Simply Grand

Yes, we certainly can go beyond pure logic in some situations and people routinely do exactly that. However, surely you can not be upset when people apply the same principal to you? For example (sorry, here I go with the examples again) I have seen so called "crazies" on animal rights pages cursing shelter staff and vets for putting down animals, instead of refusing to participate in this act where innocent animals are killed for no reason at all. How do you feel about this? Do you feel it is right and just for those people to ignore your reasons for participating or would you prefer if those people listened to your reasons with an open mind and perhaps acknowledged that you were not being a cruel and heartless person, but did what you felt was best for XYZ reasons? Do you prefer that people judge you based on their emotions in that very first moment of hearing your story or would you prefer they go beyond their initially startled emotions and perhaps confront the facts behind your actions? I do not mean to attack anybody personally but the whole "do not judge lest ye be judged" and "rocks in a glass house" and all those other sayings seem pretty appropriate to me. Making me think again! I guess the only way I can really accept being involved in the intentional death of animals is by 1) being confident that we do consider all options and that I personally am confident that rehoming is not, for whatever reason, a positive outcome for that animal (I by no means have final say although I am lucky that my views are very much taken into account) and 2) being of the opinion that a calm, minimal stress, respectful death is not the worst thing that could happen to an animal. I have to remain confident in the fact that I (and my colleagues) NEVER take the responsibility lightly and always keep the welfare of the animal in mind. To me, part of that is making sure the death of the animal is managed so that stress for that particular animal is minimised and that the person or people they are closest to/calmest with are there at the time, for the animals sake. As some others have expressed, I hope that the people who knew Marius best and he was most comfortable with were happy with this situation. I find it hard to believe that he was at his happiest and most relaxed in a small yard with an audience and vets present, although perhaps he was, so again I hope those who knew him best had a say. Re. what's right and just, there are plenty of people out there who form their opinion and WILL NOT listen to anyone else, and whilst I am willing to be open about any decision I made along these lines and why, and to listen to opposing views, if someone is not willing to consider the other side's position at al, particularly if they were not involved in the situation then they are not someone whose opinion I place any value in, whatever the issue. People do however have a right to their opinions, whether they are based on facts or not. Although I have confidence in my opinions I can't make everyone think the same as me

Plenty of people surrender dogs to a shelter, are given the option of being told beforehand if the animal is to be euthanased with the option to take it back and choose not to be told, preferring to either assume it didn't happen to,their dog or just not willing to know about it. People know it happens whether sometimes whether they see it or not and I suspect seeing it wouldn't actually change their behaviour in the future if they were in the same situation again tbh.

I knew you werent having a go at me and I sort of feel that my reaction to it all is rather emotional and unrealistic but its how I feel about it . Having a show put on killing and cutting up and serving the animal which has been known to those who visited and saw it as a living creature just makes me feel its a rather insensitive to those who had seen this animal as part of the zoo experience walking and moving around etc. There is a big difference between having an already dead chicken thrown to a croc or a lamb shank fed to a dog or even seeing the croc kill its own food because its an animal and not supposed to give a shit but as humans I feel we should consider taking the life of a living creature something that's done with some kind of empathy and sorrow - as a necessary evil - not as a basis for some side show. Its sick. Yes and yes Steve, I agree. I've been trying to think logically about what it is that bothers me about this and to be honest I think it is something beyond logic and practicality. I don't have a particular problem with Marius being killed as it does sound like it was done quickly, humanely and he wouldn't have known what was happening, and I certainly have no problem with him being fed to the lions. I admit I was a bit taken aback at the pictures of the beautiful giraffe skin on the chunks of meat however I can easily overcome that with the realisation that that is exactly how it would be in the wild. My feelings are coloured by my experiences being with shelter dogs as they are euthanased, in both shelter and zoo situations we as humans have put these animals into a highly unnatural situation and taken away all control they have over their lives and I therefore feel that we have a huge responsibility to do out best for them and that includes acknowledging that the decision and act of taking their lives are significant and to be taken seriously. To me making it a public event where anyone can just turn up to watch for whatever reason suits them doesn't do that. I even feel it's different to the responsibility we have to our own pets - we (as decent pet owners) give them a life they are supposed to have as domestic pets, a stable home environment, attention, exercise, an extent of freedom to do the things they want to do etc etc so to me we then have more of a right to decide on the circumstances of their death (who is there, what happens afterwards etc). Shelter and I assume zoo animals form close bonds with the people who spend the most time with them and feel most comfortable and happy with those people, not with the people who come and look at them from outside their enclosure, so those are the people who should be there to share their last moments, not all and sundry who feel like turning up. I know it isn't very logical as technically I know the giraffe and our shelter dogs don't know that they are about to have their last moments, but can't we go beyond pure logic in certain situations? I can certainly see the value in people who eat meat going to a farm and watching an animal that humans in their part of the world actually eat and that has been raised for food being killed and butchered, although I still don't feel comfortable with it being a "come one, come all, slaughter at 3pm" type event, but I don't think using a giraffe that is to be fed to lions in a zoo is really comparable to that. sorry for the rambling, I'm finding it hard to get my thoughts completely into words on this one.

Delete coz I got confused

Oh yeah Altough I do enjoy movies that evoke strong emotions so I'd still prefer not to know the outcome (I also love watching horror movies alone at night in the dark...yeah I'm weird )

Yes!! I never even really crate trained Saxon and he didn't sleep in one as a puppy (hmm, actually he's never slept in one overnight) but several times when I've stayed in dog friendly accom/friend's house between houses, where they didn't want them left inside unaccompanied I've set him up in the (large) crate and he' s been quite happy hanging out there staying out of trouble while I went out for a few hours and couldn't take him with me Aside from that, the usual keeping a puppy contained overnight so they can't wee and poo everywhere or keep everyone awake all night trying to play.

The book is good though, I'm glad I read it before watching, although I did bawl through half of it. I still liked the movie though and cried in that too

I cannot believe people stood around and watched! And with their children!! SMH article quotes zoo staff as saying it was a good opportunity for children to get an understanding of the anatomy of a giraffe...seriously? Watching one be butchered is the best way for them to learn that?! http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/marius-the-giraffe-killed-at-copenhagen-zoo-and-fed-to-lions-20140210-hvbqt.html

I like that you said to the first person that she should do some reading, as in OF THE SIGNS, not that difficult people. I feel your pain, I had a large, untested with dogs as yet, entire male shelter dog on lead, (at the shelter, on the way to taking him to his kennel) when a member of the public's large male off leash dog ran straight up to us with her some distance behind... thankfully my shelter dog responded surprisingly well, despite how tightly I was holding him on lead and how much the other dog was in his face until the owner got him but it was pretty scary watching the other dog run towards us expecting to be in the middle of a full on dog fight

awww I think someone should have rescued the puppy at the end, it was terrified. Assuming you are talking about the YouTube clip, not the one in the OP, I kinda agree, although I love the look the Crestie gave him, like "wtf dude??" I didn't like the one where the people cracked up while the cat chased the screaming dog all over the road the first one's funny though, "I'll teach you to gently tap me into the bath tub!" Love the stair case lessons :laugh:

Great advice from everyone, and Steve put so eloquently how you could word what you say to the breeder. Please please please don't fall into the trap of feeling sorry for the puppy or unable to say no to the breeder and taking it early, you will be setting yourself up for an incredibly difficult and unenjoyable time raising a puppy who has nowhere near learnt the "dog" life skills it needs, and you (or any human) cannot possibly teach it what it needs to learn from mum and litter mates . Good luck :)

Thanks for the great advice everyone! I'll try all the options and hopefully find one/some that work for her. I certainly don't want to set her up for anxious car travel for her eventual owners. Dyz, like yours she and her siblings are not nervy at all and she's been very confident in the other aspects of coming to my house and dealing with my dogs etc. I can find out how her siblings have gone on car rides. I'm glad you mentioned the reversing thing, I normally reverse out of the driveway so she would have started very trip backwards! I'll turn the car around before I put her in now. I'll keep everyone posted on how we go :)

Hmm, I wondered about the windows being open, I have had them open at the start of each drive because it's been so hot, then closed them once the air on has cooled down the car. I'll try leaving windows open and taking her for a drive with one or another of my dogs. I don't know about a Thundershirt, she's shown herself to be pretty confident in general so I don't think it's an anxiety/nervous response, other than maybe the fact that the car is brand new. I'll see how she goes :)

Thanks everyone! I do have one of those booster baskets from when Saxon was little, she'll fit in it for about 5 minutes so ill give it a try. She's only on antibiotics so I wouldn't have thought they'd contribute but maybe? I got 4 new tyres not long ago but I'll check the pressure (probably worth doing anyway!) It seems to start about 10 mins in, first she whinges at me from the back seat then goes quiet, at first I thought she'd just settled then looked back and realised no, poor bub was sick. I'd heard of ginger too and I'm sure she wouldn't say no to a ginger bicky, I'll try it!

What Nekhbet says!!!! That's exactly what we do with shelter dogs who aren't keen on people, first people become neutral and nothing to worry about because their 'person' is there to take care of things, then people become a source of treats IF they choose to approach, if they choose not to they don't have to but hopefully by then they can cope with the occasional person who doesn't listen when you tell them she's worried of people, let her approach you please. You do have to be tough with people sometimes unfortunately. ETA - eventually, once the pressure is off and they know they're free to avoid the situation if they want, they often realise that actually people are quite nice and fun to be around so don't be disheartened!

Don't be too hard on yourself Pinchy, puppies are HARD WORK (if you want to set them up to be good dogs, which its clear you do). It is confusing reading so much information and there are many different methods that people use. My suggestion is read everything then use your judgement about what makes sense, what you are comfortable doing and what you can realistically implement. Try not to expect too much from your puppy either, especially in the length of his concentration span. He's still very young so short (5 mins at a time) training sessions) and consistency in every interaction you (and everyone) have with him are what will help him learn what you want from him at this age. ETA - I don't really see an issue with mixing up how he gets his kibble, it will keep mealtime interesting and get him thinking. Good idea to have bone time as consistently quiet on mat time though so he knows the difference between activity kibble time and lie still bone time.

Yesterday I brought home an 8 week old puppy to foster for a few weeks while she has some medical treatment. I took her back into work today to play with her siblings then home again this evening. One each car trip (25-30mins) the poor little thing was carsick She drooled up a storm and lay there looking pretty miserable, and when she had food in her belly she threw it up. Any tips to help her not feel so yucky? And is it something puppies tend to grow out of? She hadn't been in a car before yesterday.

Yes, Taliecat, me too! I try so hard not to move or show I'm awake but somehow Quinn knows and comes up behind me, sticks her head over my shoulder and gives me a morning face bath

Oh yeah, I forgot the walk all over me as though I'm just part of the blanket pile bit...

I voted for hog the bed, leave presents and lie on top of me. I usually end up squeezed in one position along the side of the bed not able to move anywhere while the dogs surround me. They technically don't sleep on top of me, they just arrange themselves so that they're all leaning against me on either side so I can move. I'm not sure what kind of 'presents' you menat sg :p but mind have a knack for putting tiny chewed up shards of plastic in the bed so when I get in or roll over I get stabbed

Absolutely! You are working so hard and it's great to hear the 5 babies are hanging in there.

I've used pee pads for an indoor toilet, they quickly picked up to use them but there was often some overspray onto the surrounding floor I have two clamshell pools with potting mix covered with fake grass as their toilets in my concrete courtyard now. They work well and the dogs immediately took to using them. I don't notice much smell outside but they'd probably be a bit stinky inside. I think the proper commercial dog toilets have some sort of odour reducing stuff so I think one would probably be a good investment. Hopefully he'd be able to hold long enough to get to it, and you could always put a couple around I suppose.

Well done AngryTardis :) I can understand your frustration and think you are doing the responsible thing by working with Aidan to see where you can get to with this dog, and being wary of rehoming him. I hope you have good results, and I agree it would be great to hear how you go.

Great advice :)

How amazing, 6 little miracles! Well done Reba and SLF :D