moosmum

all dog breeders? even the puppy farmers? so in your opinion all breeders are important and all make their contribution. I will make it easier for you to answer and only ask one question. do you really include all dog breeders in your above statement What you want is to make me judge and cast blame on other dog breeders. You want to make me say I think some breeder is a bad person. Just the idea that I wil not do this seems to really upset you. I am not going to speak about other breeders in meaningless negative general terms. This is where we are different and what the topic is all about. I actually thank you for your participation as I think this has driven home the problem very well. And again, you're okay with being lumped in with the puppyfarmer who breeds a bitch every season in deplorable conditions and then throws her away? It's amazing that this is okay with you, that you're unwilling to judge such a person because it's meaningless and negative and general. Amazing. No one is saying they want to be "stand with" or be "lumped with" bad or unethical practice.They are hoping that good practice can be universaly sought by various groups in the ways that suit them and work for them.That they can clearly see problems within their own groups and work to clean them up.Take personal responsibility for seeing their own group is beyond reproach before pointing the finger at some one else. The above example may not be a "puppy farm",but it is certainly my idea of a BYBer.Are they unethical? Should we be pushing for laws to make it impossible for them to breed dogs at all because their ideals are not ours? Should THEY be forced to stand with the puppy farmers in their corner? There are no clear definitions of Registered,Ethical breeders,BYBers or puppy farmers yet. You can criticise all you want and no doubt find justification with generalizations.Just don't be suprised that they do the same with their criticism of the pedigree show breeders.

There's nothing in there about the intent of the rant article. You may be misreading the intent since people can only go on what's written. My reading of it may be wrong but so may yours. The intent as you call it is where it should be in the first few lines, at least that was how I was taught, Here is it Breeder-bashing isn't a new concept. However, with our rights to breed dogs under constant attack from the animal rights terrorists, led by none other than The Humane Society of The United States (which is in no way, shape or form a "real humane society", but rather an extreme animal rights organization), one would think that dog breeders could find some common ground, stick together, and dispense with the superiority complexes. No such luck. That means, it is about her frustration with the way breeders go about bashing each other, only feeding people like you who have a lot of complaits about purebred dog breeders. Hope that helps. No, because she doesn't specify the type of breeder, whether registered, puppyfarmer or BYB. Do you intend to stand shoulder to shoulder with the two latter or indeed, unethical registered breeders? Like it or not,they are all breeders and maybe there just might be some common ground. How can the author presume to draw clear lines between them when the collective Dol has never been able to? Why would she leave out half the equation from her critism? Should it apply only to you?

I wouldn't dream of it. I confine my remarks to breeders in this country and for them, not testing for known inheritable conditions is irresponsible IMO. In Victoria, its also illegal. People like the Inuit allow nature to cull their litters and don't breed what cannot perform a necessary function. Outside of the world of working dogs, things are different. Yes,but some still try to apply blanket logic over all such groups.In smaller pockets,dogs are still evolving to working and other stardards within australia,and may one day be recognised and bred to a show standard.Much more often in less developed contries. And I agree on health testing,but you are leveling your values at "Known" Heritable diseases relevent to specific groups.Its their responsibility to address this where it applies,or accept the consequences.If this group directly affects you or is within "your" breed then yep,thats you and you are right to push for responsible action. Why make it law? Instead correct it from within, without outside interference.Taking responsability to your own interests.

The article could have been better written,but it seems some are deliberatly misreading the sentiments behind it which are I.M.O quite valid. Some of the present arguments are only high lighting that there are many different groups breeding dogs with their own ultimate goals and priorities.Whats needed and works for one is not what is universaly needed. Take responsibility for problems with in your own area of expertise so fingers can't be pointed. If problems are rife and come to public attention,be sure your own group can at least say "we have a plan to overcome this",or "this is not a problem for us because..." Let people hold responsiblitiy for their own messes with out dragging every one else down. Saying all dogs should be health tested regardless,be shown,live in such and such conditions,have so many litters,be raised in in this way forgets the diverse world we have.There are species of dogs still evolving for different purposes and environments.Most unregistered,just as pure "Pedigree" dogs originated. This ongoing process is needed for the viability of dogs as a species. Of course welfare is important,and there are laws suposedly to address matters of cruelty that could be better enforced,and education for the majority who simply don't have a clue. But try telling the Eskimos that they are not doing it right when their pups are whelped in the snow,never shown or health tested and cross bred with whatever looks good to the owners or wins the right against the pack.When the bitch is bred for her 4th generation cross to a wolf and has proven her worth and her health in trying conditions. It may be an extreme example,but realy just one of the broadest.

I did not mean for that to be the sole indicator of a good working/tough Dobermann. I will from now on How very strange that my "pathetic" show dogs do it and the working ones dont. I wonder why. I would love for ONE puppy buyer to come to me and say - I want to compete in something with the dog, Im yet to find one like that...... everyone wants a pet, not interested in any dog sports AT ALL. This is a real problem these days for Dobe breeders.I believe the only answer is to actively seek out such homes,or do it your self if possible. A long,slow process but needed if the dobe of old has any chance of coming back to its former glory. Imports can make a huge difference,but my understanding is that there are few over seas,even of old lines actualy working in P.P and living as true companions,unconfined but relying on training and stability instead. Videos and titles are great,but can can still be very misleading when you have very definite ideas of what you want and can't afford mistakes. If a dog is gaining titles due a high prey drive complementing more standardised competion,IMO its no real indication of "Old style " working ability so lines used need to be very carefully considered. I came across a pup that I thought perfect for security. 2 security guards looking for pups were convinced by their trainers not to take her. This pup was a big girl,afraid of nothing, very dominant and lots of fight drive.She took on dominant pups twice her size till they would avoid a confrontation with her.She seemed very independent untill she was rolled on her back and held there till she stopped struggling and only then was she interested in following people. Her eventual owner told me she had the 2 samoyds dominated by 3 months of age and that her fearlessness was a real worry as she ingnored all warnings by other dogs or people. She got a good,responsible home as a companion/P.P dog,where training is taken seriously,but it seems such a waste of potential where her strengths won't be seen and recognised. Its a catch 22 atm.but I have seen signs of this changing with a more pro-active approach by breeders.

I would be completing a temperament evaluation on the dog as I do on any dog before conducting any form of protection training or assessment to test the dogs suitability for this style of work. I then like to complete a stake out test on the dog, I will trigger different drives in the dog and assess the dogs ability to switch between drives and assess its recovery time to different levels of stimulation. This sounds fairly easy but it does not take much to ruin a dog, I recommend you have K9 Pro assess the dog for its working potential. A lot of people have a friend or inexperienced trainer agitate the dog without knowing which drive the dog is working in. They falsely believe because the dog is displaying a aggressive response it has the right temperament for protection work. ETA: Moosmum how old is the dog in question, I am assuming it is an older dog and not a puppy? The dogs are 8,4 and 3 but its more a hypothetical question anyway.It took me 6 years to find dogs I was happy with for my needs and I''m very confident in them. I don't and won't "mess" with them,they are companions 1st and its not needed for my confidence in them. As a layman,with out knowing all the correct terminology, I have always seen dobes as more a P.P dog rather than strictly security and believe you want different drives in a dog that can be a constant companion on farms,around kids and in situations a strictly security dog will never be in. Far less prey drive than security people seem to be after for a start. A much more easy to manage dog than some security people seem to prefer,but still a dog needing plenty of mental stimulation. IMHO those trying to bring back working abilities in Dobes would be better served to concentrate on the P.P side.With that goal acheived, it would follow that many of the pups would turn out to be more suited to a security environment over time? Security personel, those after P.P and sporting dogs are discouraged from dobermanns and this must make it difficult to place good dogs where they can prove themselves,yet most pet homes woud be totaly wrong for those dogs. Also harder for a good breeding program to work.

Jeff, Just curious... Given that so few serious trainers are willing to take on Dobes these days,(and thats definitely the case)how would you judge a dobes suitability or potential for working when its been raised in a pet/companion home? What would you be looking for?

I wait in vain beside a phone that never rings.. unless i go some place and call myself. But nobody answeres

Lou is a spider stomper.She is a mimic though,so has lots of very useful little tricks.She is getting on now,but used to always bark if we were out in the paddock when the phone rang and if we were too slow would try to pick it up herself. After years of complaining about the men folk leaving dirty socks lying around,Lou solved the problem by putting them out side when ever she finds them. She would herd the littlies under the car when the big dogs did zoomies.Helped me "weed" the garden(came along behind pulling every thing I "missed") She likes to join in any thing I do and mimic all sorts of behaviour,so thats some times helpful,some times not! Pids is a protector,he watches over any smaller animals or baby animals and keeps the rowdier ones away with a growl and puts himself between.He is also the bug alert dog and points them out for me to put out side.If Lou looks longingly at whatever bed hes on,he will go find another,and sits with her when there are storms. Pids is much like Lou.Always watching and picking up new things to suprise us with.

Legislation seeks to replace the the basic concepts of good animal husbandry,and can only fail. Unwritten rules are far more likely to be adhered to if the reasons for them are understood. Humanity is still very interdependent with animals and domestic animals provide a missing link with the natural world in a cosmopolitan society. Education is needed. Legislation assumes that people choose to fail when that is rarely true.Anyone with an interest in this thread,might want to look at the "in the news"section (Greens Pet Crackdown-media release) and follow the links to see the results that have been acheived in Calgary,Canada with a different approach. Steve, Sorry I couldn't be of more help with your other enterprises,but I will keep plugging away her on DOL as long as I see people applauding legislation.

There is no good reason why Australian perceptions could not change re: pet ownership with education,rather than the usual knee jerk reaction of legislation. I also grew up in a country with similar attitudes to Finland,and when my family migrated here there were dogs every where! I thought I was in heaven. As the Aussie culture has "matured" tho',dogs have been left out in the cold so to speak.I believe much could and would change with education that I think is badly needed in our schools on "animal studies" with a bias towards companion animals.So many city folks these days have little or no idea of the animals society has always depended on in one way or another,and that have helped humanity to develop.It is an unhealthy ideal for many reasons. Legislation that pushes animals further into the background of our conciousness and out of sight only adds to the problem. These countries with with such good results see dogs as dogs,yes,but not as acessories.Getting a dog is seen as adding a (doggy) member to the family and its natural that such a big decision should be well thought out and considered.

Touch and massage are being used a lot in work with horses these days too.Lots of "Horse whisperers" are using such methods to beginn work.

This legislation,in its entirety,does nothing less than create perfect conditions for a thriving black market in dogs. Some will be caught and the authorities can give themselves a pat on the back for exposing yet another puppy farmer.Never mind that they created the situation where they will thrive and for every one exposed there will 20 more. Those who buy their puppy interstate and try to keep it entire will not chip,not register,and of nescesity it will be kept undercover and underexposed to life. If that dog needs veterinary attention or gets lost.....The owners will do nothing for fear of prosecution. There will be many interstate or "illegal" dogs ending up in the pounds. There are many models for change around the world that are proven to work.(I think Calgary? in Canada has an excellent one) Most of these effective models work on the premise that people generaly,are not willfully ignorant or irresponsible,or useless at self determination.They work with the owners to find solutions and teach responsible care and ownership. Pretty weird when you think these laws are similar to those for gun ownership.

Orwelian and draconian. A criminal offence to breed a dog or sell it without being speyed.(with out relevent permmitts all 'round) So much for breeding as hobby.So much for a pensioners interest in retirement.So much for health testing at appropriate age for breeding or the ability to allow a dog to grow out before decisions are made as to its future. And all totaly un-needed or useless if microchipping and current cruelty laws were properly utilised.

Excellent post shortstep! Legislation such as this has far reaching consequences that are rarely clear at the time...very few people seem to have tha ability to look at a problem from all angles and from the view point of various groups,of which there are so many.Fewer have the ability to see consequences of legislation long down the track with various scenarios. These laws WILL severely restrict law abiding and responsible people and no one else.If these laws were brought in Australia wide,they could see the end of dog onership eventualy,with gene pools so severely compromised there is little use even trying. If all dogs sold were microchipped before leaving the breeders premises,transfered into the new owners name BY the breeder with both details permanantly recorded on that dogs records,these details would aid greatly in discovering whats realy going on with whom.If anyone is serious about getting to the bottom of the problem,this would be an invaluable tool for research all on its own. I personaly know of 1 young mother who has had 10 dogs pass through her hands in the last 3 years.She currently has the 11th,a chihuahua pup "for her daughter 'cos its cute watching her carry it around" (and stomp on it,squeeze it,pick it up by the legs and swing its head into the ground.)All have been bought/given away un- chipped. When they are a hassle or no good anymore she hands them into the pound or gets a relative to take then to the vets as strays. The 1st I knew of was a kelpie pup kept till her daughter was born,then handed in the pound along with its 4 pups.There was a 5 week old ACD kept for 1 day till it bit the baby.A staffy X sharpei lasted a little longer. How are these laws going to stop this repeat offender who has been responsible for so many of the dogs ending up in pounds,all on her own!?! If current laws re- chipping were enforced and utilised,it would soon come to the attention of authorities what this stupid girl is doing and it could be acted on. Enforce the exsisting laws!!! AND educate the general public as to their responsibilities.You can not constantly blame breeders for poor choices,ethics and lack of responsibility on the part of every day dog owners who incidentaly,are the ones most likely to become those new and inexerienced breeders shortstep has mentioned.Educate them. PUBLIC awareness needs to be addressed.The average person who choses to "get a dog" has no idea and the problem will get worse while responsible breeders are forced ever more behind the scenes. Where a person advertises pups is not the problem either,its what happens after they have a response. What are the costs for lisences,inspections and policing to the law abiding person who breeds only 1 litter every few years before they can even contemplate it doing that? Why would the person breeding the occasional litter only because they believe in their dogs and what they have to offer and contribute, want to jump through all these hoops? Will the same sort of legislation be brought in to controll bad parents in the future? Legislation is not the answer. Can we please get back to idea of personal responsibility in society? Pups sold at markets etc,sure,a big problem.But why is a farmers B.C or kelpie any less likely to end up in the wrong home at a market?

Ms Le Couteur, I hope you are still following this thread,if so the thread"Saving Pets" further down in this news section,posted by Steve should be of geat interest. It seems that only 5% of dogs actualy ever need the services of a pound at any time in their lives. I would not be suprised if the owners of that 5% are not repeat offenders,based on experience. If exsisting laws were policed effectively with harsh penalties restricting ownership for repeat offenders,along with greater education of the general public on responsible dog ownership and choices I believe outcomes would be far more effective in the long term. Ausatralia is rapidly becoming one of the most "Dog Unfriendly "nations of the world,with pet ownership becoming increasingly difficult and costly. Fewer families are choosing to own dogs because of this. Further legislation will result in even fewer owning pets,and fewer exposed to them.This in turn leads to less knowledge and experience and more mistakes by new owners through ignorance...leading to more legislation. I will be submitting a detailed response to your draft.

Even the OP story doesn't live up to your high standards of "protection" DerRottweiler. So if you have a story go ahead and share, honour us dog owners who have dogs that merely growl or bark at strangers around their homes...even little 3 kg dogs that clearly trigger your contempt I'd love to hear about SuperDog... I'm just being realistic. I have tissues for all concerned parties that would like to have a sook. I'm sure the owners of the small dogs DO care very much,as the degree of courage and "stress" is much greater. Why the need to deprive people of their pride in their dog? Most of us are well aware that we can't rely on an untrained dog,so when they rise to the occasion,its cause for pride. No one has ever pushed it with my current dogs.Those people have had their own nerve and courage tested and so far they have been the 1st the back down.It would take a madman to try and we haven't encountered any of them yet.Realisticaly,we don't expect to.Within reason,I would still be pretty confident in my dog,but if the idea is not to deliberately put them in that situation,its a pointless speculation. I am happy to enjoy the stories.

Our dogs have been selected for a protective instinct,so many examples from here.They take the job seriously but calmly. The dog that made me appreciate this quality was my 1st dog as a child.A collie cross I had for 18 years. He was 5 years old when I went "camping "with 6 other kids.5 girls and a little brother of 7 in an old run down rural home stead. About 9 pm we heard some one on the roof.They were running back and forth and tho' logic told me it was likely a practical joker,at 14 years I wasn't game to take that for fact. We had 7 kids screaming their lungs out and racing back back and forth inside.I tried to go out to see who it was but the foot steps above my head made afraid to go through the door. I looked for the dog and saw him running about 70 metres away and thought he was pretty useless way out there(but he could see) There were 2 doors into the house and as I came back from one door the culprit climbed down and came in the other door.The kids were all laughing in releif that it was just a big sister from a neighbouring property. Next thing I know my dog streaked into the room from the oposite door and leaped for the girls throat!I literaly grabbed him in mid air by the collar.As soon as he realsed the kids were laughing and in no danger he calmed to be patted. Being in the bush is no safer realy,we have had fugitives from the police try to seek refuge here,so appreciate dogs who can be relied on when needed yet safe to be unconfined in a family and farm situation. One of our dogs was laying on the hall floor with visiting children sprawled with her when their father came in and started yelling at them.The dog stood up and placed herself between father and children and just gave a low growl.He stopped yelling and just said to me "I've been told" The dog was fine with him for the rest of the 3 days they were here. My kids,being in town have many more incidents of being protected from both people and dogs.No ones been bitten.The intense look and huge growls have always been enough with people any way.Dogs have been bitten and a pup from the same lines grabbed a mans ankles when he tried to throw his neice,the dogs owner, in the pool and she screamed.She held on till he let the girl go.He had only scratches to show for it but this pup suprised me as she is so non confrontational and makes it clear she just wants to be friends and play with every one,especialy children.

Hasn't been getting any macadamia nuts? maybe a long shot but worth asking. My old girl acted much the same after eating just a couple,but the effects only lasted about 12 hours. good luck,hope the mystery is solved soon.

Hi Horty! Hi Kuga! Happy Happy Birthday Kuges. Horts,hes such a beautiful boy.Always love that middle pic. Have a great day.

Poodle mum, No forum rules have been broken here.I don't promote designer or cross breds in,just an opinion that perhaps ethics can exsist out side of pedigree circles. I fully and whole heartedly support ethical,registered breeders who are genuinly dedicated to their breeds and their improvement. But cross breeds WILL always exsist and dog breeds have been created through the ages to fill perceived needs of society.I think to halt this entirely now,never having any more new breeds could actualy be dangerous for the future of dogs. There are breeds being lost as gene pooles shrink. It seems the queen is a very knowledgeable and respected dog person and I don't think all that should be null and void because she chose to cross. Alexhegyesi, I agree that the majority of back yard breeders deserve the bad rep.The term seems a very loose one though,and open to interpretation.Some are labeled simply because they breed small scale and don't show dogs themselves,though they may be very dedicated to their breed. Times are changing though and people are becomming better educated,hopfully the general public are also capable of learning or we are in trouble. I think there is too much division in the dog world and legislators are taking advantage of these divisions.To me,it important that we realise any one is capable of being ethical,its a matter of encouraging that rather than attacking every one because the end result is looking pretty ugly for pet ownership,period.

But what about overpopulation? There are enough dogs dying in shelters, why add more to an overflowing population? And AFAIK, very few, if any, byb'ers will bother to health test their stock, nor desex them or offer a desexing contract. At the very least, *ethical* registered breeders breed to improve, encourage responsible dog ownership, have desexing plans and often don't breed all that frequently. I'd rather them adding to the canine population than a byb'er. Just playing Devil's Advocate.. Sure,but you say"Ethical" registered breeders.Not all are,yet all are taught here that BYB is THE dirty word. I still don't believe "backyard breeder " always means unethical. I know of people breeding to most of the criteria you mention and whos dogs are in high demand,to pre approved homes only,with waiting lists,because they breed seldom and only from healthy stock,for specific purposes. And yes,At the very least,they also breed to improve,encourage responsible dog ownership,don't breed very often at all and monitor health as an ongoing responsibility. I also know of more than several pedigree/show breeders who miss out on most of the criteria you mention. Its not right to tar every one with the same brush. Again,surely its about welfare.

I personaly don't have a problem with backyard breeders anyway... As long as they are well looked after,raised and homed,don't have any in bred health problems and aren't promoted as a "designer breed" whats the big deal? If some one sees qualities in these dogs that they want,fine. To have only pure bred,pedigree dogs in the world would lead to bigger problems that exsist now. Not every one wants to show,breed and keep dogs only in the manner proscribed by those dedicated to keeping their specific chosen breeds. Surely it realy comes down to welfare,and I don't believe back yard breeder always means unethical.

Mitas advise sounds good. This is an idea thats worked for me. To get such a nervous dog to acept the lead you can try attaching a short length of baleing twine ( enough to dangle and grab hold of,visible to her and felt by her) to the collar by doubling it.Poke one end through the collar ring and bring the rest of the twine through the loop thats come though. Do not tie it,you want it to come off fast,with minimal fiddling. Leave the ends of the baling twine untied,so that IF the twine is tangled on any thing and she panics or struggles,it will fray and not get stuck. Do this only under supervision for short periods till she is used to the dangling twine,and will come readily and confidently to you to have it removed. Make sure there is no where inaccessible she can hide from you too.ie: under the house,and try to avoid any other forseeable problems- you want to avoid panic,and you must be able to remove the twine if its needed. Once she is at that stage,I would grab the twine and give gentle pull and release tugs while encouraging her to come forward.Every step forward gets a reward,pat/treat and keep the lessons very short. 1st time release her from the lead at the 1st sign of forward movement.Same thing for the next couple of lessons and only increase the time on lead very gradualy.Stop before she gets too nervous and always remove the twine when finished. For her to be comfortable on lead and at your mercy she has to have confidence you will look after her,and her other problems will have to be addressed at the same time for that to be effective. I hope you can find a good person to help.

Mine too! I'm always amazed at what my dog seems to have picked up without me making any effort to teach him, and the way he's able to grasp ' situations' - so I'm really looking forward to this program. That kind of of dog changes the way you see things pretty fast. Problem is your ruined for any thing else and no one gets quite where you are coming from till they also meet your dog.I'm sure people think I make up stories some time,so I'm realy looking forward to this show. What a fascinating area of research that would be.