is their learning the notion of CONSEQUENCES that will follow their behaviours. And unacceptable behaviours are followed by things the child does not like....for example, the loss of some privilege. But it's important that the child be made aware that in behaving in a certain way....it's the child himself or herself who is CHOOSING the consequences. So if they choose to behave acceptably, good things happen. If they choose to behave unacceptably, then things they don't like will follow. Similarly with dogs....positive reinforcement only works if there's an opposite...negative reinforcement. Like when teaching small dogs not to jump up...they're first taught that all the good things they like follow when their bottoms are on the ground. If they jump up, their owner turns back & totally ignores them....both of which they hate. This means that training of dogs also covers both positive & negative consequences. And it's up to people to research carefully what's involved with those electronic dog collars....& make their own decision. I like the way there's a warning buzz before the whatever (zapp?). That in itself is a good sign....giving the dog something to learn to react to before any zap.

I've had advice from 2 different directions....1 tibbie breeder with dogs with magnificent coats said never to use a human shampoo on my girls. BUT another tibbie breeder with dogs with magnificent coats told me how she always uses Johnson's Baby Shampoo....first mixed with a little water.

Yes, K9, one of those 2 tibs had regrowth...& the op was done again. And you're right what strict & ethical guidelines the debarking vet set down...his clinic actually referred the dog to a dog behaviourist & the owners had to follow the instructions & program. Most people never needed to go past that stage. Just out of interest, someone told me that when criminals get plastic surgery to change their appearance, they also sometimes get surgery on the vocal cords which changes the quality of their voice, too.

Definitely sexy, Raz. Not the raspy sound of a smoker's cough. Can't you see women lined up at the debarking vet asking for sexy voices!!! ;)

A good thread with interesting opinions & info. Food for thought in what you said, gooddog. Very in touch with the reality many dog owners face. K9...re dogs dying under a debarking op...the vet I was told about, insisted that the op must be the last ditch stand....when everything else had failed. So those dogs would have had an uncertain future before the op. So debarking's not an option of first choice. My case of 2 is hardly a generalization, I know...but those tibs have smokey, low-pitched barks. Gives them no stress at all. Until the owners told me they had been debarked, I just thought they'd been lucky to be born with sexy voices! ;)

I used to be dead against debarking..until I found out more about it & listened to the experiences of dog owners. Now I believe that other means should be tried first...training, changing the environment so the dog can't see the things it tends to bark at, etc, etc, etc. But it can come to a point where only debarking will save the dog from being thrown out of its home....or worse. People who owned show tibbies & lived in a built-up area, told me how they got their dogs debarked. But it was done by a vet experienced in doing the procedure. He first insists that owners try all other means....& even refers to a dog behaviourist. Then he counsels about what's involved in debarking...& says that, in some circumstances, the bark returns. That was the case with one of those tibs....the operation had to be repeated. I was impressed that the 2 dogs hadn't lost the ability to vocalize....it just sounded lower & quieter. So the sound wouldn't carry & wasn't irritating on the ear.

We have a tibbie with a flea allergy. I've found that Advantage works best against fleas. I also use a trick that I got from the directions for use on the big dogs where you put one tube on, but in 3 spots. So, for my small tibbie, I cut the hair right back to the skin (about size 50 cent piece) between her shoulders AND also between her hips....& I put half a tube on each. Making it go on 2 spots. Tibbies have long hair so I brush her hair over the bald spots.

Oops, Nat, that was a wise correction....I DID make it sound as if every dog following the owner around would develop separation anxiety. Not true at all. I should have been clearer that our Sheltie's separation anxiety was just the circumstance where the vet showed us how to meet a dog's need for company & to train it to be content to spend some time alone. We now do that as a matter of course with any new or foster dog.