Longcoat

Yes, they would have to be registerable on limited with the ANKC. It's no different to a longcoat GSD???. Providing the parents were ligitimately eligible for main register, I can't see how they can be rejected along with any other disqualifing fault with any other breed on limited register.

That was always one of the old "trainer tales" when I first began in the 70's, also we never desexed which was thought to lower drive an effect muscle tone which led to the situation if you wanted a seriously good dog, it had to be an entire boy and you ran with what the people who were good trainers back then advised. The most impressive girls that I have seen of late with the best focus which only amounts to 4 or 5 to compare with were desexed???.

in 18 years of living at the same address I have only had rangers do their door to door check once! Even though they do it annually. And I only had to show them one tag, they never asked to see all of them. (The collar and tag were hanging on hook on the front porch). I have never ever, wherever I have lived, been spoken to a ranger while out walking my dog, so have never had one check my dogs collar for tags. One of mine lost their tag soon after the I got the new ones, I still haven't got a replacement ;) I'll get a new one in April when I renew SA is defininitely more relaxed in dog laws than Vic, but I have never been approached by a ranger on a walk either, can't say I have ever seen a ranger out and about full stop. I don't know where my dog tags are exactly, would have to hunt around for them???.

Purely out of interest, does a vasectomy in a male dog classify as desexed under this legislation???

I have noticed quite a large number of people trialling in agility, flyball etc have females and was wondering what kind of male/female ratio's are working in those sporting disciplines???. I haven't trialled in agility for many years which used to be more male dominated or should I say the more serious trainers who did well generally trialled males thinking that they were a better choice for ultimate performance. Of late, I trial in Schutzhund which is generally male dominant, but I am interested to know if there are differences between trialling either???. I have seen some excellent bitches in Schutzhund, probably lacking some power in some areas, but extremely fast and agile being of smaller stature than a heavier male. Interesting to know if people do have a preference???

This confuses me when it comes to prey drive being a fixed action pattern there are several stages to prey drive, stalk, run pounce. I have been told/read (can't remember where from) that for an animal to complete this sequence (brain circuit) they need adrenaline as a buffer against slight pain as they need to ignore pain as it may stop them from catching their dinner. The same can be said for defense drive (as in fight or flight) to feel pain and worry about it could cause them to die if in a fight or fleeing from something. Or have I completely missed the point ;) Maybe he is saying that drive is a fleeting moment of emotion bought about by a stimulus to make the body prepare for action. This to me would be drive initialization Terminology interpretation sheesh cheers M-J M-J, I don't really get it either Excitement, adrenaline, drive whatever to me has the result of the dog wanting to perform a physical activity which is all that matters in the end. I was thinking about this earlier this evening hand watering in the backyard and my GSD goes nuts over the hose and bounces around like a fool when the hose comes out wanting to bite at the water. He has "hose drive" if you like , but placing him in sit to watch me hosing away, his front feet are bouncing, he's puffing and his body shaking with what I don't really know???, but on the release word from the sit, he lunges at the water stream with total vigor and will out and sit again through the same process until the release to re-engage the water again. To me it's a drive function and a training process during major distraction. The harder you work him like this, the greater the vigor he produces.

If enough breeders were concerned about working ability you'd think they would have some kind of test organised by now........, so no they don't seem to care/or ignorance plays a part. The working people are doing their own thing outside of the GSDCA. The GSDCA have no interest in preserving working ability and are the core group that channel the breeders not to be concerned about it either. The GSDCA are so involved in destroying the breeds working ability, like the working people and others doing their best to maintain the breed standards are the GSDCA's most disliked group. How can a controlling body (GSDCA) condemn and block the preservation of the working ability of a working dog makes no sense to me as to how they get away with it:confused:

Which is why Belgian Malinois are becoming the most common used breed by Police, Military and Correctional departments around the world. That's exactly what's happening Jeff, and although personally I have nothing but admiration for the performance of a good Mal, it's sad to see my beloved GSD loosing it's grip in the process

That's the whole point with the laws, there is no proper policing structure and they get the easy targets and the people abiding by the laws they set, are not the problem owners in the first place.

I had a client who came to me and informed me that she hadn't taken her (now) 6 month old pup to training before, because the schools that she enquiried with in her area would not accept dogs unless they were registered, and that she was unable to register her pup unless it was desexed, but she didn't want to desex her pup before the age of 6 months. That was about a week or two ago - before I heard or knew of all of what is being discussed in this thread. I queried this owner, as I'd not heard of any school insisting on Council registration as a pre-requisite to accepting it as a member. But this is definitely as she understood it - to her it was made very clear. This is third hand. I still don't know the accuracy of the information, but given what we are discussing here, it now doesn't surprise me as much as it did then. It may be a council funded training school perhaps???, I have never heard of that requirement to join a club generally only proof of vaccination certificates

'SpikesPuppy' date='24th Jan 2010 - 09:56 PM' post='4281995'] Longcoat' post='4281974' date='24th Jan 2010 - 10:21 PM'] Laws are only as good as the policing structure, bit like the dogs on leash laws in a public place I agree that people shouldn't be placed in that position as desexing puppies under 3 months in my opnion is clearly stupid. However, I would travel down the outlaw dog owner route in that instance and take the chance not registering my pup until desexing took place. The council would only know how long you had actually owned the dog if you told them. They would be none the wiser if registering a 14 month old dog that you nominated was aquired last week Victoria seems to be the pioneers of the dopy dog legislation

I have to agree with you Cosmolo. I don't understand the harshness of the legislation either as it primarily targets only dog owners who don't play the game. There is really no excuse not to register your dog with council other than to flaunt with the laws Because (according to some DOLers who live in these councils), you cannot register a dog that is undesexed (with the exception of VCA reg'd pups or with a letter from the vet so it seems), meaning you MUST have your puppy desexed before it reaches 3 months of age. Call me cynical or paranoid if you wish but I also see this kind of 'power' that the councils are putting over pet owners as another step toward zero or at the very least, heavily regulated pet ownership. We can't own the breeds we want, we can't own entire dogs, you wait and soon there will be NO exceptions to this desexing rule in certain areas. There will probably be height and weight restrictions in some areas too. I understand from this perspective, but seriously what is the likleyhood of getting caught with an unregistered puppy pending de-sexing over 3 months of age in those councils???. Never can I recall in my lifetime a ranger knocking on my door or being questioned over dog registration. In fact, I know several people owning two or more dogs of the same breed only ever register one dog with the council and nothing has ever come of it???. These practices are legally wrong, but how intense is the policing of such crimes???

Not all farmers register their dogs with local council. A working dog works best entire. These days most councils charge higher rates for undesexed dogs or you need to produce proof of desexing. You get the picture. Do they work better unregistered too???. Sorry Kelpie-i, I just couldn't resist my response

I have to agree with you Cosmolo. I don't understand the harshness of the legislation either as it primarily targets only dog owners who don't play the game. There is really no excuse not to register your dog with council other than to flaunt with the laws

Do you recall how those particular dogs scored in the shows???. In SA, any of the extremely angulated dogs of American lines would not score well and are generally considered most undesirable examples. It's difficult to image why someone would import those lines

Agree Longcoat, ;) I haven't heard that about gsds in australia before....It is interesting hearing what many old timers say about schutzhund and herding titles in past times. As in the above interview with Manfred where he critisises the falling standards in obtaining working titles in herding, the same tone continues to ring about schutzhund and the protection component at the Sieger show. Many breeds had working origins that today are seldom required and probably isn't overly important in some breeds that their working ability is preserved. But the GSD is one breed that is still used as a working dog in reasonably large volumes especially in search and rescue, police K9 units and security which in my opinion needs to be preserved. It was only Thursday night's Channel 7 News in Adelaide that featured a section on the police K9 squad requesting GSD's for police evaluation and training and specifically mentioned that not "all" GSD's are up to the task. I have been fortunate enough on two previous occassions to have attended a police K9 recruitment and testing day with around 20 odd dogs tested, only 2 or 3 resulted in the perception of having K9 potential which amounts to a massive percentage of failures I think is rather sad. Speaking with one of the K9 trainers, he said that the amount of unsuitable GSD's is growing as time evolves which more confirms that working ability within the breed shows a definite decline. Germany did water down the workability tests at Seiger shows in regard to the Schutzhund component to enable more dogs to pass the tests, but at least the remaining tests are generally a guide that a pass does confirm some workability, but in Australia we have virtually no workability testing at all ;) . I can't for the life of me, understand why we should automatically assume without workability testing that show results determine a quality breeding . I can't see how workability can be preserved in the breed when workability testing isn't conducted either???. However, we do have a small minority of breeders dedicated in maintaining the breeds workablity who I truely admire their efforts

Drive as I understand it I agree is the "state of the dog", the desire to do something. Many people teach their dogs words or sentences like, "go for a walk, go for a ride etc" and the dog runs around squeals and barks like a mad thing anticipating a walk or ride in the car and is in a state of drive from my perspective. Training in drive to me could be gaining obedience whilst in this state of arousal like opening the car door and making the dog sit and wait for a release to get in the car. I taught my GSD to jump which I believe was done in drive. Jumping is one exercise that is easier to achieve when the dog has the passion to jump and wants to do it. As soon as I mention the word "jump", he immediately switches into drive, his ears go forward, neck stretched up and tail out anticipating what he will jump over. The reward in this exercise is allowing him to perform the jump itself, the physical challenge is satisfying for the dog it seems. There is a distinct difference in the level of enthusiasm depending on the physical challenge of the jump. He will jump anything, but a small jump, a foot off the ground doesn't create the level of drive and adrenaline as jumping a higher jump or his favorite jump which is over an old car body or the Schutzhund A frame which is 6 feet high. The dog becomes an adrenaline junkie to physical challenges

No and No. I dont think that anybody should "deliberately" breed crossbred dogs at all. There are way tooo many crossbred dogs being PTS in pounds now without people producing more of them. To those that say purebred dogs are too expensive and people just want a "pet".......then go to the pound and rescue one. And, as already said, there are plenty of breeds of purebred dogs around - so there is a breed out there to suit. Maybe if more ppl supported purebred dog breeders, that breeders would have more homes for the minority breeds and hence maybe look at breeding a little bit more often. There are two types of crossbreed owner that I am thinking about at the moment in terms of cost. I remember years ago, a family who really wanted a Golden Retriever puppy and their budget wouldn't stretch to the $600 at the time to buy one and they settled for a yellow Labrador cross breed for $50. Their lab X was gold and inherited the traditional Retriever head and face and was the closest they could afford to a purebred GR and this dog was the love of their lives which they provided an excellent home, trained the dog which ended up a great companion and pet. Finding a puppy they wanted for $50 even though it was a BYB crossbreed, allowed this family who were not overly financial to have a dog in their lives. Then there is the other type of crossbreed owner, and these are the type that irritate me who could afford to buy the entire kennel and justify that buying a purebred is not worthy enough to spend that amount of money on a mere dog. A dog to these owners means 4 legs and a tail and the cheaper the better???. Having said that, most of the people that I know who have aquired crossbreeds on that basis, don't tend to look after them particulary well either I have noticed

Hi Angelsun, I agree with your description of some American showlines, but I don't know of any reproducers in Australia or anyone using American showlines as breeding stock???. West German showlines are generally what is reproduced here in compliance with the SV conformation requirements. A German show judge would "never" place a good conformation rating on an American showline as you have described and dog's that walk on their hocks are not winning conformation shows or exhibit as a correct example of the breed.

Hi Steve, I read somewhere once, that the foundation of BSL began with the forming of a policy that breeds of a "fighting origin" shall be restricted, and the breeds falling into that category where then listed. The BSL as I understand it lists specific breeds on the basis of "fighting origin" and the problem is that regardless of where those breeds have evolved today fails to impact upon the tunnel vision perception that the breeds once had a fighting origin and contradicts the foundation policy. The strategy should perhaps focus on the fact like many other breeds that their original "fighting" purpose in most cases have been genetically removed as time evolved??? Thats true but since then there has been lots of work done and the recent report in the UK is a good feather in anti BSL's cap and one they should capitalise on.There have also been public statements by RSPCA and several other dog people to support that. Probably the only real pain you still have to fight is Hugh Wirth - thats a pretty big pain because he is in the pockets of National and state policy makers but its a good shot to have a go at it. You cant prove that all dogs of a particular origin no longer have their original drive - so why go there ? You can say all dogs regardless of breed or what their original purpose was can bite and its a people issue not a dog issue. Sure arm yourself with as much science and evidence that you can so that you are able to defend a breed if and when its named or denegrated but publicly push for eqality in the laws. The ability to own the dog of your choice as long as you are responsible with it and the focus on responsible dog ownership for all dog owners regardless of breed. Politically there is a fair window there for that to take off where earlier it was a lot more difficult. Personally I think the biggest hurdle from a political perspective is the general public's reaction to a proposal for overturning BSL, bearing in mind people that hate dogs are also involved in those decision making processes and are bound to kick up about such a proposal. I don't think owning a breed of choice carries much weight as it could be argued that owning a pet of choice should also be permitted for example someone wanting a pet tiger instead of a domestic cat???. Perhaps more demonstration work with those breeds, specifically the APBT which is the most common restricted breed to prove that they are credible pets as an education process. A few years ago a friend of ours had what he called a Staffy cross and she was a delightful dog. Sally her name was after several years, our friend told us she was actually an APBT I didn't think that I had ever met an APBT and would have expected at least severe dog aggression if ever I met one, but Sally happily played with my dogs and she was as stable and reliable as any other well bred and trained dog. I have met several APBT's since, all have been really good dogs

Hi Steve, I read somewhere once, that the foundation of BSL began with the forming of a policy that breeds of a "fighting origin" shall be restricted, and the breeds falling into that category where then listed. The BSL as I understand it lists specific breeds on the basis of "fighting origin" and the problem is that regardless of where those breeds have evolved today fails to impact upon the tunnel vision perception that the breeds once had a fighting origin and contradicts the foundation policy. The strategy should perhaps focus on the fact like many other breeds that their original "fighting" purpose in most cases have been genetically removed as time evolved???

I imagine that there are APBT breeders in Australia that breed a quality dog and people heavily involved in the breed would know where to get a puppy from ;) Hypothetically, what would stop perhaps a couple of APBT breeders from aquiring between themselves some main registered Amstaffs, conduct their APBT breedings on Amstaff papers and escape the BSL restrictions on that basis???. The puppies are sold to responsible people in the know so to speak as they possibly are already, registered/licenced as Amstaffs that grow up into good canine citizens and who in authority would be any the wiser, except the dedicated APBT owner and enthusiast would have an unrestricted dog to enjoy life like any other recognised breed as they should be able to???.

These are my books & video's ;) The Koehler Method of Dog Training William Koehler Guard Dog Training William Koehler Advanced Schutzhund Ivan Balabanov & Karen Duet Obediance Without Conflict (CD) Ivan Balabanov Der Schutzhund Helmut Raiser Tracking Gottfried Dildei Purely Positive Training Sheila Booth How To Raise A Working Puppy Ed Frawley

Why don't a family wanting a pet deserve a quality, healthy pup bred by a reputable breeder? I paid less than $1000 for both my pedigree dogs, I would easily pay double that if it meant I was getting the best pet I could to suit my family. Plenty of families happily dosh $1000 or way more for a cute crossbred from a pet store, puppy farmer or BYBer. Despite meeting many lovely crossbreeds and owning one myself I won't take the gamble that comes with buying a crossbred pup. I know what I want in a dog, what suits me, and buying a purebred from a reputable breeder gives me the best chance there is at getting a dog to suit my and my family's lifestyle. I am sorry Huski, that quote isn't mine

A purebred dog costs less than $2.00 per week over a 10 year lifespan on the purchase price. It can be difficult to find $1000 to buy the dog initially, but less than $2.00 per week I think is cheap for quality potential when looking at costs this way???