moosmum

I kinda agree with Cruzzi, the OP asked for experiences and then mentioned how they would like to breed Staffords with no info about whether they show/compete etc etc. There are thousands of 'pet bred' Staffords in Australia, there is no need for more (especially the "rare" blue).....well bred ones however are very hard to find! If someone came on with the same after thought with breeding Tollers and no further information I would be questioning it as well :) While Cruzzi has gone about it the wrong way, I think it would be beneficial for the OP to explain what they have done in dogs, why they want to breed etc etc. I did similar to what Cruzzi has suggested doing, I bought 2 boys, showed and competed. Eventually got my bitch, did the same, done all health tests (about $1500-$2000)and hopefully will have my first litter this year (10 years after getting my first Toller!) I've always wanted to breed but knew learning what I wanted to breed would take time and finding and waiting for the right bitch as well took 7 years. Otherwise this topic has been a nice read, I do like reading about how others started in their chosen breeds :D No,The OP said they are very interested in the idea but are well aware its not something to jump into with out a lot of thought. They have asked how others have progressed to make that step with confidence. Where they are at now is no indication of where they might go as long they are keen to learn.

Maybe not as in depth as you are after,but " Inside Of A Dog" (Alexander Horowitz) is a good read, giving the reader insight to how a dog experiences the world.

I haven't found any big difference there,mostly seems to do with individual lines.The big difference I note is in capabilities at a younger age.A good working dog should to grow into their role easily and continue to improve while they have a suitable environment.

He will be prone to sun burn and possibly skin cancer from repeated burning. You can manage that with screens or U.V fly masks,which would also protect his eyes.The eyes too are prone to damage from the sun from their extreme lack of pigment.

Fartacus does cute. :D

Not sure how it works as I'm not a member,but isn't it a matter of putting in resolutions and amendments for vote before an annual General meeting to bring about change or action you want from your Canine Council ?

Mita, " The only group that has solid research behind them" Thats key, and another reason its in every ones interests to preserve them. But Pedigree breeders hold themselves aloof and isolated from every one who could learn and benefit from their knowledge. We see on DOL,people come here who are potential pedigree breeders,but because they don't come to you fully formed and educated,they are ridiculed and scorned for their mistakes and lack of knowledge. Not by every one,but when it happens all pedigree breeders are judged as elitist snobs etc.because it was publicly allowed on the forum. Driving people off won't teach them any more than that. Pedigree breeders need a more equall meeting ground with the general public.

You've said what You want,and can easily justify your rights to get it. But your asking so I think you suspect you should allow him one. His needs should get consideration too.You could make it a condition that you call after 6 months 2 X for an honest appraisal on his part of how well hes managing to meet the dogs needs.If its not working by HIS judgement you take the dog back. Being his 1st,he may have more invested in them emotionaly than you do.

Coccidiosis? (sp)

This. I no longer show my horses,but its in my own interest to show again when circumstances are better. The culture is different,with no pressure to show,but if people don't know my horses,no matter how good they are,they won't come looking here. (or dogs,I assume the principles are the same). We don't tell new comers to be wary of those who don't show.We advise that they take along an experienced person whos judgement they have confidence in. I can't say my horses are supreme champions.I have confidence in my ability to make my OWN judgements,for my own reasons.I KNOW that none of my horses will be out of place at the nationals,or royal shows.Though I have very small numbers bred or sold a year,I believe all that have gone to show homes have won at least one supreme champion. Otherwise,I would be unknown.I can still get by not showing myself while "Big names" are successfully showing with horses THEY bought in confidence. The only buyers though are going to be others with the same confidence in their own judgement. IMO There should be no stigma attached if you don't show.I've seen a few judgements that were very wrong,but for the most part a good judge can usually explain why they made a call,and often teach you something new .Its a big part of how I learned to judge for myself.Meeting and talking to others and learning to compare every thing to see where you yourself can improve.Play find the fault on the best. :D I still go as a spectator to shows(Dog shows too). You can often learn more ringside than in it anyway,(but kennel or stable)blindness is going to affect your choices if you can't make an effort to compare,honestly and harshly.Shows can teach how to do that,even if its just being a critic with other spectators. Show wins don't mean I should get some of that.Most often not.

Sounds like a plan! Would be nice though if it could be done in way to avoid buying into controversy with claims of being better(which would just increase the voices wanting to prove otherwise) Pointing out advantages in the interests of balance.? Don't think I've read anything like that in too long.Yep,would be nice!

Oh Reverend,you preach against hope.

I guess we are both confused then. :) Maybe some breed clubs,some times.But I'd hope then its temporary 'cos they can do some great things.

I don't see it so much as lumping registered breeders with puppy farmers.More lumping ALL breeders together. And sure,you will get Commercial interests dominating the the issues in their favour.We play right into their hands. As long as this is going to be about whos left standing we're all going down. Except commercial interests 'cos they will meet every requirement and come up trumps with no competition left. Surely its about finding the healthy balance? We have to be involved in that. and that's the biggest concern of all, whilst most ANKC registered breeders strive to produce happy, healthy and good examples of the breed, through careful choices and decision making, the average BYBer does none of the aforementioned It's an effing insult to have your pedigree dogs lumped in the same basket and condemned along with every mongrel bred dog that may or may not be your breed of choice. Can totaly agree. But if we take our marbles and go home,the game will go on with out us,and might not be there to come back to later.

I don't see it so much as lumping registered breeders with puppy farmers.More lumping ALL breeders together. And sure,you will get Commercial interests dominating the the issues in their favour.We play right into their hands. As long as this is going to be about whos left standing we're all going down. Except commercial interests 'cos they will meet every requirement and come up trumps with no competition left. Surely its about finding the healthy balance? We have to be involved in that.

To be honest,I think the problems are overwhelming people so they can't see the positives any more than they can see the solutions. To my eyes,its not pedigree breeders under attack,its the communities attitudes to dogs under attack.And thats a good sign.It means people ARE looking for a better way forward. Pedigree breeders are part of that community and so far the ONLY real critique has been PDE.Thats realy pretty mild. Yes,its being addressed,but at the same time theres a retreat from the general community by breeders who are scared to be noticed.Hence why the actions being taken aren't making news. If designer dogs can be shown to be suffering in a demonstrable way thru' being bred solely for their marketability,then they will get a lot of attention from the media too.And legislation that will affect us all,and in the end,just makes it harder for people to own or care for their dogs in the best way for their own personal situations. But people need a comparison and they aren't getting that unless they go looking for you.Most don't KNOW enough to do that. If we keep saying " WE are under attack,leave us alone,theres worse" and point the finger at some one else,all we are showing those people is what a bloody mess WE, the community are making. So 'round it goes. As a community,we know whats in front of us.That ain't pedigree dogs or their breeders values. Pedigree breeders appear to be holding themselves apart and immune from community concerns with defensiveness,and the push for ONLY pedigree breeds. Thats not offering solutions to community concerns.Offering yourselves as an alternative to community concern isn't a solution. All that would accomplish is being the sole target. We, as a community need to push values,not legislation and that can only benefit pedigree breeders.

Yes it is,because breed club members are ANKC members 1st.Maybe some exception to that rule,but not normaly. And that was the last try I had left in me for awhile.

Did I miss something? I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding? All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love. change the culture, save the breed. Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline. Can hope for a miricale of course. but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs. just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening This. Its realy hard to find the words to express what we are seeing. Asal is using her experience to try but its hard. They say you get the committee you ask for,but the rules set the culture for the members they want. Can you provide an example of these rules? O.K. I'm gonna try 1 more time. In the thread "Look what they've done to our dogs" theres a link to the Norwegian approach to health issues. There,they state that they prefer not to make more regulations because that drives more people away. When PDE comes out,you say "no! Not more community restriction! It'll drive people away." So you make more restrictions within. Instead of saying "Members shall strive to achieve this" You say "Members shall NOT do that" Its not about what you want to achieve,accomplish or value .You won't make positives out of negatives.Its about what you won't tolerate.That invites and promotes judgement.You introduce a mind set and a set mind isn't what you need. So,the easiest examples found on ANKC web page are in the code of Ethics as Asal says. Take this one.11.Breeding. A member shall breed primarily for the purpose of improving the quality and/or working ability of the breed in accordance with the breed standard.... Fine so far,But it goes on to say....and not specificaly for the pet or commercial market. Why was that needed? The above should have covered it nicely. You have introduced a judgement that pet and commercial markets are negative.No good. Not only that,but any one who makes a profit,or doesn't consistently produce at the very least, show contenders,might be unethical.So you also have uncertainty. The only rewards left for good breeders are trophies.Its not enough to have very happy pet buyers who will proudly tell others how good their pedigree dog is.Its no longer good enough to have sound healthy dogs with excellent conformation if they can't win a show. Winning is every thing.Mind set. Why shouldn't a breeder who is doing an out standing job be recognised for their time,effort and care by asking what the dog is worth from those who appreciate the quality? How else can they keep doing it unless money is no object? All for a line that wasn't needed. Every negative statement or ruling introduces a mind set thats going to influence the type of members you attract and how they treat each other and how they work. Common goals are great unifiers. Common "hatereds" can be too,but only while you have a common enemy.

Did I miss something? I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding? All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love. change the culture, save the breed. Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline. Can hope for a miricale of course. but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs. just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening This. Its realy hard to find the words to express what we are seeing. Asal is using her experience to try but its hard. They say you get the committee you ask for,but the rules set the culture for the members they want.

If they didn't believe pedigrees were THE only ethical and responsible choice then why would they be interested in being a member of a breed club? > Because they love the breed,and feel they have knowledge and skill to contribute to its future as a pedigree dog? Why would you want anyone who didnt think that being anywhere near something thats set up to protect that? > Because contact with their beliefs isn't going to take away purity of your breeds.They don't want to take anything away from pure breeds.They prefer to have them as to hold as the pinacle of good breeding. Why would they care what anyone else looking outside of their back yards think and you're talking about general attitudes to new breed development, cross breeding, closed stud books, etc which is a totally different issue to what the purpose of a breed club is. Why would a rugby player want to work to make an AFL club successful? > Maybe hes a sports lover who plays Rugby realy well and loves the game.But his son loves AFL so they agree theres room in the town for both games and they LIKE variety. why would the AFL club want them if they were only there to get everyone to play their game? >But hes not in AFL 'cos he wants to play Rugby.He wants to play AFL.He just doesn't want anyone telling him he can only play if he never again supports Rugby.He might tell you stick your game because its not realy about a good game any more,its about judgement and he won't support that culture and you've lost a great player who could have made your team a success. Oooops. Didn't do that well,but my answers are within your post Steve,with > in front.

Me either. I want my breed clubs to focus on the breed and nothing else. Not on all pure breeds, not on all dogs, just their own responsibilities, the breed community, the breed as a whole and any individual of the breed that needs help, breed health, history and expertise, a voice for the breed, a public face for the breed and an organiser of breed events. Done well, that is a great deal. Yep. So why does intolerance to anything else have to be made a condition of membership? Its been made a condition of membership that they don't tolerate diversity.Then you ask for that within the breed clubs.

Me either. I want my breed clubs to focus on the breed and nothing else. Not on all pure breeds, not on all dogs, just their own responsibilities, the breed community, the breed as a whole and any individual of the breed that needs help, breed health, history and expertise, a voice for the breed, a public face for the breed and an organiser of breed events. Done well, that is a great deal. If a breed club focuses on all breeds then what is the point of it being a breed club? Or are we not to have breeds? Is that what moosmum is saying? No. I'm not saying that pedigree breeders should be responsible for all dogs either,quite the opposite. I will try to find a better way to explain, Asals experiences are relevent,but P.C.time is limited ATM.

:laugh: Oh well,questions were asked and I stuck my neck out to try and give my answer. I'll leave it there.

Many of us can agree with every thing the breed clubs are trying to do and stand for and would happily work tirelessly for a breed,and promote pedigrees above all else.They certainly consider them equal,and mostly better. They just don't believe pedigrees are always THE only ethical,responsible choice.What will be the opposite reaction? Is the opposite reaction maybe whats causing some of those problems within? They believe from looking out side their out their own backyards that pedigrees can't be truely appreciated,or their qualities recognised by discarding every thing else out of hand before that half of the science is understood or even recognised, and that new breeds,created by communities for current needs are necessary for evolution of the partnership. They don't believe dog breeding is always better if its overseen by committes from the start,so that experimentation and individual choice is stiffled. That throwing away the root stock will ensure success,especialy considering the problems within that you mentioned.Or that pedigree dogs with ever decreasing gene pools are always going to be the likely source for finding any new qualities or traits to value. So it becomes a conscience decision and every one looses. If it about promoting pedigree dogs,We're all for it,but not if that means destroying every thing else and that seems to be whats asked. Its all or nothing and that vision isn't enough.

If you want more bums on seats for pedigree dogs you have have a higher ideal. There ARE too many dangerous,nuisance dogs.Too many unplanned or poor planned litters with no ready homes or not suitable to be homed,and homes that shouldn't even consider a dog. They don't come from backyard breeders OR pedigree breeders, or DD breeders,petshop or cross breeders. They come from a community ill prepared to make choices in the best interest of mans 1st true companion species,with the ideal of KEEPING them a true companion species. That higher ideal is very complimentary to pedigree breeders. I think you would find the biggest voices promoting cross breeding are commercial interests and their audience. Pure breeds,historicaly sell themselves,or wouldn't be here but theres more to that higher ideal than pedigrees.Pedigree alone doesn't allow for that ideal. While you deny that,you are not in a position to mentor or engage the community who so badly need it. Purebreeds still sell themselves and this isnt about higher ideals its about common ideals. It isnt about what is wrong with the community or where other dogs come from should or should not come from. They are whole other issues .This is about purebreds and pedigrees and dog shows and the need to realise the errors in limiting gene pools, and making it so difficult for new people to buy a purebred main register dog who may become passionate enough about the breed to have a go. Stop expecting so much from them - its not their job to take on the bloody ills of society and the wombats who want to breed cross bred or any other dog. Its not their job to educate people on responsible dog ownership or any other higher ideal .Its enough for them to worry about their own dogs, their own breeds and their own decisions. I don't see them as whole other issues. I see the same basic issues as tied to whats happening to the breed clubs. I don't expect its the KCs job to take on the ills of society. I do think they hold themselves apart and distinct in promoting pure breeds as the only responsible,ethical choice and that it alienates people who feel their choices are being eroded. I think that alienation helps to keep us all unbalanced,and less able to tackle the problems you mention because of it. I believe finding and working with the common ideals from the start would see more people gravitating back to the breed clubs. I agree pedigree dogs still do sell themselves.Clubs don't,and thats what people feel they are being pushed into,before they have a chance to know if membership is even going to provide what they personaly want from their association with dogs. Or maybe I've got this all wrong,but if you realy want to know what turns people away,its one answer. If Its all about pedigrees,and dog shows and the need to limit gene pools,or the dificulty buying a pure bred main registered,then some of us hope for more than membership allows.