moosmum

I guess we are both confused then. :) Maybe some breed clubs,some times.But I'd hope then its temporary 'cos they can do some great things.

I don't see it so much as lumping registered breeders with puppy farmers.More lumping ALL breeders together. And sure,you will get Commercial interests dominating the the issues in their favour.We play right into their hands. As long as this is going to be about whos left standing we're all going down. Except commercial interests 'cos they will meet every requirement and come up trumps with no competition left. Surely its about finding the healthy balance? We have to be involved in that. and that's the biggest concern of all, whilst most ANKC registered breeders strive to produce happy, healthy and good examples of the breed, through careful choices and decision making, the average BYBer does none of the aforementioned It's an effing insult to have your pedigree dogs lumped in the same basket and condemned along with every mongrel bred dog that may or may not be your breed of choice. Can totaly agree. But if we take our marbles and go home,the game will go on with out us,and might not be there to come back to later.

I don't see it so much as lumping registered breeders with puppy farmers.More lumping ALL breeders together. And sure,you will get Commercial interests dominating the the issues in their favour.We play right into their hands. As long as this is going to be about whos left standing we're all going down. Except commercial interests 'cos they will meet every requirement and come up trumps with no competition left. Surely its about finding the healthy balance? We have to be involved in that.

To be honest,I think the problems are overwhelming people so they can't see the positives any more than they can see the solutions. To my eyes,its not pedigree breeders under attack,its the communities attitudes to dogs under attack.And thats a good sign.It means people ARE looking for a better way forward. Pedigree breeders are part of that community and so far the ONLY real critique has been PDE.Thats realy pretty mild. Yes,its being addressed,but at the same time theres a retreat from the general community by breeders who are scared to be noticed.Hence why the actions being taken aren't making news. If designer dogs can be shown to be suffering in a demonstrable way thru' being bred solely for their marketability,then they will get a lot of attention from the media too.And legislation that will affect us all,and in the end,just makes it harder for people to own or care for their dogs in the best way for their own personal situations. But people need a comparison and they aren't getting that unless they go looking for you.Most don't KNOW enough to do that. If we keep saying " WE are under attack,leave us alone,theres worse" and point the finger at some one else,all we are showing those people is what a bloody mess WE, the community are making. So 'round it goes. As a community,we know whats in front of us.That ain't pedigree dogs or their breeders values. Pedigree breeders appear to be holding themselves apart and immune from community concerns with defensiveness,and the push for ONLY pedigree breeds. Thats not offering solutions to community concerns.Offering yourselves as an alternative to community concern isn't a solution. All that would accomplish is being the sole target. We, as a community need to push values,not legislation and that can only benefit pedigree breeders.

Yes it is,because breed club members are ANKC members 1st.Maybe some exception to that rule,but not normaly. And that was the last try I had left in me for awhile.

Did I miss something? I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding? All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love. change the culture, save the breed. Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline. Can hope for a miricale of course. but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs. just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening This. Its realy hard to find the words to express what we are seeing. Asal is using her experience to try but its hard. They say you get the committee you ask for,but the rules set the culture for the members they want. Can you provide an example of these rules? O.K. I'm gonna try 1 more time. In the thread "Look what they've done to our dogs" theres a link to the Norwegian approach to health issues. There,they state that they prefer not to make more regulations because that drives more people away. When PDE comes out,you say "no! Not more community restriction! It'll drive people away." So you make more restrictions within. Instead of saying "Members shall strive to achieve this" You say "Members shall NOT do that" Its not about what you want to achieve,accomplish or value .You won't make positives out of negatives.Its about what you won't tolerate.That invites and promotes judgement.You introduce a mind set and a set mind isn't what you need. So,the easiest examples found on ANKC web page are in the code of Ethics as Asal says. Take this one.11.Breeding. A member shall breed primarily for the purpose of improving the quality and/or working ability of the breed in accordance with the breed standard.... Fine so far,But it goes on to say....and not specificaly for the pet or commercial market. Why was that needed? The above should have covered it nicely. You have introduced a judgement that pet and commercial markets are negative.No good. Not only that,but any one who makes a profit,or doesn't consistently produce at the very least, show contenders,might be unethical.So you also have uncertainty. The only rewards left for good breeders are trophies.Its not enough to have very happy pet buyers who will proudly tell others how good their pedigree dog is.Its no longer good enough to have sound healthy dogs with excellent conformation if they can't win a show. Winning is every thing.Mind set. Why shouldn't a breeder who is doing an out standing job be recognised for their time,effort and care by asking what the dog is worth from those who appreciate the quality? How else can they keep doing it unless money is no object? All for a line that wasn't needed. Every negative statement or ruling introduces a mind set thats going to influence the type of members you attract and how they treat each other and how they work. Common goals are great unifiers. Common "hatereds" can be too,but only while you have a common enemy.

Did I miss something? I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding? All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love. change the culture, save the breed. Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline. Can hope for a miricale of course. but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs. just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening This. Its realy hard to find the words to express what we are seeing. Asal is using her experience to try but its hard. They say you get the committee you ask for,but the rules set the culture for the members they want.

If they didn't believe pedigrees were THE only ethical and responsible choice then why would they be interested in being a member of a breed club? > Because they love the breed,and feel they have knowledge and skill to contribute to its future as a pedigree dog? Why would you want anyone who didnt think that being anywhere near something thats set up to protect that? > Because contact with their beliefs isn't going to take away purity of your breeds.They don't want to take anything away from pure breeds.They prefer to have them as to hold as the pinacle of good breeding. Why would they care what anyone else looking outside of their back yards think and you're talking about general attitudes to new breed development, cross breeding, closed stud books, etc which is a totally different issue to what the purpose of a breed club is. Why would a rugby player want to work to make an AFL club successful? > Maybe hes a sports lover who plays Rugby realy well and loves the game.But his son loves AFL so they agree theres room in the town for both games and they LIKE variety. why would the AFL club want them if they were only there to get everyone to play their game? >But hes not in AFL 'cos he wants to play Rugby.He wants to play AFL.He just doesn't want anyone telling him he can only play if he never again supports Rugby.He might tell you stick your game because its not realy about a good game any more,its about judgement and he won't support that culture and you've lost a great player who could have made your team a success. Oooops. Didn't do that well,but my answers are within your post Steve,with > in front.

Me either. I want my breed clubs to focus on the breed and nothing else. Not on all pure breeds, not on all dogs, just their own responsibilities, the breed community, the breed as a whole and any individual of the breed that needs help, breed health, history and expertise, a voice for the breed, a public face for the breed and an organiser of breed events. Done well, that is a great deal. Yep. So why does intolerance to anything else have to be made a condition of membership? Its been made a condition of membership that they don't tolerate diversity.Then you ask for that within the breed clubs.

Me either. I want my breed clubs to focus on the breed and nothing else. Not on all pure breeds, not on all dogs, just their own responsibilities, the breed community, the breed as a whole and any individual of the breed that needs help, breed health, history and expertise, a voice for the breed, a public face for the breed and an organiser of breed events. Done well, that is a great deal. If a breed club focuses on all breeds then what is the point of it being a breed club? Or are we not to have breeds? Is that what moosmum is saying? No. I'm not saying that pedigree breeders should be responsible for all dogs either,quite the opposite. I will try to find a better way to explain, Asals experiences are relevent,but P.C.time is limited ATM.

:laugh: Oh well,questions were asked and I stuck my neck out to try and give my answer. I'll leave it there.

Many of us can agree with every thing the breed clubs are trying to do and stand for and would happily work tirelessly for a breed,and promote pedigrees above all else.They certainly consider them equal,and mostly better. They just don't believe pedigrees are always THE only ethical,responsible choice.What will be the opposite reaction? Is the opposite reaction maybe whats causing some of those problems within? They believe from looking out side their out their own backyards that pedigrees can't be truely appreciated,or their qualities recognised by discarding every thing else out of hand before that half of the science is understood or even recognised, and that new breeds,created by communities for current needs are necessary for evolution of the partnership. They don't believe dog breeding is always better if its overseen by committes from the start,so that experimentation and individual choice is stiffled. That throwing away the root stock will ensure success,especialy considering the problems within that you mentioned.Or that pedigree dogs with ever decreasing gene pools are always going to be the likely source for finding any new qualities or traits to value. So it becomes a conscience decision and every one looses. If it about promoting pedigree dogs,We're all for it,but not if that means destroying every thing else and that seems to be whats asked. Its all or nothing and that vision isn't enough.

If you want more bums on seats for pedigree dogs you have have a higher ideal. There ARE too many dangerous,nuisance dogs.Too many unplanned or poor planned litters with no ready homes or not suitable to be homed,and homes that shouldn't even consider a dog. They don't come from backyard breeders OR pedigree breeders, or DD breeders,petshop or cross breeders. They come from a community ill prepared to make choices in the best interest of mans 1st true companion species,with the ideal of KEEPING them a true companion species. That higher ideal is very complimentary to pedigree breeders. I think you would find the biggest voices promoting cross breeding are commercial interests and their audience. Pure breeds,historicaly sell themselves,or wouldn't be here but theres more to that higher ideal than pedigrees.Pedigree alone doesn't allow for that ideal. While you deny that,you are not in a position to mentor or engage the community who so badly need it. Purebreeds still sell themselves and this isnt about higher ideals its about common ideals. It isnt about what is wrong with the community or where other dogs come from should or should not come from. They are whole other issues .This is about purebreds and pedigrees and dog shows and the need to realise the errors in limiting gene pools, and making it so difficult for new people to buy a purebred main register dog who may become passionate enough about the breed to have a go. Stop expecting so much from them - its not their job to take on the bloody ills of society and the wombats who want to breed cross bred or any other dog. Its not their job to educate people on responsible dog ownership or any other higher ideal .Its enough for them to worry about their own dogs, their own breeds and their own decisions. I don't see them as whole other issues. I see the same basic issues as tied to whats happening to the breed clubs. I don't expect its the KCs job to take on the ills of society. I do think they hold themselves apart and distinct in promoting pure breeds as the only responsible,ethical choice and that it alienates people who feel their choices are being eroded. I think that alienation helps to keep us all unbalanced,and less able to tackle the problems you mention because of it. I believe finding and working with the common ideals from the start would see more people gravitating back to the breed clubs. I agree pedigree dogs still do sell themselves.Clubs don't,and thats what people feel they are being pushed into,before they have a chance to know if membership is even going to provide what they personaly want from their association with dogs. Or maybe I've got this all wrong,but if you realy want to know what turns people away,its one answer. If Its all about pedigrees,and dog shows and the need to limit gene pools,or the dificulty buying a pure bred main registered,then some of us hope for more than membership allows.

If you want more bums on seats for pedigree dogs you have have a higher ideal. There ARE too many dangerous,nuisance dogs.Too many unplanned or poor planned litters with no ready homes or not suitable to be homed,and homes that shouldn't even consider a dog. They don't come from backyard breeders OR pedigree breeders, or DD breeders,petshop or cross breeders. They come from a community ill prepared to make choices in the best interest of mans 1st true companion species,with the ideal of KEEPING them a true companion species. That higher ideal is very complimentary to pedigree breeders. I think you would find the biggest voices promoting cross breeding are commercial interests and their audience. Pure breeds,historicaly sell themselves,or wouldn't be here but theres more to that higher ideal than pedigrees.Pedigree alone doesn't allow for that ideal. While you deny that,you are not in a position to mentor or engage the community who so badly need it.

Agree. Look what we all have done. We can winge forever about what "they" have done to our dogs,but its "we" who keep doing it and will keep on doing it while its all we know.Its an age of specialisation, information bombardment,and little time.No wonder we all get side tracked into little cliques,and make mistakes because we can't see the bigger picture. I'd guess that when registries were formed there was a huge amount of variety even within the breeds,and the standards were written to provide a common goal,true to the breeds purpose and history. Showing and pedigrees proved to be an extemely efficient method of improvement.Visibly,the standards were reached long ago and its become a matter of degrees,or fashion in SOME cases.Ditto where a breeds original function has been lost. I doubt the founders of the breed clubs could have forseen how the world was going to change to lock us all into little cliques who only know our own speciality.The breed clubs didn't bring that about,and it didn't just happen to them. But blaming each other for problems keeps us there. We are never all going to have the same priorities if we focus on the finer details within our own area of expertise,or deny the validity of any other.

My brother in South Africa tells me SWF are called Poodles there.

Somehow,because Don Burke said the above, it has moved into a popular belief. Hybrid vigour occurs when one species is mated with another (lion x tiger etc). The info is on the net about breeding one dog breed to another, but if you check the proper scientific information, it is incorrect. If you cross a linebred dog with an outcross, you often get stunning pups, same if you cross one linebred example with another from a different line. Yep,I agree. Technicaly,they are not hybrids at all,or they would be sterile.But the "invigoration" happens.

I believe if KCs were to stop focusing on negatives and blame,they can win the support of the public.they are the only group with enough public profile,support and organisation left to take on the commercial breeders and animal rights groups. instead we allow them to paint us into a corner. But they need the public support. Then the problems can be tackled together,because the problems are universal.Pure breed dogs weren't the invention of the KCs,they were developed in communities,to meet those communities needs. The pedigrees came after Dogs were proved in the community.Locking them in as property of the KCs is never going to work. If KCS can win support to come out fighting we might be able to turn this around. As for fears cross breeds will some how take overcome the success of pedigree dogs? Its only in the public light that they can shine.Pedigree dogs are the safest of all! If society sees the value of keeping dogs a community rather than corporate interest,its the KCs who have the knowledge and history of how to breed with clear goals and success,and have to hand reliably breeding stock of known and measurable qualities. Those will always be essential to a community that can can value dogs into the future. Hybrid vigour can only occurr by breeding 2 pure breed dogs.anything after 1st cross is back to being a plain mongrel and relies on good,thoughtful breeding as much as any other other dog. There are more reasons for communities to values pedigree dogs than there are breeds by far. The focus shouldn't be on whos doing it right,just on making sure we all understand what WE need to do to stay true to our unique history and partnership with dogs,and helping others to understand that too. Or else it seems we will lose a part of our humanity to let dogs go.

But this is what I am getting at.There is a community problem and we can't face it as a community.If we refuse to own the problems its about WHO is wrong,not what is wrong. So every one tries to stay out of the firing line and NOT draw attention to themselves.Whos left to have a public profile? good question. barring a mirical I dont see a solution , they just wont work together, havent in 40 years, Ive known so many join work their butts off , become breed club secetaries,what ever, raise money for trophies, do months and years of work for the benefit of the breed and the club, then some one with goodness knows what agenda stabs them in the back and Im left with them sobbing wondering "what did I do wrong?" How do I know? because I was usually the one who either gave them a start with a m/r puppy and they wanted to show despite my warnings to enjoy their dog and forget the show scene. or got to know them as they searched for their pup. Usually I think, they have been winning a bit more than some can put up with, then knives start to slide out. the usual reason for making it too hot to handle. the backstabbing that goes on is incredible. Ive had many showi friends, but rarely showed, just hated the , o my darling friend one minute, then you know shes unethical u know. and thats just the tame stuff. Sadly have to take your hat off to the libbers, even if they are busy backstabbing each other, which i expect still goes on, human nature and club culture being what it is. At least they present a united front regardless. Shame isnt it, that the dog fraternity cant take a leaf from the same book. Theres also the mentality that says ANKC IS the dog fraternity.There would be better progress made if people can accept the dog fraternity should include anyone you hope will ever come to the KCs. Expecting them to come to YOU before they can be accepted just isolates you.Isolated,you have no public profile except what others choose to put forth.The experiences of those unaccepted isn't likely to be rosy and they will paint it any colour they see. That attitude also makes the KCs focus ever more narrow.The conformation shows are all they are left with,and any competition only amongst themselves. NO,not saying cross breeds should be shown.There are other forms of competition out side the show ring.But good breeding shouldn't be just about pedigrees and show wins.Joe sees a display dog.You want to talk pedigree,Tell him about history and he might start to get it.But there has to be the chance to KEEP making history outside the show ring. Association with cross breeds doesn't cause them.Not knowing pure breeds might.

But this is what I am getting at.There is a community problem and we can't face it as a community.If we refuse to own the problems its about WHO is wrong,not what is wrong. So every one tries to stay out of the firing line and NOT draw attention to themselves.Whos left to have a public profile?

And sometimes they see purebred dog breeders as having no right to question their fitness for puppy ownership, or they don't want to wait. So off to the Trading Post or Gumtree or the pet shop they go. Given that the existing number of ANKC breeders don't have any problem placing the pups they breed, what's the point in generating demand for pups that simply don't exist? Breeders aren't fading away because they can't sell their pups. Maybe we need to encourage those breeding responsibly to keep doing it before we ramp up demand. Imposing legislation that treats them identically to puppy farmers ain't the way to go from where I sit. replied to this last night and lost it but been thinking on it since.I'm not an optimistimist,but looking for solutions and causes,trying to see where we are headed and seeing only 2 possible out comes. 1) sees increasing legislation and restrictions ending with dog ownership going just where we don't want it.The way of every thing else these days.If theres profit in it,its a commodity to exploit.Legislate it into a trained,licensed, profession.Corner the market,franchise etc.An investment oportunity.Not far fetched at all when you look at what else has gone this way.ie child care. The divisions and misinformation in the dog world are pushing us closer to this. 2) Sees people claiming dogs as a community issue and responsibility.A common cause and interest.For that to ever happen,there needs to be a single body to speak for and regulate,educate and provide a meeting point and social oportunities for all the various groups with out pushing any 1 agenda.A sort of ombudsman to promote responsible dog ownership and practices,education,research,law etc. Maybe ANKC isn't the right choice for that job,Its too far from their purpose. But they would need to be a part of it and are ahead of most other groups.I could see a lot of benefits in it for them if they were a big part. For example,what if,through news letters,gatherings,education and peer pressure,a buyer was taught that being grilled by a seller is par for the course with ANY responsible,caring breeder? If ALL sources of dogs were going to be doing the same? As it stands,average Joe,who is most numerous,has no sense of belonging to any community and is powerless to influence direction apart from signing the latest poorly thought out petition.I think theres a huge opening there and would hope it doesn't come from a purely commercial interest. We need organisation and unity to promote best practice in all areas,and average Joe needs to be included.ATM,hes only aware of what any one interest group is pushing the loudest,and nothing about basic issues at all.Try to change that ATM and another group will only tell him different.

Thats scarey. So few of the general public are even aware of the huge variety of choice they have in pedigree dogs,and wouldn't have a clue what a wheaten or Kerry Blue is.I was rapt to see pics on DOL not long ago of a some ones Lakeland...I'd forgotten them,though they were a favourite when I was younger.Made my day :)

The ANKC has an associate register that pretty much does this for folk who want to do dog sports. Some breed clubs have fun days but it's a hell of a lot of work and generally restricted to pet owners of purebred dogs. I can understand why Maltese folk might not want to open the doors to crossbred owners. It's all those crossbred breeders and buyers that have pretty much led to the demise of the Maltese as a pet. Hard to put your heart into something like that. As a poodle owner I feel the same way about oodles. The breed I love has been exploited and abused to produce a pet that's often not much like a poodle at all. How does providing encouragement to oodle owners to show their dogs 'convert' them into becoming poodle owners? Half the reason these dogs sell is because their owners have bought into the hybrid vigour misinformation and the tripe about getting the best of more than one breed. By demonstrating to them 1st hand the predictability of what they could be getting,and learning of the care that goes into their breeding from people who are passionate about them.Showing faith in them and their ability to captivate others as much as yourselves.By having these people where you can reach them to present the alternative,and the ideal of breeding responsibly. There will always be some who will happily have or breed "mongrels",but I bet numbers would drop when they are reminded good breeders have goals other than sheer profit. A sense of belonging would promote community awarness and belonging in real issues.

ANKC breeds clubs are extremely unlikely to embrace cross breeds or their owners as members. Their general focus is on the breed survival and the show ring. Yes it is but unless they start looking at ways to increase interest in their registered pure bred dogs it won't be long before they don't have to worry about it at all. Especially in a breed like Maltese where there is actually massive popularity in the type of dog I just see a huge opportunity to run an associate membership where to join the dog must be chipped/desexed & council registered. Then have fun little 'shows' a couple of time a year along side regular shows where they can just have classes like best groomed, best child/dog, basic elimination obedience contest with sit, drop, stay where last dog standing wins, best trick etc.....all the while the pedigree breeders have a captive audience to show off their dogs too . If jo public felt like part of it I just about guarantee that the demand for ANKC purebred Maltese would increase. It won't happen overnight but neither will just pushing the same old barrow. What better way to fight fire with fire. Reel in all those owners with pet shop bought dogs and gently encourage them towards registered breeders. Oh well dreams are free! Sounds good but in reality the breed clubs are in existence to advise the ANKC about breed specific issues etc regarding registration and the standards of their breed and to deal with things associated with showing their breed. .The various state bodies have associate registers to enable dogs without pedigrees to participate but it would make a major change of culture for a bred club to accept cross bred dogs and their owners as members. Yeah I know. It just seems such a shame that with just a few hundred ANKC registered dogs annually that is a very small group to draw membership from, where in reality there are 10's of thousands of 'maltese type' owners out theer that would probably jump at the chance to feel included and venture out with their much loved dogs. I am by no means putting these ideas forward as promoting the cross breeds, quite the opposite. Reel them in to promote the pure breeds. I would love to hear of other innovative, fresh, inclusive ideas because with memberships, entries, clubs, registrations dwindling unless someone comes up with something they're doomed. Pushing the same old agenda is clearly not working for purebreed dogs everywhere. I'll make the analogy to what's happened with the sport of cricket. They took a look at the dwindling interest in a sport lacking relevance to todays faster pace here & now society and made changes that turned the sport on it's head, but also ensured enduring interest & popularity by making it more interesting & accessible. For what its worth Crickets,I agree with your idea whole heartedly. I think it would see a huge surge of interest in pedigree dogs and foster more responsible and informed attitudes in dog ownership/breeding.

Out of curiosity,wouldn't this be the way most ANKC breeds were 1st formed? The standard being the guide to strive towards,the pedigree a record of whats gone before.A tool to assist in the best decisions to achieve that standard. Hard to have purity before you have the breed and they all had to start some where. It all sounds pretty much usual practice for livestock registries.The goal there is not "Purity" for its own sake,but rather reliability of type that comes after consistent goals.A large gene pool assists to avoid problems.The pedigrees value is in the reading.What to avoid/what to bring in. I know of registries still open after more than 20 years and no pressure to close them yet. Seems to work anyway. Is there a written history of the KCs, or even in depth for specific breeds? I would be interested to read up on that if material is there.