moosmum

LOL, One more to quit on a luckier number. @RuralPug I have nothing against the dog fancy. There is good reason to believe in the Pedigree system and the standards it represents. A belief in that is only misplaced when it is so strong that to follow it requires a declaration that nothing 'less' will be recognized.. That to accept the Pedigree system means rejection of all that surrounds it and all that lead up to it. Thats where the problems begin. It moves the practice beyond its science to blind faith. I don't give you the problems. I don't bring them up to accuse. I bring them up to show the the results of a flaw that make them predictable. There is a response available. But it must be invisible to faith because no one seems able to bring it into their focus. All they see is attack and accusation. All thats required is to change the mission statement from one that does not recognize 'cross breed' dogs, to read more like - " We do not accept into the pedigree system dogs that have have not been bred to our protocols for accepted breed standards, Though we insist that all dogs receive equal recognition of any value to their species and humanity without prejudice or censure." I don't claim all K.C problems would vanish. Certainly not overnight. But it would remove the barrier preventing the effectiveness of existing solutions, and open new directions to recognizing others. The K.C membership identity is fixed to a set response of rejection to over come environmental difficulties. But its only set with that declaration, that refuses to recognize diversity and puts all and any belief into fixed standards. One environment. With none permitted to leak out to embrace the species. Even though the standards would remain. Even though the K.C member identity would remain. And even though the purpose would be regained of improvement to the standard of Dogs- Overall. By encouraging people who cross breed to see to they too have some thing to gain from a pedigree system, and may still contribute to it, you gain diversity of membership and response. The benefits also flow out. An Identity ( even a K.C identity) is not set or fixed, while it has enough diversity to allow recognition of new response when its presented. Acceptance of those is still choice, but its not open without recognition. So the rest is up to the K.C.s

Believe it or not, I have been trying to show The K.Cs how to open a way over come many of the problems besetting them. by pointing out a single flaw and showing how it is affecting much of what is happening. it has cost me. Its unpopular. But I have kept trying because i happened to believe in the potential of pedigree dogs. I just spent several hours explaining clearly the physics behind this only to have it deleated before completion. It may have made what I have been trying to accomplish clear, at last. But I give up, as many more sensible have and are doing. I'm afraid the K.Cs realy are on their own. As they insist. Not much purpose in that for anyone but the K.Cs. I can't keep any belief in that.

You can pick an Identity. if its humanity -Human behavior is causing problems for humanity, holding it back, stifling growth and costing valuable/limited resources. We address those problems and find better ways as human beings with common belief for humanity. We work with what we have to make it some thing better. Communicate the problems, try to understand the cause, where it comes from. If the body of humanity contains enough diversity, some of its cells are able to demonstrate alternative behavior and practices that over come the problems. The benefits are shown. And imitated. Because everyone wants to benefit.. It works when there is recognition of a whole human environment. Its potential and possibilities. Its diversity. History ( and biology) show that when parts of Humanity can't or won't recognize the commonality of humanity, remaining focused on our differences, Its impossible to work together to achieve potential. Demonstrations of potential are tainted by association and not recognized for any benefits they bring.There is no common belief in Humanity. The difference is held to be unacceptable. Inhuman, with no place in Human society or commonality. Not some thing that we can work with to affect, change or improve. It becomes, biologicaly speaking, a foreign body to be expelled or rejected. Then we get a process of elimination, oppression, censure and a common antagonism of forces in opposition. Attacks on the 'self' of humanity that harm the whole. Its can't work in syncronicity. Thats the physics of an Identity environment. The 'body' of an identity can't hold integrity by rejecting its own diversity. An organism, an organization. An identity. It can only be held together with any integrity or lasting viability with common belief in its 'self'. Recognition of all its parts. Genetic diversity is an essential part of response and adaptation to changing conditions. Now transfer that to Dog breeders. That is also an Identity. Comprised of anyone who breeds Dogs. Weather you can recognize them as dog breeders or not. an identified environment of all its 'own' parts. All are part of the same whole. It works together and demonstrates to all its parts the effective responses that over come problems and allow growth and viability. Or it doesn't and suffers the fate of an organism/organization with insufficient diversity in its genetic makeup to adapt and conform to the demands of its environment.

I hope thats not going to be the case, and maybe that hope is miss placed. If its not permitted. But it looks to me like it is aimed at small hobby breeders. To try and change what they are doing to some thing better and more socialy responsible. Dog knows there is need for that, and for demonstrations of why that hobby model is best for buyers and dogs. There is representation and some form of mentoring urgently needed. Pedigree Dogs depend on that too .Because if you eliminate back yard breeders, small scale hobby pedigree breeders will follow them very quickly. I guarantee it. The general lack of responsibility to dogs in the community is a symptom of an ailing environment .The K.Cs depend on its health. Yet as soon as anyone tries to demonstrate an ability to respond, its discredited. Because its not ANKC . So ANKC won't recognize it and no one else should either. But its a responsibility ANKC refuse themselves. The result is biophysicaly predictable, for an Identity that refuses to recognize its environment- It looses responsibility. The organizational Identity is acting in accordance with the blue print laid down at inception, for predictable results.

If the statements are honest, they don't intend to encourage mass breeding of genetically poor puppies- but provide a service and co-mentoring avenue to prevent that and teach best responses to avoid the problems in a practice that won't stop. People will breed dogs of their choosing, as long as they choose to have dogs. ANKC or not. Seems mostly not. Rather than say they can not choose what dogs they want and where from, surely its better to work with those people to ensure they have the knowledge to do it responsibly and have clear ideas of what they are trying to achieve, weather there is a place for the results, and how best get there while minimizing costs to the community they should be serving. Pure or cross. Should not make a difference in approach. Mass breeding of genetically poor puppies is just as inexcusable no matter who is doing it.Who ever is going to breed dogs has a responsibility not just to standards, but to the community. If some one is willing to try to facilitate that, good for them. It may not have been needed if such dogs were recognized by the bodies that took that job on in the 1st place. You can't have an org. claiming concern with the welfare of all dogs when it does not recognize the greater majority. Hypocricy to think organization can work for pedigrees but no other.

Congrats Rebanne, a stunning bunch!

Just maybe, the community can learn to take back responsibility for the dogs they have and the dogs they get and expose some of the hypocricy.

If the K.Cs and their members, as 'the' Authorities on the breeding of domestic Dogs can't recognize Dogs or their breeders who are not breeding exclusively to the standards and protocols as set out in their constitutions there is no other future for domestic dogs. Full Stop. They might as well sign their own death certificate now. If domestic dogs are not a community interest and responsibility, they must be a Government responsibility. To be a community responsibility requires familiarity and interest in all aspects of what you are expected to take responsibility for. What you are expected to respond to. The K.Cs do not recognize a responsible/dog community beyond the K.Cs. They have spent the last 150 or so years disproving one. Beyond the K.Cs is only backyard breeders. A term used by Pedigree Breeders since inception of the K.Cs to describe all things wrong with Dog breeding outside of a K.Cs standards and protocols. They have not managed to definitively separate Dogs bred within the K.Cs and its membership from any of those practices. They never will as long as there is anything to practice because the only real divider between a K.C bred dog or BYBer is the Pedigree issued by the K.C. Thats the line. Any other can't ever be definitive. So every time the k.C members chip away at the integrity of that community they undermine their own. There is barely anything left to stand on. Pedigrees were founded on Backyard breeders. Those are the foundations of every pedigree the K.Cs recognize today. People breeding dogs for their own purposes, tried and proven in the specific and diverse environments they came from. Their own back yards. You. can. not. undermine that and be left with with anything to stand on. The Pedigree dogs foundations are almost gone because the understanding /familiarity needed for response-ability is refused. The K.Cs don't recognize and won't respond to the needs of the communities they depend on to survive. STOP blaming every one else in their ignorance. Where have the experts been? What have they been doing to demonstrate what dogs need? What have they done to demonstrate the best ways to raise dogs that fit well into the environments people can provide, or to demonstrate how to provide the environments dogs need to do that? They have not been demonstrating effective responses to dogs, in their diversity, so more of us see they can serve our own. They call for regulations mostly, to ensure that environments that don't work for people or dogs, ever, don't exist. Regulations to tell people what dogs need. Always. Or regulations to ban dogs that could end up inappropriate environments. Denying any responsibility. Demanding standards instead. Environments that can't and won't change. So we never have to question our own responses. Instead of taking responsibility. Creating the environment you want , using what you have. That throws responsibility to government. Heavily regulated, licensed industry is much easier to regulate than a bunch of scattered small hobbyists. BYBers OR K.C. where 'Standards' must be diverse as the backyards where they take place. The greyhound industry has had a lesson in how hard it is to police your own, to standards set by communities they don't recognize. The K.Cs have also had warning. There is a petition circulating now to ban the breeding of Brachycephalic breeds. The community so far still thinks dogs are worth having, But if BYBers are to be avoided at all costs and pedigree breeders can't meet needs or demands of the communities they hope to supply, we are going to be stuck with livestock, not companions. The community might not find dogs worth it all for much longer. Refusal to recognize what you don't want does not and can not work. All it does is creates a system of elimination that gradualy erodes any other possibility. Growth does not come from elimination. It can only come from recognizing and demonstrating possibility. The K.Cs do not recognize possibility beyond the 'standards' that represent unchanging and static environments. The process set in place through that refusal to recognize has been remaking the world in their own image of static, unchanging environment. Puppy mills it is. Because the community, now mostly ignorant of how to respond to dogs, still wants them from some where and the K.Cs insist on enforcable standards with no need of community response. They can't be trusted.

Sadly, a lot of it also comes from pedigree breeders trying to tell people that dog breeding is a pastime for experts and not some thing that should be done in the backyard with your pets- Instead of actualy teaching people how to avoid the pitfalls, what a good breeder does and why to get the best results. Crack down on 'backyard breeding', rather than the specific practices you are associating with the term, and what else can you expect?

If they do what they say they will, Good!

Thanks @Panto Yes, I've passed on K9Pro details. Sounds to me like better leadership skills would go a long way. An older working couple.

So sorry Boronia. Hugs. Its like a shadow where there they once filled the space.

Yes is was a handsome boy! Makes me think hey, maybe a Shiba? So sorry for your loss. Run fast and free lovely boy.

Hi Fergal, This thread doesn't seem to get much traffic. You 'might' have better luck in general. I've had many Dobes fine with other dogs, One being out standing in that she could read and seem to take charge of any situation, calming fearful and reactive dogs. A Very stable and supremely confident bitch. I have also had a couple with more need to assert status. Hope you get some more experienced replies from breeders more familiar with the lines being used today. Hope thats not a problem creeping in to the lines because its certainly not what I hope to find either.

I.M.O if symptoms mimic the same in humans, from similar sets of conditions, then to all intents and purposes its the same. While I an happy to treat Dogs as Dogs, not as furry people, and agree thats mostly not in the best interests of either, We are all just animals of different sorts, so a lot of the terms we use to explain or describe behavior is interchangeable. Research into conciouness seems to indicate that there is less separation between humans and other animals than most assume. The Cambridge Declaration of Conciousness is a 'recent' result that hasn't had the attention it deserves

For a couple recently in Aust.. With a very large 2y.o male. Dog was said to be very friendly, gentle boy,but since 1st quarantene then a couple weeks later a cruciate Op. has started to growl at his owners when they grab his collar. Have suggested a vet. check and will give K9Pro, but just wondering if there is another with recommendations closer to their home in Mid west N.S.W. Not sure if Steve will do video/email consults or if travel with this dog is going to be difficult. I have not seen the dog personaly, but have been asked for suggestions by a 3rd party.

Oh! Such a sweet looking face. So sorry Flashsmum.

Maybe I have missed it, but I haven't seen people on here being treated badly for asking advise on flea treatment. When we moved onto our land it had the worst flea infestation I have seen. Going into the dirt floored shed you would come out with a carpet running up your leg. It took awhile, but have to agree its certainly possible to be flea free when you don't have to worry about what comes from next door. We are also flea free. It may be common, and not worth being upset about Smokey, but it shouldn't be 'normal' either.

I can understand why some breeders desex early, but it would be a deal breaker for me too. Seems in some cases, it might mean more responsible buyers go else where?

Some thing missed ? I am saying that working dogs, or the purpose for any dog should have far more prominence in the pedigree system and how we talk about and define them. Recognition that their purpose isn't only to fit a standard mold as decided by others. I woulds love to see more of your dogs.

If the dogs must be pedigreed to be competing in the sport or working aspects, then the pedigree and its standards are already an integral part of the working aptitude. The dog doesn't need to be judged in the show ring to to compete because its already part of the accepted standard. By its inclusion in the pedigree system. The pedigree standard is recognized as a needed component before that dog can compete. In those instances, the standards have a huge impact on working ability because there is a compromise expected. In some cases that is already resulting in a reduced ability to respond to the purpose, for the dogs, or the handlers to respond to the dogs. The same is not true in reverse. A working ability is irrelevant to the standards of the Pedigree system. Which is judged and confirmed in the show ring. With out compromise to any other environment. The sport or trials have a different environment governing selection in addition to the standard. The standards are set, unless a consensus votes to change them. The pedigree is set, by the rules and regulations for registration. The breeds stay 'pure' of anything that could take away from them by the rules of the registration system, unless a consensus votes for change. What non -recognition does is to set the culture that governs what does happen as well. In time and place/space. Entropy.

But it is the venue to decide the best representative of the Standard on a given day. That includes traits that are not physical. Yet no other event is designed to do that, so members should be forgiven for the confusion. I have no problem with people choosing to show their dogs. It is one purpose people have to keep dogs- To compete in conformation events that bring recognition as good ANKC breeders. It may not be intended as an all round accolade, but its natural that that will be the result when un- papered dogs are not 'recognized' and the merits of pedigree standards are decided in the show ring with nothing else influencing a members or judges decisions. Almost all reason for that attitude is that what happens to or with dogs out side of those ANKC pedigree standards is not recognized. And what lies outside of those is the environment ANKC has to deal with. You can not achieve 'improvement' without recognition of the environment. Improvement is evolution. Environment defines improvement in evolution. Not the entity. Even if if it does keep pedigrees. No matter who keeps records or to what purpose, improvement is defined by environment. Not records. It would not affect Pedigrees or their breeders to change that, but would open the way to bring the changes they profess to need. Seems from the out side that need and want are not the same because without that change, the cultural barriers are still there. Its fine and dandy to have protocols, but if the barriers to using them are too great, use of them will be too rare a thing to be much use. Why would people use protocols, if the results of that will be refusal to recognize the benefits ( or the members responsible) by a large proportion of member breeders, who are supported by the ANKCs own opening statements? Any such challenge to the pedigree and its standard condition, as it stands today is a challenge to the cultural direction laid down by the ANKC itself. Regardless of what may have been lost along the way. Like maybe an ability to process uric acid. Or work. Or breathe. A standard is just a condition, as its been set out. Its recognized by its familiarity, as it is. Not as it might be or could be. As its accepted to be, in the show ring. Weather you can understand that or not.

Are they recognized in the show ring when deciding best of breed?

Or were judged definitively as the best runner, gymnast or swimmer based on physical appearance in a line up?

Yes! And that transfers responsibility of personal choice away from the individual, doing their bit for whats important to them , to the ANKC. Who can't be responsible for personal choice, or what is valued in other environments. The only environment that ANKC experience in common with their members is the show ring. So it now directs personal choices before they can be found acceptable.