mita

The breeders our tibbies have come from have their dogs tested for liver shunt. I've not heard of any cases here. But then I'm a pet person. Best person to get health information from is the Australian contact person for the International Tibetan Spaniel Working Party that collects data on health problems in each country. Click on the representatives' link on the TSWP page & scroll down to the Australian flag. Then to contact details. http://www.tibbies.net/itswp/

I know in most situations this assumption is correct, but I can almost guarantee that my 40kg dog would come off second best in a fight with a smaller dog. He doesn't defend himself. Well, in that case there'd be no argy bargy. Which is what I was talking about....an actual 2-sided altercation.

I'd expect both to be charged with assault, not the little lady excused and laughed about because she is little. That is too often what happens for little dogs. And if little dog owners are worried about the harm a wayward big paw can do, they need to be as watchful as I am - I don't let my guys go off lead around little unknown dogs and owners and just run up to them, but that caution isn't reciprocated. I expect you went on the read the rest of my quote. Where I said that, in certain situations the dainty little lady would be far more to be feared. And that not all beefy blokes have the mind to do others harm. The point was extent of harm....& type of harm....& what would be the 'at risk' situations involving each size. Whether humans or dogs.

Well said, Staranais. Strength & size count in extent of responsibility in the human world, too. If you're going to get a punch in the face, who would you choose to do it...big, beefy bloke who's a mountain of muscle or a dainty little lady? But having said that, it's paranoid to believe that every big dog....or every beefy bloke who's a mountain of muscle...has the make-up to be highly aggressive & dangerous. Maybe the dainty little lady with fingernails like razors might be the one to fear, in some cases. And, as you said, even a small dog can do damage to a baby or small child....especially given a child's delicate skin, and the fact they're often on face/eye-level with the dog. So I agree with you that both big and small dogs need to be controlled in public & benefit hugely from a background where they've been socialised with all shapes & sizes of people and other dogs, from the time they're puppies. Just my experience, but I've found, when out walking with my small tibbie girls on a leash, ..... owners of big dogs (also on a leash)...are almost pathetically grateful that I don't give them a wide berth. And am happy, under those controlled & well sussed out conditions, to let my small dogs do some socialisation. The big dogs' owners say it can be hard to find small dog owners who'll allow this. It's very much the results of sociaslisation....& temperament, too. My tibbie girls were brought up with big dogs....one with a Tibetan Mastiff & the other with a GSD. They actually prefer the big dogs because well-cared for, well-socialised big dogs have a great air of confidence. I'm mind-reading here, but my tibbies prefer them. The dogs they don't like....& will cut dead, as if they're not even there....are the highly defensively aggressive & out of control, small dogs. ADDED: I never take my small dogs to a leash-free park. That's not controlled conditions.....but Rafferty's Rules. Where anything can happen....& often does, so small dogs are distinctly at a disadvantage if a blue starts, whatever the cause.

I love that! Typical Tibbie Attitude. 'OK, I've done this once. And the point of doing it again, is...?'

The ears got me, too.....they look like wing flaps on a fighter jet! Maybe makes them go faster. Re puppy prices, I've noticed that the puppy prices here in Qld are a bit lower....just like the house prices etc are lower than the southern states.

Prices Tibbiemax would know more about puppy prices. All my Tibbies have been retired showdogs (all Aus Chs). After I was thoroughly sussed out by the breeders, I literally had to force them to take a payment (apart from the desexing cost). Their genuine priority was to get their tib a happy forever home. And those breeders stay in touch, with much interest & affection. Obedience My Tibbies have been home-trained in basic obedience. I found I had to train them differently from the working dog breeds. The BCs & Shelties obeyed to please. The Tibbie attitude can be...'And the point of this is...? They don't tend to take to obedience classes for the sake of obedience, out in a paddock. Though I notice a few of the US Tibbie people have some dogs involved with formal Obedience. But when the Tibbies got the connection that doing what I wanted, got them something they liked very much.... a cuddle, a treat or meal, or lead on for a walk, they did it in a shot. And most noticeably....they remembered. After a while, they figured out the situations where an order would always get them something they liked, if they obeyed. Then they'd beat me to it. Like, I'd have a treat in my hand....& bang, down would go the tibbie bottoms. Then I never had to say the word 'Sit' again. Tibbies are famous for their memory. Agility & other Activities Also I've noticed a few of the US people have Tibbies involved with Agility. Here's the Agility Tibbies website with great pics, info: http://agiletibs.tripod.com/ But I've noticed it's not greatly my Tibbies' 'thing' ('And the point of this is....?). But they love to run....flat out. Tibbies have hare-feet, the same as the big sighthounds, like greyhounds. That gives them traction for speed. A Qld breeder takes her dogs to lure coursing, where the Tibbie speed shines. Our neighbour's Tibbie boy was named Brockie, after Peter Brock because he could run like the wind. One US man used to take his little tribe of Tibbies to hunt hares. And the Tibbies could catch up to them easily. And another couple found their Tibbie girl could easily beat a whippet over a reasonable distance. Just to celebrate their speed, pet Tibbies will often go into great zoomies, around the garden. Shedding Yes, you will find some Tibbie shedding at times during the year. I've found the hair tends to clump & is easier to pick up than the finer, shorter hairs of our cats. Even tho' Tibbies don't have to be clipped, I've had our Tibbies clipped for the Qld summer (like a Shih Tzu). Because Tibs have solid little bodies, they look very cute, not like plucked chickens. First time, I saw them clipped by a good groomer, I fell in love with the breed all over again. They looked so pretty & vital. Getting on with big dogs How Tibbies get on with other bigger dogs, depends what they learn to get used to. My Tibbie, Angel, was brought up with her breeder's Tibetan Mastiff & she preferred big dogs (apart from Tibbies!). She became the Test Small Dog for the Greyhound Adoption Program here....& loved it. Even tho' she was only about the size of some of the big Greys' heads. Many Tibbie people I've known, have had a big breed as their other dog. There have been Tibbie combinations with a Dobe, a Rottie, a Bernese Mountain Dog, a GSD etc. The Tibbie girl next door was retired from showing 'because she was frightened of big dogs'. She's been with our neighbours nearly a year & is now great mates, thro' the fence, with the Greyhounds owned by the man at the back. The dogs I've found my Tibbies do not like at all....ever....are small, twittery, unfocused, yappy dogs. We have 2 DD dogs like that across the road....& the Tibbies cut them dead. 'Dogs, what dogs?' Tibbie Attitude again.

Mine's slightly O/T, because in recent years I've mostly got older dogs from the registered breeders. Each breeder had talked to me about all sorts of things, long before the tibbie arrived. And I knew each breeder's good reputation down to their sock-tops. So I got from each breeder, just what I wanted. The privilege of owning one of their dogs. I'll never forget the sight of my Nina Zena walking gracefully down the ramp from the pet transport van, having come from a tibbie breeder near Canberra. Beautiful, calm girl that looked like someone had shrunk a golden retriever. Who could ask for anything more? She was everything the breeder had told me she was, showing all the lovely social behaviours the breeder had raised her with. Best of all the breeder was there....by phone or email, for any follow-up query. (Ness, I love those puppy pics. Who could want anything more, there, too? Than a beautiful, well-bred, lovingly raised BC puppy doing what puppies do. )

1. What is my relationship with the breed? (ie breeder, first time owner etc) I'm a pet owner. We used to own working dog breeds, then shelties. I ran into Tibbies at the Brisbane Royal & was taken with the way these small dogs were not twittery....but sat & coolly looked me in the eye as if saying, 'Are you worth knowing?' Later found out, that's typically 'Tibbie Attitude'. They don't give their hearts away until they've intelligently sussed you out. If you pass, you have the most extraordinary dog for all seasons. Then they become the easiest of dogs to own, so it's not surprising that people happily find themselves owning 2...or 3...or 4 etcl Tibbies are now our breed of choice. 2. Where and why was the breed first developed? In Tibet, possibly a couple thousand years ago. To be companions of monks in the Tibetan monasteries, as well as brilliant little alert watch dogs (they have excellent hearing & eyesight). The Tibbies would sit out on the ledges of the high monasteries & bark an alert at any danger approaching. Then the Tibetan Mastiffs would lumber out to do the tough work. Explains why even today, Tibbies are brilliant alert dogs (ours have thwarted a burglar & a car thief as well as alerting people to a lost toddler on the road). And they happily & securely sit up on high places. One Tibbie owner, working on his roof, was surprised when his Tibbie joined him. 3. How common is it in Australia? Still fairly uncommon in Australia, but they haven't been discovered much by backyard breeders & puppy farmers. We have excellent registered breeders, tho', producing all-round excellent Tibbies. 4. What is the average lifespan? Around 15 or 16 years. Some get to 17+ yrs. 5. What is the general temperament/personality? Everyone living with a Tibbie for the first time, remarks on how unusual the temperament is. Said to be 1/3 cat (self-possessed), 1/3 dog (loyal & loving) and 1/3 monkey (highly intelligent & nimble). Each Tibbie seems to be varying combinations of those. They do not give their hearts away without first sussing out a person. But when a Tibbie decides you're the person for him or her, you get the most devoted dog who settles in to be the closest companion you've ever had. Which makes it easy to own more than one. They tend to be dogs for all seasons. Very clean & companionable house dogs that thrive on routine, but loving to have a play & a run in the yard. 6. How much daily exercise is needed for the average adult? About 20 minutes. Care must be taken not to get Tibbies overheated by walking them in the full heat of summer. Even tho' they don't have an exaggeratedly short muzzle, Tibs still are a shorter muzzled breed. Dogs pant to get rid of body heat & the shorter-nosed breeds have to work harder at it. 7. Is it a breed that a first time dog owner could easily cope with? Depends on the personality of the owner. Control freaks should not own Tibbies. If the owner knows & understands Tibbies' 'ways' and gets some training/management support from experienced Tibbie owners, then should be fine. 8. Can solo dogs of this breed easily occupy themselves for long periods? Depends on the individual dogs. Some of the Tibbies with a high trait of self-possession (cat-like) can be happy with their own company for long periods (my neighbour's Tibbie & my present Tibbie are like that). Others are more monkey-like & thrive on companionship...either another dog or of a person. My former Tibbie did not like being alone. Tibbies tend to be tribal & get on well with other Tibbies. So my former Tibbie was fine when I got another Tibbie for company. 9. How much grooming is required? The Tibbie coat is wash 'n wear, doesn't require clipping. Weekly bath & a good brushing is fine. Hair under pads needs to be trimmed. 10. Is it too boisterous for very small children or for infirm people (unless the dog is well trained)? Depends on the individual dog. Tibbies have a great record as pet therapy dogs in places like hospitals & nursing homes. Those with cat-like calm do exceptionally well at that. One of our Tibbies was selected to be a therapy dog in a children's hospital....& her sister was one in a nursing home. On the whole, Tibbies don't tend to be over-boisterous breed....but some Tibbie boys might like zooming fun play (the monkey-like ones!). Like all dogs, it helps if they're socialised with children from puppyhood. One of my Tibbies was raised with the breeders' infant & young grandchildren....& she was brilliant with babies & toddlers. My other Tibbie came from a breeder with no contact with children, so she tended to pefer being around adults. 11. Are there any common hereditary problems a puppy buyer should be aware of? Information about any hereditary problems can be read on the Tibbies Net website, where the activities/findings of the International Working Party on health are openly reported. The breeders test for PRA & Liver Shunt. Here's info on the eye-problem PRA. http://www.tibbies.net/eye.html Australia rates as having no PRA affected dogs reported. Use that Table to compare with other countries. http://www.tibbies.net/itswp/pra-cases 12. When buying a puppy, what are the things you should ask of the breeder? (eg what health tests have been done (if applicable) and what is an acceptable result to those tests so the buyer has an idea of what the result should be) How does the breeder socialise their puppies....are they handled by people (& children, if the buyer has children) and have they been exposed to the sights & sounds of everyday life in a house & yard? Puppies socialised like this, will be less anxious & will more likely to bond well with people & with other animals (same for all breeds). Once again, a puppy buyer can get all the necessary information to help them ask health-related questions, from the Tibbies Net site. Here's the guide to what to ask a breeder about, especially what they test for prior to breeding. http://www.tibbies.net/health.html

Before I work away at answering some of those questions, a good place for general information is the Tibbies Net which is international. Good thing about Tibbies is that registered breeders & pet owners communicate internationally on a Tibetan Spaniel Global Village Mailing List. As the breeders put a huge emphasis on health as well as conformation & temperament, there's an International Working Party that has health as the focus. It's not surprising that purebred Tibbies tend to be healthy & hardy as well as seriously beautiful (I'm biased!). http://www.tibbies.net/ Australian Tibetan Spaniel Clubs (Victoria & NSW) and listings of breeders with beautiful pics of their dogs are set out on the Dogzonline Tibetan Spaniel Community pages.

Friends of ours say they have the perfect protection team for their property & family. He's a builder with a lot of valuable tools, too. His dog is a Dobe & his wife's dog is a Tibbie. The Tibbie is a brilliant alert dog that lets them know when there's a stranger around (only time it seriously barks), then the Dobe saunters out to take a look, scaring anyone with evil intent. What the evil intender doesn't know, is that the Dobe is a real sweetie, & was a nanny dog to their children. Tho', thanks to his visual put-off, he's never been put to the test by anyone attacking. Both dogs have only been trained with the usual pet-dog obedience.

I'm glad you asked that. Because I lost the question, too. Not that I helped myself by telling how a dachie was the only dog to drive off the dreaded Brissie walking path attacker (who turned out to live in the next suburb to me). When walking my tibbie on the path late yesterday, a bloke was walking behind me & I just had to remark to her....'Can you run into a phone box & turn into a dachie?' I know that's pretty pathetic, but that's my answer to the OP. If it's spontaneity in taking on an attacker, she's looking for. ADDED: OK, Akayla, got your ?. Well, with a bat-swinging lunatic, I'd go for a dog who could set the pace in running away. Forget the dachie. In this case, I'll stick with a tibbie who's got hare-feet like the sighthounds & can run like the wind.

Just on a lighter note, it can be amazing what an 'everyday' dog can do in a crisis situation. Months back, when Brisbane women were being attacked on walking paths, the only creature that sent the attacker off, was a girl's pet dachshund. When the bloke grabbed the girl, the dachie fastened on to his leg & couldn't be shaken off. It was easier for the bloke to give up & run away. And, on an even lighter note, enjoy these pics from a dachie bulletin board where someone's pet dachie, Maggie, does a sneak play-attack on their other dog, pitbull Molly. And guess who finishes up on top, in the play wrestle. http://www.dachsie.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=35400

Look at the findings of this recent study from the University of Cordoba in Spain. Accompanied by a great photo of a Pitbull. ScienceDaily (May 1, 2009) — Many dogs are put down or abandoned due to their violent nature, but contrary to popular belief, breed has little to do with a dog's aggressive behaviour compared to all the owner-dependant factors. This is shown in a new study from the University of Córdoba, which includes breeds that are considered aggressive by nature, such as the Rottweiler or the Pit Bull. The conclusions, however, are surprising: it is the owners who are primarily responsible for attacks due to dominance or competition of their pets. The research team from the University of Córdoba (UCO) has determined a series of external factors which are inherent to the dogs in order to understand their aggressiveness, and they have observed that external, modifiable and owner-dependent factors have a greater influence on the animals.... The study, which has recently been published in the Journal of Animal and Veterinary Advances, is based on the following fact: approximately 40% of dominance aggression in dogs is associated with a lack of authority on the part of the owners who have never performed basic obedience training with their pets or who have only carried out the bare minimum of training. Breed has less influence on aggressiveness The Spanish researchers studied 711 dogs (354 males and 357 females) of which 594 were purebred and 117 were half-breed dogs older than one year of age. Among the breeds observed were the Bull Terrier, the American Pit Bull Terrier, the Alsatian, the Boxer, the Rottweiler, the Doberman, as well as apparently more docile breeds such as the Dalmatian, the Irish Setter, the Golden Retriever, the Labrador Retriever, the Miniature Poodle, the Chihuahua, the Pekinese, or the French Bulldog, which also exhibit dominant behaviour. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90424114315.htm

I sent info ahead of the meeting time, so the breeder would already have the basic information about us as pet owners & what we could offer. Then. on the day, we could just chat with each other. And the breeder could ask for anything extra. The info was a single page summary about the pets we'd owned to date, photos of our home showing fences etc, names of people she could call for references & another summary of the lifestyle the pet would have with us. Best wishes. I'm sure all will go well.

None of my tibbies has ever been attracted to kongs either. No matter what I've done. I've sometimes wondered if the strong rubbery smell has put them off, too. Your pup is beautiful.

I agree with Clyde, she had a specially sweet face. I promised earlier to send something down towards her getting the vet exam & any chance. Shall do so. She's at peace now, but knew she was loved.

That is where you might be wrong. I can only speak for myself on this, but our program could be accused of doing the same. But we do look and we do cry and this motivates us to do more. We are working towards 'no kill' from a different angle. We concentrate on increasing the desire for our dogs, and making our dogs more adoptable. Given the finite number of dogs and the potential to take market share away from other types of pets and the ability to create new markets, we feel we can achieve 'no kill' in a way that does not put the public at risk from problem dogs. If that takes us longer than NW suggests, so be it. I don't see anyone else in Australia that is both "no kill" and "open to all surrenders", although some places do attempt to make that claim. We have to ensure our own survival by not taking risks that are outside the boundaries of wider community expectations. I think the pitbull ambassador people know that too. I'm basing my comment on the Ambassor Program's website...that they're not actively advocating for a changed & more informed view of the majority of pitbulls coming into pounds. That is not a critical comment....it's simply a statement that there's one missing piece of the puzzle towards a better solution. And the No Kills are missing out on actively advocating on that one point, too. That is, pitbulls are the same as all dogs in that the path which leads dogs into pounds, tends to be failure to provide socialisation and/or management from the earliest age. So they should be given the same fair assessment on entry to pounds/shelters, not automatically culled. Nothing more is asked for them, that any dog would get. Same issues apply re how treatable any severe health or behavioral problem might be. It would be inhumane to demand that some dogs continue to live. The most strongly towards No Kill places like AWL Qld acknowledge that. It's simply a reality. People like NW would not argue that a severely injured or terminally ill or wonky brain-wired dog would be kept alive for the sake of ideology. There's a difference between arguing a case for the big picture... & making humane decisions for individual dogs. I agree with you that there are also other things that would help bring down the pitbull PTS rate, just as you're doing with greyhounds. Like raise the acceptance and adoption rate of pitbulls. That is what AP is aiming to do, by presenting socialised & trained pitbulls. But it needs to be understood a lot of effort has been put into those dogs to achieve that. As for any rescue dog. The' end product dog' should not be confused with the 'raw material dog' that turned up in the pound in the first place. That's another point which should be emphasised to the public....so that the 'saving' bar for pitbulls isn't set too high in pounds & shelters.

There's no compromise in what I've suggested. It's joining forces on the one key point that both the Ambassador Program AND Nathan W are leaving out. Where & why most pitbulls are killed. And doing something about it....using what solid research tells us (Australian research at tha!). The Ambassador Program is presently not looking into the fate of most of the pitbulls which do not make it to them. That is, the majority of pitbulls which are more likely to be PTS on entry to a pound or shelter. Because they are thought different from other dogs....in public perception. The AP has no advocacy for these pitbulls at the moment. Nathan W & the No Kills are looking at changing the attitudes of pounds & shelters towards pitbulls. But they think the problem is that the AP has set a bar too high. But they're not looking at why pitbulls who'll never get anywhere near the AP, have poor chance of survival. So the No Kills have no advocacy for these pitbulls in this position, either. The AP's are not looking at the majority of the pitbulls that are likely to be PTS. The No Kills are looking in the wrong direction to prevent their being PTS. A solution is, as I've suggested previously. Simply AP & the No Kills join forces on the means which would help the majority of pitbulls entering pounds to be viewed the same as any other dogs, assessed as fairly, & given the same chances of getiing to rehabilitation/rehoming. Instead of instant culling. Both groups would only be addressing something that's presently left out of both their positions. Then the AP would be doing something for the majority of pitbulls at risk of PTS. The No Kills would be doing so, too. With no need to be blaming the AP. We're fortunate in Australia that we can pick to pieces, stuff out of these highly emotional US culture wars. And get something sensible & useful to be going on with.

Sandgrubber, both sides need to get together & arrive at a more coherent message about pitbulls. And get rid of the emotive prose. The dogs themselves will not benefit from the confrontation that the article sets up. I agree with you that the Ambassador Program has set out to do their best via pitbulls. But it would help if they'd also address the problem which pitbulls face when they come into pounds & shelters. And the immediate decisions made there. The step before any AP Program gets their hands on any. NW & the No Kill folk tend to have their eyes on that point, because their focus is changing pounds & shelters & the attitudes about animals arriving there. That's presently where the high bar for the pitbulls begins. Because of the widespread belief that these dogs are intrinsically different. So decisions about PTS come more easily to this breed. Both the Ambassadors Program & the NW folk should work together on putting together the 2 pieces of the puzzle. They need to get into the public mind that the problem for pitbulls, coming into the shelters, fits the same path that can lead all kinds of dogs there. Failures in socialisation &/or management from the time they're born & bred. That's the same for any dog, so pounds & shelters need to provide as sound an assessment for pitbulls as they would for any dog. And ,so, give them the same fair chance to move on to rehabilitation & rehoming, as any other dog. But presently it's at this point that pitbulls are far more vulnerable to PTS decisions, than other breeds. It's not the Ambassador Program that's killing those pitbulls....it's here at the entry to pounds & shelters spot. This is where the most 'dying' happens. The Ambassador is doing sound work with what pitbulls come into their care. Building up a training knowledge & expertise. But only of the pitbulls which reach them. Now that is not the AP's fault. The fault, for most pitbulls, lies back at the entry level to pounds & shelters. I don't know how likely it is...but pitbulls would be best served if both the Ambassador Program and the No Kill presented a united face.....just on the point of stressing that pitbulls need the same kind of developmental path as any dog does, if they're to become well socialised & managed. So they're less likely to be placed in a pound or shelter. And, if they are, their immediate assessment should be as it is for any dog. Not culling because of their breed. I may be prejudiced.....but it seems to be a US-thing that problems get polarised between groups. And another culture-war starts.

Wise words as always M - and I think the point of an article that is this deliberately polarising, is exactly that. People in the industry take notice, look at the two ideas, examine them critically then work to solutions that can work in the 'real world'. Nathan doesn't have all the answers - but we do. But if Nathan hadn't written that article.....we wouldn't have looked at what first seems like 2 completely different views. And, if you hadn't put it up for us to discuss, we wouldn't have had the opportunity to pick it apart. While ignoring all the 'isn't he/she a rotten egg'...or 'isn't he/she a saint'....stuff! Rotten eggs can get things either right or wrong....& so can saints. Abusing/adoring the people is useless. It's what they actually do that counts....based on what they actually believe. What keeps striking me is the contrast with children's problems. To look at a child's serious problem, you have to look at what was significant in how that child developed. But that's not done with dogs. The developmental track is never looked at for dogs. The way dog 'temperament' tests are named & used, would be considered inaccurate and unethical if the same thing was done with children.

Sandgrubber, I've been trying to find the PitBull Ambassador Program (S?) to fill in some spaces about where the pitbulls in shelters tend to come from.....& also exactly what their assessment & training processes are. So thanks for that link. I haven't had a negatively reactive response to the article. It seems to me that NW & the Ambassador Programs seem to be trying to come to the problem from 2 angles. The Ambassador Program is coming from the angle that the pitbull has a poor public image. Which they don't deserve, as a breed, but which human failure & ignorance have laid on them. So this program goes all out to rehabilitate the name of the breed by having selection/training processes which have a higher bar than that put up for most breeds. NW then comes in from that last angle.....saying that the Ambassador approach is actually reinforcing, in the public mind, that pitbulls aren't like most dogs. Which can give a tacit blessing to their being PTS with more alacrity & less thought, than other breeds. Both views reveal 2 reasonable angles on exactly the same problem. And it would be possible to find a common ground. Both parties need to see that one answer lies in joining forces to battle for improving the conditions ptibulls are bred/raised in. As an antidote to the the poor background management by humans which has led them into the shelters, in the first place. The factors needed to breed/raise pitbulls to be suitably sociable, are the same for any dog. It's at that stage where it can be clearly presented to the public that pitbulls are like any other dog....& need the same conditions to develop as a well socialised dog. If they were indeed different....it wouldn't be possible to make that statement. If that can be got into the public mind....as an acceptable situation. Then it follows that pitbulls will be more equitably treated when they come into shelters. Because what's required for rehablitation & rehoming would follow the same principles as for any dog. And that includes drawing on expert knowledge of a breed. Same as would be done for a poodle! There's no need for the problem to be put into 2 polarised camps.....& hurl abuse from one to the other. NW & the Ambassador Program would be well sit down & working thro' the issues....not just talking, but doing some work on it. And getting the technical background straight....like the nature of temperament & of behaviour.

That's better. It's who's doing what, because they believe what. Not just they think their intentions are good. As Sister Mary Honorious used to say, 'The way to hell is paved with good intentions.' That's a Catholic thing. :cool: Seriously, the issues brought out in this article do need unpicking. Still reading on....

I need to start over & read the article again. To separate the reasons why people are doing what they do, from arguments against persons. I don't think Shel's putting up the article for discussion (whatever she thinks of it) is cause to be calling 'shame' on her head. Disagreement, yes....& why. But off to re-read... My original response was.... temperament & behaviour being confused in assessments of dogs.