moosmum

I will be sure to keep a close eye on my dogs too,so far no signs of them touching them thankfuly! Luckily our tree is only small and easily harvested.Now I'm aware of it I can avoid the problems too with the netting later down the track. Thanks for the answers. Has any one heard of anything similar with walnuts?

Theres some weird and scarey people out there! Glad you are all ok. Fran,you must still be shaken. You did well to keep your wits about you too! At least you can feel you are well looked out for.Good boy Atlas!

I have a personal protection breed,both pure and X breeds. I would have loved to stick with the pure breed,but was told 15 years ago by my breed club that what I wanted in a dog could not no longer be had here in Australia. :D Very upsetting as these qualities had been very much a part of the breed description.My crosses used a breed introduced in earlier lines of the original breed,and seem to work very well. There are some wonderful breeders here working hard to bring back these qualities and I am behind them 100%. (And a HUGE thankyou to them! ) but wish all breeders could join these efforts or I'm afraid this breed will be lost to us here. I am speaking only of my chosen breed here,different circumstances affect different breeds. There was talk earlier in this thread comparing dogs to certain makes of cars...All very well,but if I want a Lotus,a Datsun with a Lotus body kit is NOT the same! Any working abilities will only remain reliably strong in a breed while their worth is valued by breeders and sought out in breeding stock before suitability for the show ring comes into it. If a breeds description includes certain abilities and personality traits,to me these should be a 1st focus if the breed is not to become irrelevant. Any responsible dog owner should be doing their research for suitability before they get a dog any way,so how is changing the breed to suit todays market doing anyone favours? As people said earlier,if the temperament and requirements for a certain breed don't suit,there are plenty of other breeds that may suit better. In my case anyway,a cross has worked well in an area out side of hunting or working live stock.Its just a shame it was needed to get what I wanted.

Sorry guys, not trying to hijack this thread but i hadn't heard that macadamia nuts were toxic to dogs. Is this true of the whole nut or just shell/pulp? We also have a macadamia tree and tho' I've not seen the dogs eat the nuts,one of our dogs loves the walnuts and is always finding them,cracking them and eating the flesh.She has taught the others to do this too,tho' she is the only one so keen on them. Are walnuts safe? We have not had any bad effects so far and she eats a lot when they fall.

Congratatulations Sexy Rexy! He IS a beautiful boy even at 10. So lucky that you found each other too,that terrific bond is beyond life and one of the best experiences you can ask for in your own isn't it? Hes gorgeous.

Ellz, you seem to have got quite upset that my comments reflected your own,tho' not worded as well perhaps. And thats why I did NOT say they must,only that they MAY,if they choose, make that offer, if it can be assumed etc. etc. I made it quite clear I was no expert and willing to stand corrected,but if you just want to jump on me I can handle that.

I don't know much about the law, but from a laymans view point only,this is how I see it. A lot will depend on how much you paid for the pup. If you are expecting a lot of guarantees expect your pup to cost a lot more.Those costs incurred by the breeder will be passed on. With even the best of dogs health wise,no one can guarantee every pup will be free of any health or other issues. Such a breeder MAY offer to replace the pup,for one that better suits your needs if it can be assumed the damage did not occur while in your care. But also : Did you explain to the breeder you were after a pup for show? Did you take their advise on what pup to would best suit your goals? Did you ask about any health or soundness issues? Did you ask what ,if any guarantees were given? Its your dealings with the breeder and any verbal or written contract that should be questioned before liability can be shown. but thats just how I see it.

Hi Shoemonster and thankyou very much for that! I certainly have a lot of choice now after checking the sites you gave. Between that and viewing clips from you folks posted here I can make a great start. So much to learn but watching the clips is inspiring and helps to see whats meant to happen.So yeah,the D.V.Ds will be the go.

Hi Guys, I've been following this thread with a lot of interest.I have never trained in drive before and my 3yo dobe 1/8th rottiy girl sounds like a perfect candidate fort this type of training.She has a very extreme prey drive and this causes her to become very easily distracted with my old training methods.She has got much better as she has grown up,but no where near what I believe her potential could be. My problem is we are fairly isolated and I can't get to "classes"of any sort nor afford the correspondence classes at this time.We will be re-locating hopefully next year and badly want to do some professional training then. Links to other sites can be awkward too,as we are on solar power and satelite broadband,both very unreliable for long times spent on the p.c.and just too much time. I am not confident I have the ideas right. ie:I assume you build the drive with the toys,then take it away and return it only when the dog has focused her attention on you and your 1st simple so as not to fail command,then build up to slowly to what you want?) Anyway,without an experienced person to make corrections as needed,I am worried I may make some bad mistakes that may create serious problems.She is very FAST and agile. She is great with our animals,kids etc. Very protective,but so prey driven its a pain.She found a rat trapped in the wall 4 days ago and was desperate to get it,chewing and clawing at the wood.We ended up taking a piece off the door frame and I managed to loop the tail of the rat to where she could grab it.The space was to small for the rat to get out,but she got it out anyway and we had no peace till she did. So,if anyone can recommend a good D.V.D or books to get me started I would realy appreciate it. Thanks for starting this thread and to all who have posted here,I don't mean to hijack.

Hi Guys, I've been following this thread with a lot of interest.I have never trained in drive before and my 3yo dobe 1/8th rottiy girl sounds like a perfect candidate fort this type of training.She has a very extreme prey drive and this causes her to become very easily distracted with my old training methods.She has got much better as she has grown up,but no where near what I believe her potential could be. My problem is we are fairly isolated and I can't get to "classes"of any sort nor afford the correspondence classes at this time.We will be re-locating hopefully next year and badly want to do some professional training then. Links to other sites can be awkward too,as we are on solar power and satelite broadband,both very unreliable for long times spent on the p.c.and just too much time. I am not confident I have the ideas right. ie:I assume you build the drive with the toys,then take it away and return it only when the dog has focused her attention on you and your 1st simple so as not to fail command,then build up to slowly to what you want?) Anyway,without an experienced person to make corrections as needed,I am worried I may make some bad mistakes that may create serious problems.She is very FAST and agile. She is great with our animals,kids etc. Very protective,but so prey driven its a pain.She found a rat trapped in the wall 4 days ago and was desperate to get it,chewing and clawing at the wood.We ended up taking a piece off the door frame and I managed to loop the tail of the rat to where she could grab it.The space was to small for the rat to get out,but she got it out anyway and we had no peace till she did. So,if anyone can recommend a good D.V.D or books to get me started I would realy appreciate it. Thanks for starting this thread and to all who have posted here,I don't mean to hijack.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with that last statement. The R.S.P.C.A is the only organisation with enough clout seen to be working to improve things and actively working for animal welfare on a government level.The govt. is only too happy to listen to them first and last as it saves them having to do too much work in an area most have little understanding of. I still believe education should come before any further legislation is considered. This won't happen unless people get off their butts and lobby for it,preferably with R.S.P.C.As co-operation. I think R.S.P.C.A may well join in such action if people can offer constructive input and feed back on why legislation should be a last resort and how education could best be acheived (through schools) Any alternative views to the R.S.P.C.As will need to be very well organised and vocal to be heard at all,but such an alternative could well work for every one. So DON"T leave it up to the R.S.P.C.A

If your shed is very well sealed with doors shut and has a concrete floor a flea bomb in there should do. When we moved here the fleas were so bad stepping into the shed would COVER your legs with fleas in seconds.It was a dirt floor and we tried lots of things including spraying it with Malawash. The only product that worked was one called Pestine (not sure of the spelling,so long ago) from the stock and station agents. Its a powder that we spread all over the dirt floor. It took a while as it does not seem to work on all stages of a fleas life cycle,but it did clear them in the end.

Moosmum, curious as to how you've tested the dogs to demonstrate that they will 'prove' themselves? what situations would you class the dog as proving themselves? As I mentioned earlier in the thread,the dogs have not been tested in any proffesional sense and I would love the chance to see how far they would go.(in a controlled situation of course) The bitch we used to get our strain has only shown mild aggression at the farm on one occasion with a visitor yelling at his children.He stayed with us 3 days altogether with no further incidents,and all she did was to growl softly as she approached him.Stopped as soon as he stopped yelling. She was given to my son as a 17 yo. and he takes her every where with him.He is now 22.She is generaly very placid and easy going,but boys that age will muck around,he has been with her late at night as pubs are emptying and at parties etc.always on a lead.Any one who has lunged at my son,she lunges right back,growling.Put herself between you and any possible aggressor. Another time when visiting a friend after a late night the boys sat in the lounge to wait for the friend to get up,not realising there was a another boy asleep in a pile of clothes.He sat up suddenly,with the same result.She managed to leap on him since she had no lead indoors,but just snarled and calmed as soon as my son called her. She has done her warning snarl again when my kids were in an argument with a flat mate who would not stop whatever it was he was doing.After several times being told to "stop it!" my daughter repeated it in an angry voice and the dog again aproached him and snarled. One of the pups left with the flat mate also defended my son on a visit back.He noticed the dogs has spilled their water and went to re-fill,pushing a Pit bull aside which promptly latched on to his hand.The young dog went the P.B imediately,after the flat mates had compained it would not defend itself from the P.B before that.It will now. You would have to read back through this thread,(see Jacquis posts.Her dog is not yet a year old)but there are other examples and not all from myself. Basicaly,they are very gentle good natured dogs in most situations,very loyal and affectionate.they seem learn what the rules are for their families and expect every one to follow them,treating their "pack" as a co-operative unit with us the leaders. Anything unusual and they let us know. Vistors are welcome,providing they are escorted into the front gate by a family member. Another dog; We had an engagement party for another son in town.Lots of visitors staying with us.One the dog was very familiar with wanted to come home early with his kids to put them to bed.I said we may have to come too as I was not sure he would be let in.He said he was sure it would be o.k. As soon as the dog heard the kids she would settle. That exactly what happened,but a second wave of visitors the dog did not know had more trouble.She let them in,after being told it was O.K and to go to bed,but we heard she growled and grumbled the whole time till we got home as if she was not sure he should be letting anyone else in with out us there. They may not be what a proffesional would class a P.P dog,but they are all we ask and rarely need to be confined,so available should they be needed. We have never encouraged agression in them,but nor have we disciplined them since we can understand each time why they have reacted as they have. 2nd generation have shown their mothers traits of being very affectionate and trainable with their owners,to different degrees.Will often place themselves between any perceived /possible threat and their owners. My own girl is very much like her mother,but much sharper.Very quick and very high prey drive.On the farm she has had little chance to show what she might do.I did encourage her once only to show more aggression.Only time I've ever done that.A fellow who rang about pups sounded very sus.He wanted to take a pup home on spec.When I said not on,he asked to look anyway. I just wanted my girl to show he would not be able to get into the yard or at the pups when we were away.For the 1st time ever she did not settle when I let the bloke into the yard.She allowed it when I told her to, but I had to tie her up because every time the guy moved she would start up again.Turns out the guy wanted a vicious dog any way.We won't let pups go to anyone wanting that,only lifetime partners.I hated the way he handled the pup he held. She did similar once when my O.H was involved in a argument just out side our yard.I had to put her on a tyre to be sure she did not go through the fence as the raised voices set her off.She stayed nearby though and did not relax her guard till the others left an hour later. The one time she was exposed to small children for a weekend I thought she may need to be restrained just for her high energy in case she knocked the kids over.She controlled herself very well and did not do her usual 100 ks an hour the whole time the kids were here . They are least a very least a strong visual and vocal deterant.They are very affectionate,and try to sit on your lap and will press their heads into you for cuddles.Giant mink stoles draped around your shoulders. PERCYK: My collie would protect,but not sure what sort of collie/X he was.Tri coloured,bigger than a border but more solid than a rough.

Hi Diablo, Thanks for clearing that up. As far as I knew no one had set out to breed P.P dogs suited to a more general environment in australia. We did,after owning the dog mentioned in the earlier post.We tried breed clubs and were told we would not get what we were after. He was a generaly non con frontational dog,but demonstrated many times his willingness to take on what he judged a real and serious threat. As you can imagine,such dogs ARE rare and when found are usualy very much loved and not available. We were even more determined after a very nasty situation in which I was also let down badly.Luckily the police were already chasing the bloke involved so the dog was not needed.He failed miserably. After many years and set backs ie; suitable dog but wont breed, we finaly found a bitch who fits all our criteria and she HAS proven herself many times over.Since she was given to my son,she was bred to the most suitable male we had found to date for our own dogs since retaining these qualities is very important to us. We now have a strain that is showing great promise.(Read earlier posts from both myself and Jacqui) How far we will be able to go with this is doubtfull as finding suitable,responsible and reasonably experienced homes has been hard.Finding dogs to breed to this 2nd generation if that time comes will be harder but I know that while I have these dogs,we will NOT be is a similar situation in our own home again. I admitt these dogs have not been tested in a situation where they will have to take a beating etc,but their demeanor when in protective mode does not encourage anyone to try their luck,nor have the dogs gone too far when a snarl in the face will do and they have quickly settled when asked.

Furthermore to what Kristina has mentioned, people will tell us about their own dog or a dog they know/knew supposed to be a terrific protection dog that will step up to the plate in defence if a threat arises and in the mean time, possess all the magical traits of a therapy dog from a childrens hospital, loves everyone, welcomes strangers in and plays with all the neighbourhood kids. What a super dog that we would all love to own, but the truth is, these dogs rarely exist if at all. ************************************************************ ********************* ADDED: I resent your implication that I am either out right lying,or deluding myself as I am sure do many others who have owned such dogs.They are clearly increasingly rare in a society for which dogs are becoming irrelelevent.The true working breeds are increasingly being bred for only their specialised fields with different criteria used to assess their suitability rather than over-all intelligence as it relates to a broad adaptability in a human society. The fact that there are so many such stories,many well documented strongly indicates the exsistence of such dogs. In earlier years when dogs were much more a welcome part of our society and more truely companions these stories were very common.More so amoung working breeds where intelligence and independent judgment is valued.Most dogs today are given little chance to show any real adaptability and it remains undeveloped in most. No one is claiming their dogs are faultless or perfect.Just giving an indication of their versatility.I am happy to list my dogs faults too. ************************************************************ *********************** Dogs with the fighting courage that will defend and bite for real are not easy dogs to handle and takes experience to train and mould them to behave around strangers and in a public place. It takes time and consistant training to create a true protection dog which is not an easy process to attain. There are no untrained natural protectors that possess the qualities that some people lead us to believe. The love everyone friendly happy pet will run away in the crunch, and the natural protector untrained will be locked away not trusting what and when he may consider to be a threat and react unpredictably. ************************************************************ *********************** Added: While I do agree with the sentiments of the above statement in general,how can you say there are "NO untrained natural protectors that that possess the qualities some people would have us believe." That is a very broad statement. What qualities do you doubt they may have? What is your definition of a natural protector? I don't promote the idea of my dogs as happy love every one pets.They are companions expected to behave in a variety of situations.Their feature is that they love my company and our familys enough to behave in order to get it most often,but they also learn there are rules outsiders are expected to adhere to.The pack is their security,they know their place in it like to keep it that way. I totaly agree that an untrained dog (no matter what his "purpose") is not going to have the reliability to do his job any where near as effectivly as a dog with the needed instincts trained for his job.However a natural and clearly demonstrated instinct gives a good indication that a dog may try to the best of his abilities when called upon.How well he is able to do this is obviously going to depend on how well prepared he is in his understanding of what is required,and what is realy happening around him and his confidence in that situation. Apart from people working in security or related fields,most people don't seriously expect they will need the level of protection you are talking about.A dog that gets riled with torment or punishment is clearly undesirable in a family situation or in public.Nor should such a dog be there with out a well trained and concientious handler. A reasonably courageous and serious looking attempt should do the job in most situations. ************************************************************ ********************** There may be these magical super dogs that you hear of, but I am yet to ever see or find one in 27 years of owning and training GSD's. I am sorry that you believe you have never encountered such a dog.It is an experience to be cherished.I have encountered several in my 40 years working with dogs though only one could be classed as truely out standing.(untill recently).Magical super dog? Your words,not mine. I do think though that such dogs may not be easily detected or recognised in by the same criteria used to assess a dog purely for P.P work alone.His priorities and drives must be different,and they often will not work as well for a handler out side their pack,even resenting them.Adaptable,reasoning intelligence and loyalty to a specific person/group of people with an ability to "read" people seems a common thread. I had a Doberman who would run and hide at the sight of a snake. When out walking with 3 dogs,1 shied away and yelped on stumbling across a snake.The dobe ran and hid.Another grabbed it halfway along its body and the snake coiled round,biting him on the shoulder. The Dobe came back out from hiding,pulled the snake off,then ran and hid again.She overcame her fears enough to be do the job.Her loyalty over came other considerations. Presenting her with that threat but no real reason to take it on did not show what she was capable of.

Totaly agree. My first dog that got me into P.P dogs was a collie cross.He went every where with my family,adopted his own cat,went in parades for the local R.S.P.C.A and was known all over town (In those days things were more relaxed.He used to treat the Dog pound van as his taxi home.They would pick him up where there was a bitch in season,open the door as say "Time to go home Chimo" and he would hop in for a lift home. He tuned up at my old school when I had switched to a new one.my friends piled their bags at the back of the room and he "hid" behind them the whole day from class to class. A real life Lassie! We took him camping at our old farm house,a group of 7 between 7 and 17 yrs.and a little brother.Two of the girls lived just up the road and their mum and big sister thought it would be fun to scare us in the night. The older girl sneaked up to the house and climbed on the roof,running back and forth. the house was full of screeming kids.I tried to get out to see who it was,but even knowing it was likely a joker did not make me brave enough to go through the door with foot steps above my head. I looked for the dog,thinking "where is he when you need him." He was running around the house about 50 yards away where he could see the culprit. I went back in to see the girl enter the house from another door,laughing at how she had us all screaming and turned around just in time to see Chimo fly in the 2nd door and literaly caught him by the collar in mid air as he flew for her throat. Luckily he calmed imediatly when he realised we were all now laughing but if I had not been vigilant it could have been very nasty. I had this dog from age 11 till 27 and he taught me a lot. I still cry over his loss and I bet there are a lot of people in the that town who still remember him.You could write a book on him.I used to tell people I could get him to do anything they asked within 10 minutes. But you need to know your dog and protect him from mistakes,so it goes both ways.

Thanks Kavik, That counts me out then but I can still have fun training on my own.Would have been nice to have that expert help though. More questions if anyone can help: My son is doing security training with the goal of k9 later and possibly training our own dogs eventualy. How does he go about finding suitably qualified training for that? Is it going to be terribly expensive to get that training?

Does a dog have to be a particular breed or even pure bred to do schutzhund? And where can you do it here?

Hi Jacqui! Yes, we intended on keeping all the pups the full 8 weeks,but by 6 weeks they were so clearly needing more stimulus and activley trying to bond with anyone( 10 kids yelling"Pick me! Pick Me!). They NEEDED to be starting their training while they were so receptive.They had a huge play area but could not run free to chase the chickens or get trampled by horses and mum no longer feeding them.Even lots of handling couldn't keep up with their development.(edited to clarify:pups did not go at 6 weeks,they needed it tho' and those still here at 10 weeks were desperately trying to bond with anyone new.Sad to see and I think idealy,in the right placement with the right people,they should start training earlier for a P.P home) It seems to me the combination that makes a good P.P dog is very high intelligence,"loyalty" and confidence. The hard part is finding people with the same qualities towards their dog because I get upset when I hear of one thats been re-homed.Have been lucky there though,with better luck 2nd time for those few. His whole worlds been turned upside down. Once you have had that raport with a dog and appreciated it nothing else will do,but its like you have taken responsiblity for an alien intelligence. I guess you have at that. It up to you to see it has the skills to share your life and feels secure 'cos its the only life it will know. In return,he knows no one else understands him like his owners and thats worth protecting. And if I am anthropmorph-thingy it works for me.

Wow your dog (or I should say dogs) seem so great!! May I ask what breed they are? (GSD?) LOL The proven girl is 1/4 rotty,3/4 Dobe.She is not very big as far as security dogs go.A VERY affectionate dog .Loves to sit on your lap. She was bred to my daughters big pure dobe male. Some of the pups were bigger than both and some very beautiful!The biggest was at least 32 inches at the shoulder and was raised in a daycare centre...also loves kids and cats. I kept a bitch and she is the 2nd dog I think worth testing.Just as affectionate as her mum and likes laps.thats how I chose her. All pups we have kept in contact with have shown her great instincts to protect and extra affectionate too. So they are dobe. basicaly,with 1/8th rotty and I love them. They are generaly much bigger and less extreme looking than the pure dobes ie: not the big chests out front and more substance.Not reliable as to looks or size though. We still have 1 pure dobe girl.She was the one who was supposed to breed with the male as we had such a hard time finding her and did not want to loose the qualities she had.Never would breed.Thinks shes a human and we joke thats why she would not accept "A DOG!?! " She is also very protective and a terrific family dog. We chased down a male from her lines finaly.Her old breeder who was now out of breeding due to health put us on to a mate who had a litter.He said "you might not want this lot though,the fellows used a 1/4 Rotty over his bitch" So now we have dobes that aren't quite dobes but we are VERY happy with them.

Wish I had found this topic earlier! I have 4 dogs chosen for protective instincts,all have been farm raised and good with cats and other animals and are terrific family pets.two I would love to have tested. One has been in situations where she has been needed and stepped up beautifully to definitly protect (yes protect,not just react) and is NOT high drive.She has relaxed again imediately when called and generaly acts the perfect family pet and adores kids and cats.She is a strong willed dominant dog and it would be interesting to see just how far she would go as she has only ever needed to show she was more than willing to take on a threat,not carry it through. The only time she has shown she can be more in a normal family situation was when we had a visitor she was wary of for his height and green dreadlocks visiting the home.She took our word that he was welcome untill he started yelling at his kids.She just gave a soft growl and the visitor stopped yelling and just said "I've been told". Am I right in thinking its very hard for those training in P.P to find suitable dogs out side of a very few proven lines here in australia? The other has not been in a situation where she has "proven' herself,but is looking like she would enjoy the chance and is very quick to leap up barking and growling if anyone suprises her/us. We often have to say to her"Its just me"as she is very quick and alert .All will welcome visitors in a very friendly manner when we let them in the gate. My daughters male will also stop and stare,refusing to move on when my daughter walks him if anyone starts calling out obscenities or lurking,following her etc.(she is a very beautiful girl and does get that!) Great topic since I love the relationship working with these dogs entails and plan to do more with them. I will be eagerly waiting the results. the other 2 are also quite protective,but for different reasons would not pass the tests devised. ie:1 scared of gun shots. The other 2 I believe would aquit themselves very well even if they did not pass the full test. Incidentaly,we have raised 3 kids,many other animals and had lots of visitors,parties etc over the years without incident.Our dogs are well trained and only confined at night or when we are away. Though my son did bite the dog once.