Staff'n'Toller

Which State are you in?

Ok well... I've probably fitted half of them to dogs who were already wearing the Blackdog originals. The other half I have fitted to dogs who've never worn one before...and of those ones it is generally not how I like to fit them i.e. I didn't have alot of time with these dogs, and I prefer to send the owners away for a week to put it on-treat, take it off, put it on-feed their meal, take it off. Then when they return to me I'll clip a lead on and spend 10mins or so easing the dog into it. In saying that though, the latter dogs have taken to it quite well, no worse and perhaps a bit better than fitting a normal halter. No it doesn't have to fit as snugly, as the collar part where the lead clips to- is actually a martingale- or one of their 'training collars', the nose band goes over and under, and clips to a very small clip on the other side. Where it crosses over is way back under the dogs chin, so they can open their mouths pretty much fully I would say. The nose strap being nice and thin, sits lower on the dogs nose, and because there is no lead clipped to it, it doesn't move or ride up under the dogs eye. The amount of correction over the nose is directly related to how much correction you are giving on the martingale, so for those that are familiar- the wider you set the strap that threads through the collar, the more of a correction it gives. So, the advantages are that it's a martingale first, halter second, when you give a correction, the martingale corrects first, then the halter over the top of the dogs nose, but there is nothing much happening to irritate the dog under the mouth. You can train the dog to heel or walk without pulling, then theoretically remove the nose band, and the dog is already used to the feeling of the martingale. It removes the fear of doing damage to a dogs neck, because you can't really turn the head. I would still use the original one for dogs that eyeball in classes, as you can turn their head and change their focus with relative ease, and dogs that may be aggressive, because you can use an original double connected, and as long as they are not a huge danger or of huge size and weight, it can take the place of the muzzle when handlers are shown the right way to close the mouth quickly in an emergency situation. The infin8 is an interesting piece of equipment....I'm curious to see where they go...at Blackdog they are doing the right thing too by only releasing them to trainers at the moment, and I had a fitting lesson from the maker before he allowed me to take some to try. Cheers, Mel. ETA: I've never routinely used or sold the Gentle Leaders, out of all the designs I like them the least, I think they just don't work well for many breeds.

Yep.

Is she an adult dog or a pup? Mel.

If you're in Vic then the BARF patties are quite easy to get a hold of. They are quite bulky, and contain the ground bones, offal, vegies and yoghurt etc. all in one. They are a bit pricey especially for larger dogs, I feed one of my dogs a pattie and a cup of dry as a night meal...I would love to do homemade BARF but I just don't have the time or the storage space, so raw meaty bones + BARF patties + plus a bit of dry is the best I can manage at the moment. They come frozen but are easy to separate still frozen with a butter knife, then put straight back in the freezer in single/double/triple portions. My guys love 'em! They are gone in about 10 seconds. BARF Victoria Just click on the link and go to the 'distributors' tab if you're interested. Cheers, Mel.

Staffy's are notorious for having bad mouths, as with other short nosed breeds, all those teeth just don't fit in their head! BYB Staff's are the worst cause no-one takes any notice of the mouths of either dog and then breed them willy nilly. My Stafford's top and bottom molars don't meet at all, at some points I would say there is a 3-4mm gap between them...and yes she has alot of trouble eating bones, so I tend to give her greenies and 4X2's biscuits which are easier to chew, and it doesn't matter so much if she swallows larger pieces. The Hallam and Sandringham Vets would be a good start if you're especially worried, they can do orthodontics for dogs and fit plates etc., but I would be thinking about cost & trauma for the dog Vs. maybe just removing the offending teeth. The canines could well cause ulcers to the hard palate up the top, and ulcers to the lips if they are malalligned....so it's worth talking to your Vet about. But wait until she's 10mths or so, the teeth will move around a fair bit in puppyhood. Cheers, Mel.

Anne- good post. I find it interesting that we are in page 4 already, and the trainers who believe they don't need headcollars, and can teach dogs to stop pulling with a choker chain, still haven't said how they do it. I actually do know how they do it...but was waiting for someone - anyone - to post about their expertise. I also ponder alot about the successes at training vs. the successes in real life. A training centre can be artificial to a dog, just like dogs who bite their owners trying to medicate them, wouldn't dare to it in a Vet clinic with a novel handler. A Dog Trainer can be novel to a dog, the Dog Trainer (usually) has much better timing than the actual owner of said dog, they can usually read the dog better, and have more confidence in handling and also correcting the dogs' behaviour, but I just wonder how many owners actually 'get it' and are able to continue - and more importantly - get the same results outside of the training centre. Edited because I wanted to find the original poster of this.. I've also personally trained a large number of dogs to not pull on the lead...but the question is Haven, can the owners? When you hand the dog back to the owners, what are the results? After all, you're training the handlers, not the dogs. Mel.

Definitely true, and I always put out the caution about letting dogs run to the end of the lead on the halter- that is a big no-no. As for dogs leaping in the air, that's more of a handler issue, we can teach handlers about the safe use of them and the do's and dont's. A huge problem is that these can be bought over the net, or from pet shops etc, where there is no advice on how to fit it and cautions about the product, this is a major issue IMO. We can't just rely on buyers to actually read the directions thoroughly and take it all in. Certainly head halters don't work for all dogs, and some learn how to pull on the halter too...which is the same for any product out there- not one fits all. Again though, I contrast with rewards for the dog taking notice of the correction of the halter....if the average Joe Citizen were to put it on with no contrast of positive or negative then I'm sure the dog will habituate and the halter loses it's effect. Certainly true of any equipment- not to pick apart your post kelpie-i, but I guess I would make the same strong statements about check/correction chains. Mel.

Following on from the check chain thread in General, which is in danger of being hijacked about Head Halter discussion...I thought I'd add my two cents worth...and encourage some healthy discussion about their use. The Halter can be used to teach the dog something- to walk nicely without pulling. It should (as all training collars) be seen as a means to an end. If the halter is used with a double ended lead, one end clipped to the flat collar, the other to the halter, then it can be slowly phased out thus enabling a return to a flat collar permanently. As Dog Trainers, with experience training all sorts of dogs of different breeds, and most likely having multiple dogs ourselves, it's quite easy for us to say 'just teach your dog to heel' unfortunately I see many of my clients for the first time with Adult dogs who have been pulling badly since day dot...the behaviour is well advanced + the owner wants a solution NOW!! Halters provide a short term solution to many owners who have stopped walking their dogs because they just can't, reasons such as: RSI of the arms/shoulders; dog too strong for owner so out of control or a danger to other dogs due to that behaviour, or just plain handler frustration- the last point should never be underestimated when working with clients. Whilst this seems like a bandaid and a quick fix, I'm sure most trainers would agree that next to recalls, heeling or walking nicely is one of the hardest things to achieve. I think you can easily alienate clients by playing down how easy it is to teach their dogs to walk nicely when they have often come to you *for that very reason- they don't know how to retrain it!!* Also- if a halter provides enough of a fix that: 1. The owner will feel happy that the pulling has stopped. 2. The owner will start walking the dog again- bingo! That dogs' quality of life just increased ten-fold. 3. The owner feels reassured that they have full control over the dog when walking. Then hey! :rolleyes: I'm all for fitting one...explain how they can wean it off, but it can give the owner valuable, frustration reduced time to reteach their dog how to walk nicely. Also the *infin8* halter has just been released (to trainers only) by Blackdog Wear, it is a remake of the orginial, which is now a Blackdog Training Collar, with a figure of eight under and over strap simulating the strap of the halter but without the tight pulling under the chin, also it will be easier IMHO to phase out the nosepiece and go back to martingale collar only. Discussion welcome....as well as any Trainers or interested persons are most welcome to come to PM me if they'd like to meet up and work with some dogs on halters, or have halters fitted to their dogs. Cheers, Mel.

Questions about food brands tend to open a can of worms My Feloe don't stress too much about it... If you can afford to feed duck I would go for it my food choices are based on what the dog does well on, as well as research...as most people do. My senior dogs do excellently well on Hills Senior, and my Staffy has bad skin so she is on a Hills Prescription diet with low mollecular proteins and does great on that. My Toller pup didn't do as well as I'd like on the Hills puppy, so I decided to try something else. Cheers, Mel.

Fantastic idea for 'in-rehabilitation' dogs -where one wrong encounter with a dog attached to a handler not thinking- can set them back for weeks in their confidence building training.

The EP duck is alot more expensive than the natural down here in Melbourne- well from what I have seen anyway. I did the same thing - switched my Toller pup over to the Adult @ about 5mths, he eats the Adult Natural and does very well on it. Yes the power has to much protein and should only be fed to working dogs or dogs who need to put on weight...not a puppy IMO. Cheers, Mel.

Optimum is in the same quality range as Supercoat, if not a little better. Mel.

Hi Aly, my staffy is very allergic too...I tried her on the fish and oatmeal, and she did ok on it...took a couple of weeks for her skin to settle down, but I feel she does a bit better on z/d so am keeping her on that for now. I haven't tried the duck and oatmeal though I must say. Mel.

Does your dog have allergies Aly? i seem to remember a thread about that a while ago.... The best Eagle pack varieties are probably holistic fish and oatmeal, or duck and potato/oatmeal. The fish one in particular has lots of omega oils. Cheers, Mel.

I have changed one of my dogs over to Eagle Pack from another super premium brand, and have found he does very well on it. You will find there's a fair few people on here feeding Eagle Pack who really like it. Do a search...there was a long thread on it a couple of months back Cheers, Mel.

Advocate covers Fleas, heartworm and intestinal worms except Hydatid Tapeworm, which you could give a separate tablet for. Made by Bayer who also do Advantage and Advantix. Mel.

I actually wash one of my dogs at the one in Ferntree Gully, as he sheds alot, and I like the blow dry and the extraction fan above each bath (although they look as though they're hardly ever cleaned (the fans) ). I also buy Eagle Pack from there. It's a very busy place on a weekend and sometimes there is a short wait until a wash bay becomes available. The only things I would change is the hoses, the water pressure is to hard, the actual rose or head needs to be wider I think, as it's hard to wet the dog right down due to the high water force that is concentrated out of a small opening, so it tends to rebound a bit and you end up getting just as wet as the dog! Also it's like a hose trigger so you end up with an aching hand after a while. Oh and the drainage isn't great as they come out with wet paws still! If the figures were good and I was looking for a business I would certainly consider it, it may be almost in Upper Gully, but it's very popular, I hydrobath all my dogs, the Staffy is the smallest and is too big for the trough, and it kills my back leaning over the bath! Mel.

Depending on when the ratsak was eaten, the dog will have about 2 days of Vitamin K stores in it's body, so the Vet may say come in tomorrow or something to do a clotting time test and start on some artificial Vitamin K. Mel.

There is catscan and MRI available here in Melbourne now. Mel.

Well that's not a bad idea Erny...perhaps we should vote on a topic each week, say a particular behaviour problem, or a 'how would you train this' type of question and have a yak about it...?? Would probably make the training forum a bit more interesting...and if we could have a set of rules such as no flaming, no flaming of training methods, and a keep it sweet principle...all us trainers from different backgrounds could share some theories. Although as you already know- my background is not that far from yours. I just sidetracked somewhat. Mel.

LOL....you guys need to move this to PM's...getting a bit personal.... I have a feeling if we put you all in the same room..no-one would be able to get a word in edgeways! Mel.

How interesting that this thread started off somewhere....and ended with the inner workings of ADT, NDTF and 4paws....??? Just riveting reading for an outsider.... Mel.

Think they moved.... there's a pet dog activity club where they used to be in Lilydale I believe...but my details are sketchy and few. Mel.

It's not the fact that it was a flank spey, many Vets still do flank speys, it is all about which method they trained in. If a Vet is much more skillful at flanks, then I would want them to do a flank on one of my animals rather than request a midline....once they get skillful in a method it's hard to change over. Mel.