Longcoat

A purebred dog costs less than $2.00 per week over a 10 year lifespan on the purchase price. It can be difficult to find $1000 to buy the dog initially, but less than $2.00 per week I think is cheap for quality potential when looking at costs this way???

there are plenty of small fluffy dogs and big fluffy dogs, the public just have oodles rammed down their throats so they think they're the ONLY option out there. And considering the pricetag you cannot say it's because they're cheap or reliable at all They wont be a breed, most that I've met are just odd. Random creations with no real aim, what is there to create? Crossbreeding has a limited place in invention, creation and saving some lines of dogs. Just doing it for the sake of it ... why? Then why breed at all? We have some people over the road from us with 2 Golden Retriever Standard Poodle crossbreed dogs who seriously think these dogs are a special breeding As Nekhbet has mentioned the public having oodles rammed down their throats is the exact case with the people here that we know. These people actually didn't know that a GR/SP (Groodle) they call them are not a recognised breed and they paid$2000 + GST for each of these dogs and got "PAPERS" with them Without sounding offensive to anyone, these dogs are are simply a mongrel breeding no better than any other crossbred dog and are not worth $2000 + GST............and I would love to view the "PAPERS" What really rattles my chain is they look down at my Golden Retriever papered pedigree as substandard to their designer breeding

That's a response I would guess is from a working dog trainer, Schutzhund, security/protection Nekhbet???

Depends on a lot of things here....i also have an oversized dog (70cms) YIKES and he is 40kgs, vet said to me after we saw him for the first time, he was about to come in and go off about having an shepherd at 40kgs, but then stopped when he saw how tall Rajko was, the weight is all the extra bone on him!! LOL I would imagine at 70cm's, Rajko's build at 40kg's would be similar to my boy's 36kg's at 67cm's. I have seen a few 40kg males at 65cm's which to me look overweight I don't think my boy could carry much more than 38kg's before he would loose his waistline

The modern training systems do enable training of low drive dogs which is a tremendous advantage to the owners of those dogs where they can now participate and enjoy training their dog, but having said that, far more time is spent training low drive dogs where years ago the low drive dogs were rejected. I still believe although the modern training systems do extract the potential of low drive dogs, a high drive dog remains the choice for any serious work or sport required of a dog. Using a low drive dog in my "old school" mentality I think is still an option of compromise.

'K9 Force' date='21st Jan 2010 - 04:06 PM' post='4273740'] You have identifed "exactly" what I was trying to say K9 When I first ever saw drive training conducted, some of the dogs participating I though from experience with the old training methods, were not good prospects. But although they weren't brilliant dogs, they could work reasonably well trained in newer methods. You are absolutely correct saying these same dogs in the old days would have definitely failed without question. The newer methods do extract a dogs full potential much more easily than it used to be.

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Gee, over 40kg's seems heavy for a male GSD???. My boy is 2 years 7 months 67cm's (over max height) and weighs 36kg. I guess some bloodlines must vary??? We have always fed our dogs on mince rice and vegies with sardines twice a week and some dry dog biscuits in the morning. Our last old boy made 15 years on that diet............perhaps nothing to do with his diet???

Hi Kateshep, I was participating in another thread about drive and thinking how years ago when I started training in the 70's as a teenager there was a lot more importance placed upon a dog's natural working ability as nowdays, so many more training methods have been discovered to build drive and many cases it works reasonably well. I understand what Manfred Heyne is saying using balls, food etc to encourage or almost bribe a dog to work because I often feel the same seeing dogs training today in these methods as in my early days, many of these dogs requiring this type of training to encourage drive would have been rejected and deemed by the old school trainers as no good and lacking natural working ability. The selection criteria for a working dog was a lot harsher back then and a dog wasn't given a lot of chances to prove it's self. Many of the old GSD trainers in Australia did regard herding abilty as a test of breed correctness with the belief that if a GSD could herd, it had the correct temperament, if one couldn't herd, avoid any pups from those breedings???. Also the SV in Germany accept an HDH herding title instead of a Schutzhund title to enter a Korung (breed survey), but there is a protection routine at the Korung that a herding titled dog must pass. All GSD's in Germany must have either a Schutzhund or herding title to be shown or bred under the SV registery to confirm the dog has workability.

Agree with you here, Longcoat. It was pretty much defence drive; pack drive; and/or prey drive. Prey drive has been disected into a few divisions that I never used by way of terminology either. Once I understood what prey drive was about, conceptually speaking, I think to me it was fairly clear for my purposes what aspect of "prey drive" was desired for what purpose. I seem to recall that it was the USA folks who began the trend of breaking "prey drive" down to multi-facited drives. All part of the one, but each a different phase of it. And I guess the purpose for that might have been to be able to use the written word to a faceless audience by way of explanation of training aspects. I'm only surmising that from the small descriptive break-down of terms came others who then branched off with their own terminologies. Break-downs of break-downs, so to speak. I too look at it sometimes and wonder at how many 'drives' came from one. This is just my own thoughts and theories on how the terminologies evolved to what they've become today and I do become a bit concerned that they'll get so watered down to lose their true meaning and essence if we're not careful. A perfect drive summary Erny............the breakdowns creating further breakdowns of what we originally knew as just a "drivey" dog became somewhat confusing for me anyway It was the US too, I remember reading some magazines and trying to digest it all

I’m no expert but with Annie it's been about using her natural desires and channelling the drive into something more useful. So giving her an outlet for that drive. Annie has great drive but used to be obsessed with moving objects – animals, birds, bikes, cars etc – but now through drive training she gets drive satisfaction from her ball/toys instead. Still working on certain birds though lol... That's for sure kayla1, you do redirect drives into useful work. Annie sounds like a great dog and is what we would call a drivey dog in general........although those drives do have their moments of frustration

Don't think it is "modern" training "systems" as such - been around for a long long time. I think perhaps it is in more recent times that explanation on how to do it has come to the forefront. And when people are learning, some structure is usually needed until they become a bit more familiar with it. And with structure comes 'step by step' style instruction, or people become a bit lost. It's not a "devise" as such, although I don't think you intended the word to be used in its real sense. And if the "natural desire" wasn't there, you wouldn't get anything from it. It is about taking that "natural desire" and encouraging it to 'bloom', shall we say. And then using what you have encouraged to 'bloom' to attain the best in obedience/performance that you can. Of course if the dog is genetically blessed with high drive, it is easier and you can use that drive in many more situations. But even with dogs where that drive is not strong, but is there, if it has been nurtured, you can use it in some situations. But whatever the strength of drive, it has to be there genetically anyway. You can nurture a seed to sprout and become a tree or a bush or plant or whatever its genetic makeup dictates what it will be. You can't nurture a small plant seed to become a tree though. Hi Erny, I first became interested in training as a teenager in the 70's, and selecting a puppy with drive was the essence. Until gaining some experience what to look for in a pup, we used to have someone who was experienced pick your puppy, take their word for it an off you go, and rarely were our puppy selectors wrong in their choices. As time evolved, you are correct that more explanations did come to the forefront how to do things along with many different types of drives which then I had never heard of from ball drive, food drive, prey drive etc etc, the drive list appears endless. I think nowdays, with better training methods to develop drives, there is less black and white as there used to be years ago, where dogs were more harshly assessed as being a good prospect or not. Many a time I remember someone leaving the training field in tears having been told their dog hasn't got it where perhaps today something positive could have been found in the same dogs with the advances in training concepts???. My meaning of "device" as such is the process/method as a whole I was referring to

I was hoping to post a pic of my dog behind the wheel of my car as an image in drive, he likes a high driving position.! My boys are back seat drivers, but why if they ever bark in the car, is it always right in your ear when you least expect it

I have worked a friend's BC and and she did make my GSD look a little heavy and cumbersome

Someone mentioned the "jargon" and to be honest although I have trained for many years, I find the drive jargon rather confusing In the old days, drive was a natural passion that a dog had to do something. It wasn't a taught behaviour, the dog either had it or not, like some dogs love to chase things including things that they shouldn't be chasing , and some were more lazy, couldn't be bothered..........can you get that ball for me attitude as you threw it too far away???. A high drive dog, was basically an energetic dog with a passion for physical performance and that was about it. Training highly driven dogs in the old terminology, they did everything taught to them with vigor and passion which stemmed from a genetic trait, you didn't purposely initiate vigor and passion, it was already there and waiting with the best dogs, infact, the difficulty was trying to stop the vigor..........like just lay down and rest for a while as the dog had the endurance to go and go???. Sometimes to me, the exercises used to intitiate vigor (drive) in modern training systems seems like a device to energise dogs that don't really have the natural desires if that makes sense to anyone , but fortunately there appears to be many well knowledged people here on these drive topics and in time I will no doubt learn something. Some very interesting concepts in this thread

A dog biting a child is generally the evil of all evil's in the canine world, but kids can do some really silly things to provoke being bitten like stapling a dogs ear. There was something else I read about a kid shoving a pencil into a dogs ear with the same result after the dog being PTS, they found what the child had done to the dog

We have a deposit on a GSD puppy since early December from a pending litter due in February. Excitement is building even though they are yet to be born Only a few weeks to go now to see how many pups are born and hoping that all goes well.

If someone had an interest in breeding and learning from experienced breeders, a contract as such could be a good way to start, but if breeding is not your interest, I wouldn't enter into a contract like that personally and as someone else has mentioned, buy a puppy with no strings attached.