moosmum

Steamboat, Won't let me reply directly to your question re what breeds or crosses do I own. Its no secret,but not relevent to this thread.Working companions with no bull breed will do.Various breeds. Last Bull breed I had was 30 years ago.

I thought they might be,but wasn't sure. Thats cool! :)

And If you are seriously advocating the abolition of all non pedigree dogs,bear in mind you better be sure they can stand alone in future. You are losing a valuable part of the evolution of breeds that has acted as a base stock for as long as man has kept dogs.Its only in the last few hundred years that most pure breeds have been so actively isolated from their "feeder stock" and instead become the feeder stock. If you want to finaly sever all ties with a what man collectively acheived over thousands of years in favour of pedigree only,Then you better be damned sure you have it down perfectly because man will be very unforgiving of your mistakes.You will lose any means to measure your sucess or failure except against other increasingly narrowed lines of Pure breeds. You are only beginning to see the results of policies that focus on purity rather than qualities tested and proven in the field against against all commers,that came up trumps time and again and formed types that became breeds.Valued for their specific qualties. All done with out rocket science and pedigrees. The random dogs that might be in more than one pure breed because it hadsome thing unique and valuable in its time,taken for granted now. You can't know what you might lose.

So the government has definitely listened to the THAT'S NOT A PITBULL but a CROSSBREED cry and with the collection of data where Pitbull types have been falsely registered as crossbreeds.......what??, you can't understand why they are targeting crossbreeds??.........I surely can!! Do those worried about their dogs of unknown heritage really have as much to fear as the owners of the pure breeds most commonly nominated in the pit bull masquarade? The amstaff & staffy in particular & to a lesser extend the bull mastif, rhodesian ridgeback, the labrador etc. Some of these breeds have already been banned in various locations simply by the association. Do they even really care about the fate of the at risk pure breeds? I'm guessing the coroner of this thread recognised the M.O. of the owners of suspected restricted breeds & made her suggestion to place the onus of identification on the owner rather than them claiming "xbreed'' & challenging the authorities to prove otherwise. The easiest option is impose a blanket ban to cover all the possibilities. As has happened O/S If it came to pass here, your ANKC papers wouldn't be your saviour. 1) Obviously ATM they have more to fear. 2)Of course they care about the fate of at risk pedigrees.Its a point you have been ignoring till now.Seems you might be starting to see a little more than you were about why we don't see B.S.L as a solution.You haven't cared about anyone else,but now you bring up who cares about you. 3) I don't contest at all that a lot of people have been directly responsible for these measures being brought in.I do contest "The easiest option" as you put it,is the right one,or even the effective one. Oh dear, Stop being so ridiculous, & stop making such ridiculous assumptions. You lot really are one trick ponies. People make their own choices. Those that chose a dog of indeterminal heritage which bears a striking resemblance to a breed subject to a legislation that demands a strict criterior for ownership made their own choices. BSL has been in place for over a decade. So obviously they have made a conscience decision & chose the ''type'' they wanted. Hey, what do we care?......Let the Devil take tomorrow. Well hello It's tomorrow. So why should those who chose an ANKC registered pure breed have to pay the piper for a jig called by others? There are thousands more ANKC registered family pets than there are ANKC registered "show dogs" ANKC registered dog owners made their choice because they are diserning. They want to know what they will have when the cute wears off. They want to know what they are getting for their buck. Too smart by half. B.t.w. Being ANKC registered isn't some sort of ritualistic secret society that is the secretive realm only for the annointed. All ANKC registered breeders are required to register all surviving whelps. So wipe away the crocodile tears, take the responsibility for your actions & if you are unhappy with the outcomes, take aim at those who instigated the B.S.L Joe Public. If you want support, You should keep this in mind, You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. If I ever have a pittbull,I'm gonna call it steam roller. :laugh:

M-Sass, Though I can understand your logic and even to some degree sympathise,I think its simplistic. You are clearly of the opinion that there is no place or need any more for dogs of unrecognised breeding,and that pedigee dogs offer all that we can or should ever want. I disagree on both those points. I am not anti pure breed/pedigree.Its a wonderfull thing for a person who has a very specific understanding of what they want in a dog to be able to say "I can get it here",and know their choice is the right one that ticks all the boxes.Its healthy,bred for specific purpose and /or traits,has good conformation and is bred to be the very best it can be for those qualities. Used to be 1st point of call for those who wanted something realy special,and they would be right 95% of the time,or more. I would love that to be the case again.Its one of the reasons I come to this forum,because I AM passionate about pedigree dogs.I also happen to think the KCs seem to have it together more than any other group of dog enthusiasts I can think of. On the other hand,I don't think they are immune to the problems faced by any group of dog enthusiasts in trying to keep pace with the changes in society. I believe those problems have far more devastating effect on pedgree dogs,and far more rapid than most seem to believe. It bugs hell out of me to see pedigree dogs fall,and open discussion of how to reverse that,or the causes closed and denied. Pedigree breeders AS A GROUP seem to think they are issolated and persecuted and react by hitting back,but thats not just happening to pedigree dog enthusiasts.Dogs in society are under attack in all quarters.Yes,there are some areas in urgent need of reforms.Welfare issues are a major part of that,partly because society IS changing for the better and looking at the issues. I will even say that breeders of non pedigree dogs are IN GENERAL the worst offenders on most counts.But if no one is willing to addmitt the problems and and calmly look for solutions,picking on the worst offenders and eliminating them one by one is only going to work while theres another mob to pick on.

So the government has definitely listened to the THAT'S NOT A PITBULL but a CROSSBREED cry and with the collection of data where Pitbull types have been falsely registered as crossbreeds.......what??, you can't understand why they are targeting crossbreeds??.........I surely can!! Do those worried about their dogs of unknown heritage really have as much to fear as the owners of the pure breeds most commonly nominated in the pit bull masquarade? The amstaff & staffy in particular & to a lesser extend the bull mastif, rhodesian ridgeback, the labrador etc. Some of these breeds have already been banned in various locations simply by the association. Do they even really care about the fate of the at risk pure breeds? I'm guessing the coroner of this thread recognised the M.O. of the owners of suspected restricted breeds & made her suggestion to place the onus of identification on the owner rather than them claiming "xbreed'' & challenging the authorities to prove otherwise. The easiest option is impose a blanket ban to cover all the possibilities. As has happened O/S If it came to pass here, your ANKC papers wouldn't be your saviour. 1) Obviously ATM they have more to fear. 2)Of course they care about the fate of at risk pedigrees.Its a point you have been ignoring till now.Seems you might be starting to see a little more than you were about why we don't see B.S.L as a solution.You haven't cared about anyone else,but now you bring up who cares about you. 3) I don't contest at all that a lot of people have been directly responsible for these measures being brought in.I do contest "The easiest option" as you put it,is the right one,or even the effective one.

I'm not up to much of a response M-Sass,saying some good bys to an old friend . I do follow your reasoning and see where you are coming from now. I still can't see B.S.L as a real solution to dog attacks when other avenues could have benefits for most average dog owners(and dogs) in so many other areas as well.Not when I expect to see more dog attacks occuring even if B.S.L were sucessfull.I can't see the colateral damage as acceptable when people who have done nothing wrong get accidentaly caught up in this.I can't accept with out argument that a calm,stable dog with responsible owners who have put in the hard yards should be killed because he looks like there a possibility of bull breed in there some where when some gitt down the road who could ruin any dog and make it a danger has no such problem just because he chooses another.

And this is where you're going wrong. People aren't advocating the breeding of crossbreed dogs. People are saying that just because certain dogs happen to be a crossbreed, it doesn't mean it should be killed. When there are breed restrictions in place which has been the case for 20 odd years, if you happen to have a crossbreed dog who resembles a restricted breed and you can't prove it isn't, then you have a problem which has always been the case. If someone doesn't know what they are buying in terms of breed or know how a puppy may turn out physically as an adult, that's the chance you take with crossbreed dogs.........my point is, if don't want to be tangled up with BSL problems, don't buy dogs like that, plenty of BSL safe choices. But for many people being affected it wasn't the case when when they bought their dogs at all.Its not about choices,but removing choices. B.S.L doesn't accept responsible choices or responsible ownership,It reinforces the notion breeders (supply) are responsible for any mess and joe public shouldn't have to consider their choices or management. I don't disagree with every thing you say M-Sass,but I think you support B.S.L for all the wrong reasons and to me,it just high lights the dangers.

And this is where you're going wrong. People aren't advocating the breeding of crossbreed dogs. People are saying that just because certain dogs happen to be a crossbreed, it doesn't mean it should be killed. When there are breed restrictions in place which has been the case for 20 odd years, if you happen to have a crossbreed dog who resembles a restricted breed and you can't prove it isn't, then you have a problem which has always been the case. If someone doesn't know what they are buying in terms of breed or know how a puppy may turn out physically as an adult, that's the chance you take with crossbreed dogs.........my point is, if don't want to be tangled up with BSL problems, don't buy dogs like that, plenty of BSL safe choices. M-Sass,On one hand you argue in favour of B.S.L as a solution and tell us the parameters won't be changed or broadened.That people who do the right thing have nothing to fear as long as they are ANKC members,or only buy ANKC Reg. dogs. On the other hand,you show us just how easy it is to use that fear to broaden the parameters and include dogs that were never intended targets and have done nothing wrong.

Nice one. The ANKC has a published policy of being anti-BSL. That is a very cheap shot and an utterly undeserved one. Seems some folk can't tell friend from foe on this issue. I had intended the icons to convey sarcasm and it was not a cheap shot at ANKC,but trying to get the message through that they aren't doing ANKC any favours.

This is essentially a pure breed forum is it not??, personally I don't like crossbreed dogs to the point of owning one, even having a good crossbreed dog, how do you replicate the traits of unknown bloodlines and ancestory to produce good dogs into the future........personally I am not into throwing males and females together to produce lucky dips or neither do I support BYB practices I think it stinks, so perhaps the supporters of crossbreeds anti BSL crusaders which ultimately supports crossbreeds BYB's and breeds unrecognised in the pure breed registries are on the wrong forum??. Why on a pure breed forum are people trolls because they support only pure breed dogs............wouldn't it be common sense to expect on a pure breed forum to encounter people not supportive of crossbreeds and restricted breeds and their look a likes?? Because not everyone supports restricted breeds and crossbreeds doesn't make them trolls, but it's interesting to see debates unfold where the BSL supporters are lost for answers which to me is obvious as a loosing battle, a waste of time I think people need to accept the laws and get on with it and next time don't buy a dog who's breed cannot be proven to satisfy the requirements? As to your questions M-Sass,I do have some answers for you,but this is not the place.As you have pointed out,this is a pedigree forum and it would not be appropriate.But it should'nt be relevent to reducing dog attacks were that your primary goal.

You seem to have an awful lot to say about subjects you seem quite uninformed on yourself. Dingos are not wolves. You clearly have no idea about whether or not they can be managed as pets or not. You make sweeping generalisations about owners of bull breeds and suggest those dogs all bred specifically for dog fights. Maybe 200 years ago - but not today. Otherwise we'd all be able to hear dog fights from home. You also make a sweeping and ill informed generalisations about ANKC breeders. And also about the obligations of puppy sellers in the markets. Times are a changing - try to keep up. In QLD, NSW and Vic it is illegal to sell puppies without microchips http://www.dsdip.qld.gov.au/laws-and-codes/pet-owners.html I don't think I can point to a single post of yours in this thread where my understanding of what is fact in the world matches yours. And the things you've written about ANKC pure bred dogs specifically GSD and the breeders and the shows breach a number of forum rules and you wonder why people are getting upset with you. It's not your written expression - it's more how you think and what you think is true and you call us "stupid and ignorant" - get the plank out your own eye. Amen. BTW I have had a Dingo Hybrid,now I think on it,but it was pretty diluted by working kelpie and B.C so we realy never gave it much thought.Very dingo looking,but the "saddle" I have to say the same thing,she was a ...Dog. :) Curious Orrd that you have no problem with Dingos suitability for pets but disagree with their breeding and sale On what grounds then?

Seems these trolls like B.S.L not because they think its its the answer to dog attacks,but because its a step towards wiping out non ANKC papered dogs.Thats going to help the ANKC cause Kinda invalidates the pro B.S.L cause if its realy another thing entirely. :laugh: I'm sorry but where have I ever said that BSL is a good thing ? I certainly don't think for a second that BSL reduces bite stats. The methods of protest and defiance have all been met with deaf ears and BSL is not going away any time soon. Why would anyone want to wipe out non ANKC dogs. That statement is idiotic to say the least and the ANKC breeds have nothing to fear from BYBer's and mongrel bred dogs. There are not enough ANKC breeders now to meet the demand for puppies, so I'm not sure what purpose the elimination of other dogs would serve. But if telling people to buy a pup or dog from a registered breeder and make sure they have the ANKC papers and corresponding chip, earns me the tag of a troll, so be it ETA: if I did own a dog that could potentially be mistaken for a restricted breed or cross, I'd be collecting as much information as I could about my dog, it's parents, where it came from etc. I'd be proving parentage via DNA if possible, getting vet reports, behaviourist reports and anything else that might help my cause and lawyering up for the ride. Sorry Pav Lova if you took any part of my response to be aimed at you.It was not.Your posts have been considered and rational,definitely not troll-like. M-Sass has not and going by their posts in this thread and others,M-sass's agenda is not to reduce bite stats,but to eliminate non ANKC reg. dogs.I suspect "Steamboat" has a similar agenda.If thats the case,I don't think B.S.L should be a platform for their cause.I can't see ANKC being thrilled with the idea either. I think most B.S.L supporters genuinely want to reduce attacks,I just believe there are better ways that would have positive flow on effects rather than so many negatives for inocent people and their dogs. I don't have bull breeds or bull breed crosses,but I do have concerns that deed takes second place to breed.

So you are wanting innocent dogs to be killed? Some dog lover you are. They are dying now. Why break a dog lover's heart by allowing them to adopt a dog with a death sentence over its head. Campaign for breed assessment but in the meantime don't set families up for heartbreak. I agree.Heartbreaking to see good dogs given no chance,but could be doubly heart breaking other wise.

Seems these trolls like B.S.L not because they think its its the answer to dog attacks,but because its a step towards wiping out non ANKC papered dogs.Thats going to help the ANKC cause Kinda invalidates the pro B.S.L cause if its realy another thing entirely. :laugh:

Sigh......the further it goes, the sadder it gets. Where did I ever say I agreed with BSL? What I said was "Bad laws are still laws". You would do well to remember that. It's the centre point of the whole sh1t fight. I also said I agree with the coroners splendid idea that owners & not councils, should be responsible for the identification of their breed if it should become an issue. Like after it has chewed a kid to death for instance. That was it. the rest was your mob...up & running. Circling the wagons & chanting the same old same old from the song book of past anti BSL failed strategies. Now we are into "scar tissue of old panics"...what ever the hell that is supposed to mean....sounds like Julia sounding off at Tony again - reds under the beds?, silver bullets & werewolves? It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. Any wonder BSL is so firmly entrenched. Your style is not part of the solution, it's part of the problem. B.t.w, I didn't see YOUR measures to ensure public safety. Did I miss them? Yes,you did miss them....links hav been provided which you have obviously not bothered to read. No one here is saying you should break the law. The contentious issue as you yourself have said is putting onus on the owners of dogs to prove they are not pittbull or crosses of. Yes,people can choose to own dogs with no bull breed or ANKC registered bull breeds with papers,take precautions to keep dogs safe etc etc. But you refuse to answer How does a person with any cross breed,unpapered dog prove that it has no pittbull with such arbitrary criteria? I'm talking about whippet X lab,cattle dog X pointer,greyhound X whatever.None of which have any bull breed yet could produce results that once grown,might have a vague resemblence to a pit cross.If owner and dog have been doing every thing right by the book and the dog is "noticed" for ANY REASON ,even walking calmly on lead with its owner,its at risk.As pups those same dogs may have looked vastly different and people assume if they are doing the right things,they will will be safe.They are not. You are not trying to rationaly discuss anything.You telling us your argument for onus of proof being on the owners is it.You can't validate anything and won't look at alternate info.that validates any other option.Useless excersise .

Wow! Great links Mixeduppup and Asal! Re; The dingo link and controversy over best course of preservation: Seems to preserve pure strains,you would need breeders keeping them in relative captivity to preserve enough genetic diversity.Licenced and approved breeders for different strains of the species.Accept domestication,but with controls. Wild populations in preserved areas could be a separate issue,but there would be preserved stocks of relatively pure strains to fall back on or put in..I would hate to see the "Pure' strains bred for any purpose other than keeping the integrity of the species.Maybe a C.S.I R.O type program.

Great links,Thanks Espinay! I hadn't seen such research with animals,but have used Vitamin C to treat many of the conditions mentioned with excellent results. (feline influenza,pain relief,fertility in horses etc)after reading some earlier publications on research with humans. Nice to see back up evidence I can refer to.And broaden my use.

Some one in that thread should be able to explain why they use it for that purpose,but Vitamin C is known to promote healthy connective tissue.Maybe that includes tendon and cartilage? I find it a useful "boost" for repair and immunity.

Fine,You have a different opinion.You are the one accusing every one else of tunnel vision for not agreeing with you. :laugh: But you still haven't answered the question just how a person can prove their dog has no pittbull breeding.Dogs that come the attention of the authorities haven't always done so because they or their owners have done some thing wrong.Far from it. The coroners recommendation is a means of broadening B.S.L to include anything unknown.The way to prevent dog attacks? If in doubt,kill it. Not based on the behaviour of the dog,not based on the owners lack of responsibility or knowledge of specific dog management,but based purely on fear (of what might happen) and ignorance (of how to avoid it) I.M.O a witch hunt. Incidentaly,there are many many dogs with no bull breed whatsoever in their breeding that are at risk with this legislation based on looks and fear.Untill the real causes of dog attacks are addressed and tackled,the legislation only only increases the fear and hysteria to no real end.

This is pretty much how I see it too. I don't think anyone is seriously comparing wolves to dingos tho'. I mentioned my experience in response to to a comment that wolves can't be domesticated based on recent research.My point being that I didn't think the research was definitive because wolf populations have undergone changes.The traits that might make domestication possible have been 'culled" from populations,maybe just dormant and could recurr in the right situation. Doesn't mean I think we should try to domesticate them or breed wolf hybrids.It doesn't mean I think when it does happen,the results should be assumed to be "wrong" either. As for Dingos,No,I don't think my sister should have had a hybrid Dingo.She shouldn't have had a G.S.D at that time either,let alone a working line but thats pretty much what she had. If you asked me "Should anyone who wants one be able to have a dingo,I would have to say no.I don't think any one who wants one should have a working line G.S.D or Malinoise. There are similarities here to the thread on crating where I don't think judgement or blanket statements acheive anything.

Differences of opinion are fine.Labeling a whole village across the world "sick,sick, sick isn't all because a wolf doesn't behave as you are told they do,or as some hybrids even. Our village ended up with hybrid pups being born when a wolf wasn't afraid enough to avoid human habitation.I was the 1st to report a sighting that wasn't taken seriously because of my age.In broad daylight,across the road from our house.We watched each other for about 10 seconds before he melted into the trees.The "dog" who 1st got the blame for the litter MAY also have been a hybrid.He used to pull a sled in winter and a small wagon in summer,often with the neighbourhood kids.He lived with kids and wasn't a fearfull dog ,digging holes to hide.Nor were the pups. Things aren't always black and white. Kinda jealous of your childhood, it sounds like Balto. I have no complaints :D

Differences of opinion are fine.Labeling a whole village across the world "sick,sick, sick isn't all because a wolf doesn't behave as you are told they do,or as some hybrids even. Our village ended up with hybrid pups being born when a wolf wasn't afraid enough to avoid human habitation.I was the 1st to report a sighting that wasn't taken seriously because of my age.In broad daylight,across the road from our house.We watched each other for about 10 seconds before he melted into the trees.The "dog" who 1st got the blame for the litters MAY also have been a hybrid.He used to pull a sled in winter and a small wagon in summer,often with the neighbourhood kids.He lived with kids and wasn't a fearfull dog ,digging holes to hide.Nor were the pups. Things aren't always black and white. My sighting was confirmed as the wolf grew more confident and the pups had all been homed.The wolf was shot in our neighbours back yard a year later .The neighbour was the sherrif and had one of the pups.

...And your view narrow,to label those who have posted here Orrd,based on your own experience.

Agreed. I haven't seen anyone here promoting the idea of keeping wolves or wolf hybrids.Discussing results of experiments in domestication, or hybrids people have encountered is hardly the same thing.