moosmum

Breeders need to support other breeders. No environment is bad for dogs by itself. Its how we respond to the challenges that make the difference between good and bad. There will be times and conditions when a certain environment is the only practical option for a specific purpose or situation. But if all breeders become commercial enterprise, and we are collectively driving it in that direction, then we have let them become no more than accessories. They are loosing purpose, and value with it. Just as any biological identity does when it refuses to recognize the environment and its demands. Environments in them selves aren't good or bad. Its about how we respond to their challenges. Breeder support is needed. The demonization isn't just from A.R. And if commercial breeders can weather it, so can small scale breeders. But only if they can recognize and support each other and thats not happening. In or out of the K.Cs. Because everyone is more concerned with not supporting environments.

Sorry guys, ran out out of time to answer this bit. Once people see what they think is an easy profit to be made they will try to cash in on it. The more people pay for dogs, the more people will try to cash in to get a slice of the pie. The trick is to educate people about breeding. 1st, that actually is the part of 'education' the public is missing to make more informed choices. If you aren't familiar with any of the process or what goes into it to produce a quality product, how are you to understand if you are likely to be getting that from from the seller? If a mass produced puppy comes from a clean, state of the art kennels with lots of staff and conducts education on breeding practices, how is person who has no understanding of what goes into breeding to see anything wrong with that? 2nd, Its not so easy as it looks when you don't know, what you don't know. If people understand up front that breeding quality pups requires careful selection of parents for complementary traits, (And a working knowledge of what those are ) sound temperament, health testing where relevant, 'round the clock care , socialization, vaccinations, preparation for veterinary intervention, Knowledge of breech birth and possible complications .....It doesn't look so attractive. Fewer try, and fewer still a 2nd time. Because Its harder to get away with offering any less. So at the moment yes, a lot of people are just cashing in. But the reason they are able to do that is due to low expectations. Thats where demonstration comes into it. A demonstration of possibilities has to be given. Experienced, before it can be expected. Environment needs that. It doesn't recognize value till its been shown. It requires familiarity. So recognition is essential before its even possible to give value. Psychology has shown thats true of people too, in market research. Thats why I say the breeders environment is not a healthy one. There is too little support for quality breeders because there is too little experience of them, or what quality can be. People aren't familiar with them. BYBers can't be blamed for that either. If pedigree breeders were doing so much better at meeting demands, there would be higher expectations of them. The numbers of K.Cs members would not be in decline. ANKC breeders aren't supporting The practices that bring improved results for buyers. They support The K.C that believes those practices are inherent in the standards and limitations. They are clearly not. Or we wouldn't talk about ANKCs responsibility to 'police' its members. And what are those members accused of? Being nothing better than whats out side. Of bringing the 'outside' , in. And how to limit whats outside, so it cant' get in. Limiting themselves further in the process. Limiting what value gets out too, with limited pedigrees etc. If they were doing much better at meeting expectations, their environment would give them more space.The numbers of Pedigree dogs represented in the population would be much higher. As for them wanting it to be a breed or not... doesn't matter. Breeds came about because people recognized some thing, some traits, they wanted to work on as a breed, after the fact. The dogs were there, being bred for some purpose that people valued. They proved themselves to have value 1st. With recognition and familiarity as something worth a space dedicated to it. They served a purpose in their environment. If the only purpose being recognized is as accessories, thats the fault of breeders for not demonstrating other purpose.

@karen15 Yes the context of environment can be very confusing in all of this. I think Mingaling put it best- Every thing that is not the 'self' is environment. What makes that so confusing tho' is the subject you are referring to changes. What self or identity is being discussed in this instance? The environment of the K.Cs is humanity, but the environment of its members is only the K.C. The environment of dogs is humanity, but pedigrees is their registering body. Every thing beyond any identified subject is its environment- and its essential that it can recognize all parts it comes into regular contact with to respond effectively. The more it can recognize, the better it responds and more environment available to expand. Ie your body is the environment for your cells. They keep your body healthy by recognition of other cells, their states and conditions. So when some thing is wrong with human body/environment they recognize how to respond to correct it, and can attack viruses etc. or repell what doesn't belong. But even that is learned response through recognition. (This thing again!) So an Identity, of any type, is also an environment, of all it contains. To every cell or thing that enters your body, it behaves like an environment.It can only accept or reject. Attack, suppression, etc is an identities response to anything that does not belong in the body of its self identity, so even if its powerless to remove it, it can't thrive there. The K.Cs share their environment with Domestic dogs. Because thats what they are. But the only parts of that species the K.Cs can recognize are the pedigree ones. So a K.C environment tries to reject the conditions that support non Pedigree dogs and it doesn't work because over all pedigrees and other dogs depend on the same conditions to thrive. Like an over active immune system destroying its own body. An identity is an environment for all it contains, held together by common belief of 'self'. i think this is likely where a lot of the confusion comes from. I have always been able to jump from one environmental concept to another with no trouble. Theres a lot of that here.

They would not be accepting cross breds. Only recognizing them as dogs that may or may not have some thing to offer a breeder, or a person .Based on its own merits or lack of them, not by where it came from. As to what characteristics can be consistently applied to crossbreds- What ever characteristics a breeder has made the effort to find and develop.

Except a lack of support from their environment to do so. No. They don't. But if they want to succeed, and add value, they must find a way to prevent it being discredited by the part of their environment that does that. You say the K.Cs have had the job over seeing Pedigree dogs. I fully support that goal. But I am sorry. I can't support ANKC in that role as it stands in its present identity.. Its 'genetic blueprint' makes that task a physical impossibility while its programed to eliminate environment so that no value is recognized beyond its 'self'. You can call that an opinion if you like. But you risk a lot to assume it is when all evidence I have found supports that and you have not been able to provide any evidence to disprove it. I get that you don't like the evidence. That doesn't mean I do anymore. But your whole argument depends on a false belief that any value is in the environment. Its not. Thats a space you Occupy. It just IS. Any value is subjective. The environment or space only holds value to the subject by the potential it can realize there, through its own ability to respond to prevailing conditions. The K.Cs created conditions that Breeders could take advantage of to improve their responses to dogs and better support them.That created greater potential. The addition of the statement of non recognition removed it. By defining its response and conditions as an independent identity. Turning it inward towards a single space. No longer a response, its an environment, incapable of independent response and defined by what it holds. As a now self identified space, its only power to define its 'self' lies with what it will not hold. It can not hold 'other' conditions or spaces and still be self defining. Its only option is rejection of what it won't hold. Spaces or environments do not respond. They only accept or reject based on value offered. By giving space or refusing it.

LOL, One more to quit on a luckier number. @RuralPug I have nothing against the dog fancy. There is good reason to believe in the Pedigree system and the standards it represents. A belief in that is only misplaced when it is so strong that to follow it requires a declaration that nothing 'less' will be recognized.. That to accept the Pedigree system means rejection of all that surrounds it and all that lead up to it. Thats where the problems begin. It moves the practice beyond its science to blind faith. I don't give you the problems. I don't bring them up to accuse. I bring them up to show the the results of a flaw that make them predictable. There is a response available. But it must be invisible to faith because no one seems able to bring it into their focus. All they see is attack and accusation. All thats required is to change the mission statement from one that does not recognize 'cross breed' dogs, to read more like - " We do not accept into the pedigree system dogs that have have not been bred to our protocols for accepted breed standards, Though we insist that all dogs receive equal recognition of any value to their species and humanity without prejudice or censure." I don't claim all K.C problems would vanish. Certainly not overnight. But it would remove the barrier preventing the effectiveness of existing solutions, and open new directions to recognizing others. The K.C membership identity is fixed to a set response of rejection to over come environmental difficulties. But its only set with that declaration, that refuses to recognize diversity and puts all and any belief into fixed standards. One environment. With none permitted to leak out to embrace the species. Even though the standards would remain. Even though the K.C member identity would remain. And even though the purpose would be regained of improvement to the standard of Dogs- Overall. By encouraging people who cross breed to see to they too have some thing to gain from a pedigree system, and may still contribute to it, you gain diversity of membership and response. The benefits also flow out. An Identity ( even a K.C identity) is not set or fixed, while it has enough diversity to allow recognition of new response when its presented. Acceptance of those is still choice, but its not open without recognition. So the rest is up to the K.C.s

Believe it or not, I have been trying to show The K.Cs how to open a way over come many of the problems besetting them. by pointing out a single flaw and showing how it is affecting much of what is happening. it has cost me. Its unpopular. But I have kept trying because i happened to believe in the potential of pedigree dogs. I just spent several hours explaining clearly the physics behind this only to have it deleated before completion. It may have made what I have been trying to accomplish clear, at last. But I give up, as many more sensible have and are doing. I'm afraid the K.Cs realy are on their own. As they insist. Not much purpose in that for anyone but the K.Cs. I can't keep any belief in that.

You can pick an Identity. if its humanity -Human behavior is causing problems for humanity, holding it back, stifling growth and costing valuable/limited resources. We address those problems and find better ways as human beings with common belief for humanity. We work with what we have to make it some thing better. Communicate the problems, try to understand the cause, where it comes from. If the body of humanity contains enough diversity, some of its cells are able to demonstrate alternative behavior and practices that over come the problems. The benefits are shown. And imitated. Because everyone wants to benefit.. It works when there is recognition of a whole human environment. Its potential and possibilities. Its diversity. History ( and biology) show that when parts of Humanity can't or won't recognize the commonality of humanity, remaining focused on our differences, Its impossible to work together to achieve potential. Demonstrations of potential are tainted by association and not recognized for any benefits they bring.There is no common belief in Humanity. The difference is held to be unacceptable. Inhuman, with no place in Human society or commonality. Not some thing that we can work with to affect, change or improve. It becomes, biologicaly speaking, a foreign body to be expelled or rejected. Then we get a process of elimination, oppression, censure and a common antagonism of forces in opposition. Attacks on the 'self' of humanity that harm the whole. Its can't work in syncronicity. Thats the physics of an Identity environment. The 'body' of an identity can't hold integrity by rejecting its own diversity. An organism, an organization. An identity. It can only be held together with any integrity or lasting viability with common belief in its 'self'. Recognition of all its parts. Genetic diversity is an essential part of response and adaptation to changing conditions. Now transfer that to Dog breeders. That is also an Identity. Comprised of anyone who breeds Dogs. Weather you can recognize them as dog breeders or not. an identified environment of all its 'own' parts. All are part of the same whole. It works together and demonstrates to all its parts the effective responses that over come problems and allow growth and viability. Or it doesn't and suffers the fate of an organism/organization with insufficient diversity in its genetic makeup to adapt and conform to the demands of its environment.

I hope thats not going to be the case, and maybe that hope is miss placed. If its not permitted. But it looks to me like it is aimed at small hobby breeders. To try and change what they are doing to some thing better and more socialy responsible. Dog knows there is need for that, and for demonstrations of why that hobby model is best for buyers and dogs. There is representation and some form of mentoring urgently needed. Pedigree Dogs depend on that too .Because if you eliminate back yard breeders, small scale hobby pedigree breeders will follow them very quickly. I guarantee it. The general lack of responsibility to dogs in the community is a symptom of an ailing environment .The K.Cs depend on its health. Yet as soon as anyone tries to demonstrate an ability to respond, its discredited. Because its not ANKC . So ANKC won't recognize it and no one else should either. But its a responsibility ANKC refuse themselves. The result is biophysicaly predictable, for an Identity that refuses to recognize its environment- It looses responsibility. The organizational Identity is acting in accordance with the blue print laid down at inception, for predictable results.

If the statements are honest, they don't intend to encourage mass breeding of genetically poor puppies- but provide a service and co-mentoring avenue to prevent that and teach best responses to avoid the problems in a practice that won't stop. People will breed dogs of their choosing, as long as they choose to have dogs. ANKC or not. Seems mostly not. Rather than say they can not choose what dogs they want and where from, surely its better to work with those people to ensure they have the knowledge to do it responsibly and have clear ideas of what they are trying to achieve, weather there is a place for the results, and how best get there while minimizing costs to the community they should be serving. Pure or cross. Should not make a difference in approach. Mass breeding of genetically poor puppies is just as inexcusable no matter who is doing it.Who ever is going to breed dogs has a responsibility not just to standards, but to the community. If some one is willing to try to facilitate that, good for them. It may not have been needed if such dogs were recognized by the bodies that took that job on in the 1st place. You can't have an org. claiming concern with the welfare of all dogs when it does not recognize the greater majority. Hypocricy to think organization can work for pedigrees but no other.

Congrats Rebanne, a stunning bunch!

Just maybe, the community can learn to take back responsibility for the dogs they have and the dogs they get and expose some of the hypocricy.

If the K.Cs and their members, as 'the' Authorities on the breeding of domestic Dogs can't recognize Dogs or their breeders who are not breeding exclusively to the standards and protocols as set out in their constitutions there is no other future for domestic dogs. Full Stop. They might as well sign their own death certificate now. If domestic dogs are not a community interest and responsibility, they must be a Government responsibility. To be a community responsibility requires familiarity and interest in all aspects of what you are expected to take responsibility for. What you are expected to respond to. The K.Cs do not recognize a responsible/dog community beyond the K.Cs. They have spent the last 150 or so years disproving one. Beyond the K.Cs is only backyard breeders. A term used by Pedigree Breeders since inception of the K.Cs to describe all things wrong with Dog breeding outside of a K.Cs standards and protocols. They have not managed to definitively separate Dogs bred within the K.Cs and its membership from any of those practices. They never will as long as there is anything to practice because the only real divider between a K.C bred dog or BYBer is the Pedigree issued by the K.C. Thats the line. Any other can't ever be definitive. So every time the k.C members chip away at the integrity of that community they undermine their own. There is barely anything left to stand on. Pedigrees were founded on Backyard breeders. Those are the foundations of every pedigree the K.Cs recognize today. People breeding dogs for their own purposes, tried and proven in the specific and diverse environments they came from. Their own back yards. You. can. not. undermine that and be left with with anything to stand on. The Pedigree dogs foundations are almost gone because the understanding /familiarity needed for response-ability is refused. The K.Cs don't recognize and won't respond to the needs of the communities they depend on to survive. STOP blaming every one else in their ignorance. Where have the experts been? What have they been doing to demonstrate what dogs need? What have they done to demonstrate the best ways to raise dogs that fit well into the environments people can provide, or to demonstrate how to provide the environments dogs need to do that? They have not been demonstrating effective responses to dogs, in their diversity, so more of us see they can serve our own. They call for regulations mostly, to ensure that environments that don't work for people or dogs, ever, don't exist. Regulations to tell people what dogs need. Always. Or regulations to ban dogs that could end up inappropriate environments. Denying any responsibility. Demanding standards instead. Environments that can't and won't change. So we never have to question our own responses. Instead of taking responsibility. Creating the environment you want , using what you have. That throws responsibility to government. Heavily regulated, licensed industry is much easier to regulate than a bunch of scattered small hobbyists. BYBers OR K.C. where 'Standards' must be diverse as the backyards where they take place. The greyhound industry has had a lesson in how hard it is to police your own, to standards set by communities they don't recognize. The K.Cs have also had warning. There is a petition circulating now to ban the breeding of Brachycephalic breeds. The community so far still thinks dogs are worth having, But if BYBers are to be avoided at all costs and pedigree breeders can't meet needs or demands of the communities they hope to supply, we are going to be stuck with livestock, not companions. The community might not find dogs worth it all for much longer. Refusal to recognize what you don't want does not and can not work. All it does is creates a system of elimination that gradualy erodes any other possibility. Growth does not come from elimination. It can only come from recognizing and demonstrating possibility. The K.Cs do not recognize possibility beyond the 'standards' that represent unchanging and static environments. The process set in place through that refusal to recognize has been remaking the world in their own image of static, unchanging environment. Puppy mills it is. Because the community, now mostly ignorant of how to respond to dogs, still wants them from some where and the K.Cs insist on enforcable standards with no need of community response. They can't be trusted.

Sadly, a lot of it also comes from pedigree breeders trying to tell people that dog breeding is a pastime for experts and not some thing that should be done in the backyard with your pets- Instead of actualy teaching people how to avoid the pitfalls, what a good breeder does and why to get the best results. Crack down on 'backyard breeding', rather than the specific practices you are associating with the term, and what else can you expect?

If they do what they say they will, Good!

Thanks @Panto Yes, I've passed on K9Pro details. Sounds to me like better leadership skills would go a long way. An older working couple.

So sorry Boronia. Hugs. Its like a shadow where there they once filled the space.

Yes is was a handsome boy! Makes me think hey, maybe a Shiba? So sorry for your loss. Run fast and free lovely boy.

Hi Fergal, This thread doesn't seem to get much traffic. You 'might' have better luck in general. I've had many Dobes fine with other dogs, One being out standing in that she could read and seem to take charge of any situation, calming fearful and reactive dogs. A Very stable and supremely confident bitch. I have also had a couple with more need to assert status. Hope you get some more experienced replies from breeders more familiar with the lines being used today. Hope thats not a problem creeping in to the lines because its certainly not what I hope to find either.

I.M.O if symptoms mimic the same in humans, from similar sets of conditions, then to all intents and purposes its the same. While I an happy to treat Dogs as Dogs, not as furry people, and agree thats mostly not in the best interests of either, We are all just animals of different sorts, so a lot of the terms we use to explain or describe behavior is interchangeable. Research into conciouness seems to indicate that there is less separation between humans and other animals than most assume. The Cambridge Declaration of Conciousness is a 'recent' result that hasn't had the attention it deserves

For a couple recently in Aust.. With a very large 2y.o male. Dog was said to be very friendly, gentle boy,but since 1st quarantene then a couple weeks later a cruciate Op. has started to growl at his owners when they grab his collar. Have suggested a vet. check and will give K9Pro, but just wondering if there is another with recommendations closer to their home in Mid west N.S.W. Not sure if Steve will do video/email consults or if travel with this dog is going to be difficult. I have not seen the dog personaly, but have been asked for suggestions by a 3rd party.

Oh! Such a sweet looking face. So sorry Flashsmum.

Maybe I have missed it, but I haven't seen people on here being treated badly for asking advise on flea treatment. When we moved onto our land it had the worst flea infestation I have seen. Going into the dirt floored shed you would come out with a carpet running up your leg. It took awhile, but have to agree its certainly possible to be flea free when you don't have to worry about what comes from next door. We are also flea free. It may be common, and not worth being upset about Smokey, but it shouldn't be 'normal' either.

I can understand why some breeders desex early, but it would be a deal breaker for me too. Seems in some cases, it might mean more responsible buyers go else where?

Some thing missed ? I am saying that working dogs, or the purpose for any dog should have far more prominence in the pedigree system and how we talk about and define them. Recognition that their purpose isn't only to fit a standard mold as decided by others. I woulds love to see more of your dogs.