Longcoat

I do not know of anyone in Newcastle. I would suggest the person travels out to see K9 Force for a honest opinion of the dog's suitability. That is correct, there is no individual accreditation for security dog's. Where about in NSW are you located, I might be able to recommend someone. Having no accreditation for security dogs presents a problem where I have met several security officers in SA and one in NSW with untrained pet GSD's on the job for visual deterrent I agree and have been recommending for quite sometime that the NSW Security Industry Registry implements changes so individual dog's need to seek accreditation prior to working. I believe in SA, the security officer must hold a dog handlers certificate and any dog can then accompany them on patrol.

That is correct, there is no individual accreditation for security dog's. Where about in NSW are you located, I might be able to recommend someone. Having no accreditation for security dogs presents a problem where I have met several security officers in SA and one in NSW with untrained pet GSD's on the job for visual deterrent

I think you would find on a head count across the world that the GSD would be largest group of service/PP dogs by a large amount. Many of the countries and departments that have switched to Mal's and Dutchies have not always been due to the GSD's lack of performance and in many cases it's been a cost containment exercise given that Mal's and Dutchies are better value for money. The equivilant quality in a GSD generally comes at a greater cost which has been a factor in many breed change strategies. Some departments use all three breeds and interstingly, some jobs are reserved for GSD's especially crowd control and riots, I have read on several occasions where Mal's and Dutchies will spook and loose the plot where a GSD can remain clear headed in those conditions. Search and rescue is another job I have heard that the GSD's work better than the Mal's and Dutchie's with their superior ability to air scent. The GSD's on most accounts are easier to handle than Mal's and Dutchie's, but then the Mal's and Dutchie's are faster and more intense and although better in some areas, not as versitile across the board. It depends largely on what type of work you need from the dog where one breed is more adaptable than the other. As far as the Rotti goes, they don't use them in what are essentially GSD, Mal and Dutch roles where optimum performance is required. Not saying they can't do the job, they can, but not as well across the board, like the Dobe are more reserves for the main team. The Rotti is a natural guard dog with man stopping power and awesomely hard bite, but as a service dog they are said to tire out and loose focus when worked for extended periods. They lack endurance, manouverability and speed and genetically suffer from oxygen depleation in their breathing compared with the others due to their chest cavity apparantly. There are other issues with the Rotti that is known to leave them short when ultimate performance from a dog is a necessity???. There is plenty of interesting information and opinions published when splitting hairs in regard to the performance of working breeds. At world level Schutzhund competition Mal's don't always win and are beaten reguarly by GSD's, but essentially I would believe it's an easier task to find a good sporting Mal than a GSD and more GSD failures occur in the sport. At the top level of both breeds in sport, there is not a whole lot between them, however I would believe that a garden variety Mal would be a far better Schutzhund prospect than a garden variety GSD.

How many Rotties did you see beat Nordenstamm Chiller on the long bite ;) The best Rotti will be slower on the field than the heaviest GSD. This is not a factor worth considering when choosing a suitable breed of dog for Security work, Security dog handlers can not let there dogs go offlead. The main reason companies use dogs is to firstly act as a visual deterrent. You are correct Jeff, getting a bit off track with sporting potential, but as a visual deterrent this is where I have seen fear aggressive dogs bouncing around on the end of the leash passed off as good security dogs where in fact they are not. It's also a common reference used by some breeders who claim to produce security dogs and seeing some of these dogs tested on the field after their initial bark and aggressive lunge, they run away from the helper in fear. I have also seen the owners devistated in their purchase of what was supposed to be a hard nerved and highly defense driven dog which turned out to be aggression trggered by a fear response ;) I don't know what the screening and training process is for security companies, but some of their dogs I would question their true suitability???.

Personally, I would do some research especially outside of Australia where more people dedicate their lives to producing and training high level security, service and protection dogs and you will find out what breeds are used for particular disciplines and why certain breeds are preferred to others. Rotties excel in guarding roles with exceptional strength and power and work well on their own guarding property etc, but when it comes to dog/handler teams requiring particular traits most suitable for those roles, they use GSD's. Some also use Belgian Malinios, Dutch Shepherd's, Rottie's and the odd Dobe and possibly other breeds too, but ultimately the GSD is the most widely used breed across the board in the dog/handler application which you will find when researching why they use GSD's in large proportions over other breeds there are good reasons for why the GSD is preferred in those roles. There are plenty of discussions, comparisons and deep meaningful genetic research results into the reasons why GSD's are preferred over Rotties in dog/handler working roles and my way of thinking if Rotties were the superior breed for that application they would be used widespread, in fact, you wouldn't see GSD's as police K9 for example in that case, they would be Rotties right across the board???. IMHO, I would keep an open mind to the breed and do some research before making a decision, not saying that a Rotti wouldn't make the perfect security partner for your personal requirements, but learning why the majority of professionals don't use Rotties in those roles would be worthwhile knowledge to gain. ;)

How many Rotties did you see beat Nordenstamm Chiller on the long bite The best Rotti will be slower on the field than the heaviest GSD.

Thanks for your advice Angelsun. The puppies we are looking at are only 5 1/2 weeks old, essentially a bit young as recommended with the Volhard test, but getting pressured a bit with other prospective buyers to make a choice out of the three. I know that some develop faster which can also provide a false indication comparing the puppies energy levels at a young age also.

I am not aware that Rotti's in general make the best security dogs although there are probably exceptions to that in some lines, but they are big cumbersome dogs that run out off puff more easily in extended work loads compared with a medium sized working line GSD or Belgian Malinios. The specialised security trainers would have good insights into the breed differences.

I agree with Nekhbet's advice. Too many security dogs especially some GSD's are actually overly sharp weak nerved dogs IMHO, are of incorrect temperament for that line of work and difficult to handle. They often end up in security as the original owners couldn't handle them, then the breeders of those dogs claim fame to producing police/security lines. I have seen some of these supposed police/security lines tested although they look the part and intimidating with what is essentially fear based aggression, when pressured turn to water and run away. It's most definitely necessary to obtain a dog from experienced working line breeders and trainers and to be aware of nasty looking fear driven aggression passed off as natural protection instincts which in many cases is incorrect. I have seen so many GSD's defined as displaying great security prospects where the aggression in these poor dogs is pure fear on the basis of "I will get you before you get me" which becomes a learned behaviour.

I am wondering if anyone uses the Volhard aptitude test to select potential working puppies and interested to know from anyone experienced with the Volhard test if the procedure is an effective process???. We are contemplating to use the Volhard test on a working line GSD litter as a guage having the pick of the 3 males from the litter to help select the puppy with the best working/sporting potential. Any opinions on puppy testing or the Volhard system would be greatly appreciated

Many of the "old school" trainers used to teach calling the dogs name then a command like "Bob sit", "Bob come", "Bob heel" etc. When I began training in the 70's, calling the dogs name with a command was rather common. Funnily I remember my old Golden Retriever boy trained like this years ago ended up working out what I wanted just calling his name in various situations. When you stopped walking and called his name, he would sit automatically and calling his name walking he would heel I can't recall if it was a good thing back then or not, but simply calling his name seemed to cover a range of commands???. Nowday's I don't generally use their names very much in training.

CRAP! I am sorry Crisovar, I don't see it that way and more to the point, people here are talking about dogs barking and acting scary frightening away unsavory characters which many dogs will do successfully I agree, but that is not stepping up and defending for real where the dog will take someone down which is a big difference. Nobody has actually given us an example of their dog going for the bite, only a perception that it would???. The only untrained dogs that I have ever known to attack in defence for real and maintain their nerve when pressured with a history of taking down offenders were guard dogs that would bite anyone other than the hand that feeds them, totally aggressive out of control and completely unsuitable for a family pet.

I am afraid I agree with Nekhbet's comment. There are some untrained dogs that will step up but in my experience such dogs are unsociable aggressive and virtually uncontrollable similar to the junk yard guard dog. Very few untrained family pets will step up and defend for real. Sure they bark and lunge and people back away and have provided a basic level of protection, but even a hard nerved guardian breed has to be trained to attack and bite. The more bites the dog experiences, the more wins the dog achieves, the more confidence the dog has to step up to the challenge which is how a protection dog is trained. There are plenty of dog savvy criminals who can unload an untrained dog and part of protection training is to counteract what the dog savvy criminals may do to the dog. IMHO, an untrained dog is a deterrent at a similar level as locks on a door, anything more serious required of the family pet will generally fail.

- Richard F. Stratton, "The Book of The American Pit Bull Terrier", 1981 An APBT indeed has an "instinctive trait" to be aggressive - towards dogs. There is a lot of evidence attesting to the APBT's stable nature around people, just as there is a lot of evidence attesting to its inclination to be extremely DA. Unfortunately, due to their sheer power and inherent "gameness", they have the potential to do serious damage to a human just like the other powerful breeds mentioned (GSDs, rotties, dobes). The problem lies with the idiots who misunderstand the breed's true nature and churn out unstable puppies from unstable parents and peddle them to other idiots who are either unwilling or unable to properly manage the dogs they are given. Cue maltreatment, a lack of socialisation and training, and encouragement of aggression. These dogs then become ticking time bombs, as would any other breed if treated the same way. APBTs have a certain "image" to certain people so there's a disproportionately large number of these dogs being treated in ways that can create instability and aggression. And the stable ones don't make headlines, so the general public doesn't know they exist. A properly bred & cared for APBT is IMO one of the least aggressive dogs you could encounter and a poorly bred & cared for APBT would have me heading for the hills in an instant. It's all in the way they're bred and handled. Personally, I can never really understand why some people looking for a "tough dog" image buy APBT's for that purpose, as the "toughness" they are after is directed against people in the attitude that having a APBT will scare everyone. :confused. The bit I find silly, is that people and authorities using high level protection dogs of man stopping aggression are not APBT's..........so why do these people buy APBT's instead of the proven protection breeds when wanting a tough dog image???. The origin of the APBT was dog fighting, not fighting humans and the concept that I too determine as idiots who use APBT's as a protective weapon doesn't make sense to me???

'Naomi83' date='30th Jan 2010 - 04:11 PM' post='4296373' Many people believe that potential aggression isn't breed related and is related to the way a dog is raised and trained which is true to some extent, but as much as I try to embrace that idea IMHO, some breeds do have more instinctive traits to be aggressive than others. In my experience with Retrievers, (Labradors, Flat Coats and Golden's) and GSD's which we have owned and trained over many years, absolutely without question, the GSD has a more aggressive instinct with more potential to bite someone than a Retriever does. Having said that, I have found the Retrievers have more potential to bite their owners than a GSD especially with food and possession aggression where a GSD is more prone to bite strangers where the Retrievers tend to love everyone and the GSD is suspicious and more territorial. Both breeds raised poorly with insufficient training would result in the GSD becoming more of a public danger than a Retriever which is a reason as I see it why the GSD along with Rotties, Dobes and Pits have attained bad reputations more so than other breeds. I do however believe that ALL breeds raised and trained properly especially the breeds with greater instinct for aggression are catered for in their raising/training correctly can be be good canine citizens. The one's that aren't raised and trained properly is what highlights the breed aggressive tendancies.

A Terv won the 26" USDAA Grand Prix Steeplechase final this year...She was the only non-BC in the class & she beat them all. Here is the link: Great video ........I am thinking there is more Mal in that dog than Turv though

Does anyone know how a Belgian Malinois would rate in agility compared with a Border Collie or Kelpie???. I did a bit of agility with a GSD years ago but he was too big and clumsy and the BC's & Kelpies ran all over him The Mals are generally more agile and faster than a GSD and I wondered in that type of working dog how a Mal would go???

We can do a poll, it would be interesting. Is there any special way that a poll is conducted here on DOL....still learning my way around

I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who thought there was absolutes in any bloodlines However many Police breeding programs are centred around the WLs, even so they can't seem to compete with what many feel is a better consistency, lower HD in Malinois genetics, not just costs of buying. A test is better than nothing I suppose but unless it is realliy testing for necessary qualities it is not doing its job. I am not so sure about working ability afterall many aussie breeders import many German bloodlines into australia, direct progeny from top VA & V dogs with Schutzhund titles. So our dogs are not tested in working ability and Germany's somewhat tested but they all come from similiar/same bloodlines, I can't imagine comparatively how there would be any huge differences from each other. This is what I was taught from several working dog breeders Kateshep: A GSD that can achieve a SchH3 title and pass the the German Korung is a fairly reasonable dog. Perhaps not the best sporting dog or the best dog at anything in particluar, but a dog good enough to train for reasonable performance in any discipline suited to the breed. One of these dogs mated to a good titled bitch would a provide a good chance of the progeny also possessing similar quality, but not necessarily all of them. Generally, you can't expect the progeny to be any better than the parents, and they can often not produce any of the parents best traits at all. The first scenario is someone imports a German SG rated untitled male from one of these titled breedings which sound good on paper, but the question is, what traits did this "untitled" progeny bring to the table in reflection of it's parents???, that we never know other than trotting around an Australian show ring, the dog is never worked or evaluated properly, but it is bred???. It may be a great dog or could be a washout from that litter and if the German's let the dog go, good chance it wasn't the best in the litter, but that we will never really know???. In the instance that it wasn't a very good dog at all, it will be mated to a local bitch which raises the question how good is the bitch???, that we don't know either because the local bitch has never been worked or assessed properly either???. Looking into the bitch ancestory lines on the female side, there hasn't been a titled bitch involved over seven generations like a revolving door, imported or titled males are put to local bitches of no working credibilty. Some of the progeny from these breedings can have good conformation but are otherwise faulty from a working potential and again are bred. As time evolves through generations of breeding progeny from untitled parentage, the working ability disappears.

The reason I asked about vasectomies is that the legilsation requires the dog to be "sterilised" which means unable to reproduce. The legislation doesn't say neutering or desexed. A male dog with a vasectomy is "sterilised" as the legislation requires???.

Wow!!!, amazing video

Speaking of body lanuage and staring, there is a house with like a wrought iron side fence who has a Rottweiler about 15 metres away from a cycle path that we walk along. The Rotty in that house goes ape barking and bouncing around at any people with dogs on the pathway. There were some people in front of us the other day on the pathway with 2 medium/small sized dogs walking along and the Rotty was going off as they passed and were pulling on the leash away from the Rotty's direction, obviously timid of the Rotty's big bark and carry on. When we reached the area opposite the fence, my GSD had been watching the Rotty as we approached, the Rotty saw us and started to bark as he does. My boy stopped, gave 2 woofs and the Rotty stopped barking. Both dogs stood motionless staring at each other, no barking, no sound, just staring at each other 15 metres or so apart. I have no idea what really goes through a dog's mind, but it appeared in my warped imagination that the 2 dogs were sizing each other up. Like the Rotty wasn't used to a dog stopping to stare where most scuttle away from his big bark and performance. It was almost like both dogs had encountered their match, two big dogs that either were unsure of both displaying dominant behaviour. We walked off and the Rotty walked off away from the fence in his yard. It was an interesting moment to watch an event such a pronounced body language and stare of equal proportion in both dogs.

"Schaferhund" is the GSD's original name meaning sheep(shepherd) dog in German. German Shepherd Dog is the english translation of German sheepdog

The highest jumpers I have seen are Belgian Malinois..........don't know where the breed would rate amoungst others though???

Whilst I agree with what you have said the problem is all over the world- If the standards in Germany were higher with showlines they would be on a par with the working lines. What I'm saying is I'm not sure what the aussies are doing is any worse than the whats happenend with the german showlines- yes they have to do schutzhund but is it really worth it at all if it's not to a decent standard ? what are they preserving ? People moan that the GSDCA has lied to the SV about the legal status of Schutzhund in Australia- but if the SV really cared about working ability it wouldn't take much to find out the truth. I disagree with the common understanding that "all" showlines have little working ability and such a belief is wrong. There are many lines in the traditional black and tan German dogs that work well in various applications and the majority of the Australian police K9's have been showlines in the past. Worldwide, good working GSD's are harder to find and come at a greater cost and is one reason why some law enforcement agencies have swapped to the Belgian Malinios, not because the Malinios is a better dog, in fact, many maintain that a "good" GSD is still their ultimate choice having worked both breeds. Any form of working test has to produce a better dog than no testing at all which occurs here in Australia, and no workability testing has no other potential than to allow the breeding of dogs that shouldn't be bred. It wouldn't I image be a too difficult a task to find lines of German showdogs that would out perform our dogs in working ability even though the SV testing has been watered down from where it used to be. I have seen over the years too many Australian showline dogs bred that would no way come close to passing the SV breed survey standards and had these dog's been German tested, their breed worthiness would be rejected where here, the same dogs can go on to be awarded as champion stock which is the difference.