Longcoat

So how does the Dogo Argentino and the Presa Canario fit into this theory? Or the Corgi or Newfoundland (both subject to BSL in Italy), or the Rhodesian Ridgeback and Golden Retriever which are both included in BSL in areas of the USA. We are talking "Australian concept" on BSL. There is quite a lot of information in this regard on the subject. I would like to see legislation for real that restricts Golden Retrievers which sounds like bulldust to me Still doesn't explain the Dogo or the Presa. Neither are fighting dogs, they are both guardian/hunting/guard dogs. Better ban the Great Dane too. Google for BSL as it relates to Golden Retrievers, it exists whether you choose to believe it or not. I guess they may consider a hunting dog fights the prey it hunts perhaps???. There is "talk" on Golden Retrievers & BSL but couldn't find any actual legislation in confirmation though

That's all well and good but try telling that to a ranger when a neighbour or member lodges a complaint for something as minor as that incident. Personally I would go straight into cover my own arse mode and bugger the good will these days. I've seen owners dragged through the system and forced to consult with a solicitor for a dog than inflicted a scratch on another. The poor people went through a hell of a lot with rangers visits, demands to surrender the dog, threats of NOI's and it went on for months. Their breed of choice was a Rotti too. I think it's important as a dog owner to know the laws governing dog's under your particular council or animal acts as I have known a couple of people that have been forced to jump through hoops with incidents that essentially wasn't their fault or repsonsibility. Not all rangers know the laws either and often work under a misguided interpretation of what they think is reasonable which is not always correct.

Yes, I would feel the same and be annoyed that I had overlooked a situation that had injured my puppy. I couldn't blame the dog next door or take money from the owners even if they offered.

He was totally wrong. Good posts "Greytmate" Which part is totally wrong rottiadore , most of what the ranger told me reflects the same as what Greytmate has told us??? A game dog "can" be handled and stopped from fighting whilst retaining a will to win because of their level head. That is one of the things looked for in a pit fighting dog. Nobody wants a dog that can't be stopped or controlled by a handler. Both dogs must be able to fight another day. That's a training issue and is often the most difficult thing to teach in Schutzhund for a determined "game" dog to out on command and not re-engage. Untrained dogs in the fight will not out and the gamer the dog, the less likelihood of stopping the fight.

Apart from a neighbourly gesture in keeping the peace, I can't undertsand why anyone would feel obliged to pay for someone elses mistake A dog owners obligation is to keep your dog in being a cut and dry situation. If a dog gets out wholly or partly, the consequences are the dog owners responsibility???.

He was totally wrong. Good posts "Greytmate" Which part is totally wrong rottiadore , most of what the ranger told me reflects the same as what Greytmate has told us???

That's not the bottom line at all, and people really need to get that general idea out of their heads Dog's are allowed to react and cause injury in certain circumstances and this is one of them. Paying for what is essentially someone elses fault sets the wrong precidence. The OP's responsibility is to keep their dogs in and if the fence prevents Rotty paws from entering the neighbours yard then the OP's job is done. If the fence accomodates only puppy paws entering the neighbours yard, then the puppy owner needs to address that. Only the puppy owner could have prevented the situation occurring by keeping an eye on what mischeif the puppy was up to at the time.

You can't be responsible for where a neighbour allows their dog to place it's foot, which is beyond your control. They should pay for any injury associated costs when their dog has got it's foot under the fence into your yard. They should have kept the puppy away from the fence if the gaps were not puppy proof. Your dog by law is allowed to protect the property from intruders and the situation is not your fault or responsibility to share.

So how does the Dogo Argentino and the Presa Canario fit into this theory? Or the Corgi or Newfoundland (both subject to BSL in Italy), or the Rhodesian Ridgeback and Golden Retriever which are both included in BSL in areas of the USA. We are talking "Australian concept" on BSL. There is quite a lot of information in this regard on the subject. I would like to see legislation for real that restricts Golden Retrievers which sounds like bulldust to me

The concept of BSL is based on the restriction of breeds from a fighting origin and the breeds listed simply fall into that category. It's not about ramdomly selecting breeds that someone thinks has a dangerous potential as it may appear. Other breeds have featured higher than restricted breeds in bite statistics and seem to get away with it, but those breeds are not of fighting origins and escape the BSL radar for that reason. The listed breeds are also fairly consistant worldwide where breed restrictions are in place and are not exclusive to Australian selection. BSL specifically isn't about lowing bite statsitics, it's about restricting breeds of a fighting origin being kept in the community and increasing bite statistic potential should restrictions be lifted is the basic reasoning behind it.

They speak of lock jaw in the APBT which we know is incorrect as far as it's jaw structure goes, but where they hang on to finish the job regardless if someone kicks, punches, puts the hose on them etc etc to break up a fight, the "gameness" of the dog is what keeps the dog fighting on despite all attempts to stop it. A ranger told me once that gameness in a dog if a fight erupts don't back off until the fight is over regardless what instigated the fight. A dog that isn't "game" can be easily stopped from fighting, a kick or punch, hosing them down, or even yelling at them will cause a retreat which the ranger I recall told me was the difference???. He also said that some dogs have a vision for threat removal where they will bite if challenged, but if the threat retreats, the job is done. Some which is often consistant with the APBT if a fight develops, they fight to the end and virtually nothing will stop them???.

Sounds like you're after a Belgian Shepherd to a T :rolleyes: Can't say I know too many Malinios like that

How can a dog be well trained when it demonstrates unwanted behaviour???.

That Is not game! If It were then almost every dog could be labeled game Game Is going In there with 4 broken limbs as an extreme example, and all the odds stacked against It, and coming out or dye trying. It's not about having no fear, but about still doing the job when to most dogs It Is not physically capable! Such as under extreme stress and pain. That Is how I define It. There was an article I read from the USA not long ago where a police K9 was released to apprehend two offenders on foot. The dog nailed one guy and the other guy stabbed the dog multiple times with fatal wounds. The dog although in severe pain and essentially dying, held on a full hard bite until the handler caught up and arrested the offender. The dog released on the handlers command and died instantly, but the article was about a bravery award given to the dog in service from sheer "gameness" of doing his job in apprehension despite suffering horrific stab wounds in the process and holding onto life until his handler had made the arrest.

Whilst I agree with you SBT123, as you would have seen in my previous post providing a Wikipedia definition, the APBT has a worldwide recognition for "gameness" which doesn't help it's cause in connection with BSL unfortunately. We can play the gameness down, breed and train it out, but the trait remains part of the characteristic that the BSL supporters latch onto with "gameness" to condemn the breed.

I wish your son all the best in his ambition Specialised security dog trainers can easily test a dog's potential for the work and also train the dog properly if it is a good candidate. I am a firm believer that a security dog needs to be of the correct temperament and be trained for the work before the dog is on duty. Ultimately, I would love to in the future, see some proper working credentials required for security dogs.

Dog fighting breeds In dog fighting breeds gameness is valued as it gives the dog the ability to maintain the attack in baiting, despite ripped flesh, dehydration, exhaustion or broken bones. As one writer describes it, "Game is the dog that won't quit fighting, the dog that'll die in the ring, the dog that'll fight with two broken legs." The scope and method of training to develop a game dog varies dramatically depending on the level and experience of the dog-fighter. The most famous "gamebred" breed of dog is the American Pit Bull Terrier. Above is the Wikipedia definition for game in fighting dog breeds.

Hi Longcoat, My husband is saying the same as yourself at the moment!! I'm just a bit worried about ticking them off and getting the runt of the litter I'm hoping we get some contact/photos before the balance of the money is due..... Good Luck with your new puppy and hope everything works out fine. Jules Yes, it's a worry sometimes and you try and be patient and not allow the overwhelming excitment become a nuisence to the breeder, but fair's fair, especially the amount of trust we have no option to place with an interstate purchase. I have actually had thoughts of flying over to collect my puppy if I can link a couple of cheap flights together. Good luck with your's too Jule's, all the best ;)

Bugger'em Jules, excuse the expletive. You are on the other side of the country, you have paid your money in good faith and need some answers that they are obliged to provide. I am personally a bit wound up on a similar situation myself waiting for photo's and confirmation of my deposit on an interstate deal, and tomorrow I plan to phone the breeders and advise them of my feelings on the situation. This sort of stuff is just poor business practice and they need to be answerable as to why they haven't responded and they have an obligation to meet what they agreed upon. I wouldn't beat around the bush, I would phone and ask them directly, where's your photo's and where's the confirmation of your deposit etc etc

Mine get by on a 30-40 minute walk a day, none if I can't be bothered, and a frisbee run once a week or so. They are very laid back inside, generally just lie around looking gorgeous and angling for pats and treats. I think they would be a good match for collies, they seem to have similar temperaments. Maybe contact Kerry Webb (Ngalla kennels in Tas) she breeds both Aussies and Collies. She'd be able to give you a run down on how they get along together. How many collies do you have now? You had 3, didn't you? I am also considering a different breed for my next dog, after we sell our house and move, but I keep coming back to Aussies because they are just so easy to live with and so responsive. Other breeds I'm considering......Finnish Lapphund, Collies, Pointers (big departure there but I adore them), Tibetan Terrier. Yep I had three. I am really missing having more than one dog. I couldn't get one yet but is never too early to start getting into a breed. I know Collies do suit me and I would ALWAYS have one (or three, heh) but the only other breed I've had is a Shepherd. I love the LOOK of Aussies, but would have to be careful I didn't get a high energy one. I would do obedience, but not competition obedience. Samoyeds - I do like them but all the ones I've met have been hyper? No to Goldies (and labs) - too destructive as young adults for me Be careful not to judge lack of training and poor upbringing misconstrude as breed specific behaviours. I have spent 30 years with Labs, Flatcoats and Goldens and have never suffered destruction issues with young adults

Some time ago, I naturally assumed that security dogs were all trained and accredited to work with a security officer and having an interest in working dogs myself, when the opportunity arises to speak with a security officer about his dog, you tend to engage in an interesting chat and was shocked to say the least learning that some of the dogs were their untrained pets, mostly GSD's or Rotties. Particularly, I saw a security officer with a GSD speaking with some young guy's messing around with a teller machine at our local shopping centre one night, and the dog was standing behind the officer, tail between it's legs peering around the officers legs. When the offending guys moved forward to go on their way, the dog pulled it's head back in like a fear response where the whole body language of the dog didn't look right in a security role. I spoke with the officer out of interest about his dog when he told me that she was his family pet GSD and enjoys to go walking on patrol with him. The most alarming thing as many pet owners like to believe that their dog will protect them, this security officer told the same story with a dog that looked petrified to confrontation. Security work comes with some vulnerability for attack and to have an untrained dog assumed to provide protection qualities when required I thought was a dangerous assumption to rely upon in a security role. On this basis where untrained and unverified dogs can be used in security, the breeders of these dogs often quote that their lines are suitable for security and have seen some of these lines tested in Schutzhund training where they have failed the most basic character tests and are totally unsuitable for a security role, yet people have purchased these lines for security work from what are essentially unproven credientials. Personally, I feel some caution seeing security officers with showline GSD's & Rotties knowing that good security prospects are not easily attainable in these types and when seeing working line GSD's or Belgian Malinios on duty I found when speaking with these officers, the dogs are carefully selected and trained and the calmness and confidence in the dog's body lanuage is competely different to the family pet. Most importantly IMHO, entering K9 security, guidence from officers and companies that use proven working line dogs and specialised trainers are the people to provide the best advice.

Did you get a price list, just for interest???.

As far as I know it is the same all over Australia. That system lends itself to many problems using untrained and unaccredited pet dogs in security not only for officer/dog but also the bloodlines of these dogs being passed on as potential security lines without the lines being properly established. Big difference between an accredited security dog and merely taking your dog to work???.

All dog owners are obliged to comply with the laws and it's when they fail in their duty, things go wrong. If the owners of the poor little Foxy kept their dog contained properly, it would still be alive. I can't see any relevence in this instance to do with big and small dogs