Simply Grand

I have another question for those knowledgeable about the use of e collars - do dogs generally "get used to" a certain level of the stimulation and stop responding to it, meaning you need to increase the level to get the response again? A lady at the dog park near where I'm staying has one her dog and she said today that she's had to up the level of the shock (her term) as the dog had started ignoring the lower level she had been using.

Oops posted in the wrong thread! That's the first time I've done that.

Yes,thanks for getting the topic back to educational posts, as Mcfarlon demo's here conditioning Foundation For Off lead Distance Recall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsO66m4e820 Meanwhile, here in UK, in 2006, the method of using tapping to give an instruction to down stay so any lost dog could be recovered if it had a remote activation tracking beeper on. See the vid demo carried out on normal exercise, 2008 vid clip....over 20 e-stims occure in the 4 examples shown Excercise For *Lost Dog Recovery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdwIMrcW0hc * Appx 3 years ago Tri Tronics sold out to Garmin, the lost dog recovery exercise is now possible up 9 miles with the garmin-tri tronics integrated technologies http://www.garmin.com/en-US/explore/onthetrail/sporting-dogs#track-train . You've addressed that post to me but quoted huski, who, like Corvus, was providing a reasoned response to my comments, so I don't quite follow your point. I'll look a bit more at the rest of your post tomorrow when I'm more awake.

Kudos to curvus, such a medium scale work of the highest artistic and and intellectual impact is surely worth submitting in a major competitionfor international art & litrature. . Wow, way to have a genuine discussion Denis, completely dismiss Corvus's research based comment. Makes it very hard for me to take what you've said seriously.

No assments have been made by them to see if he worthy of breeding with. They never spend time with him. He knows basic obedience but nothing more. I told the breeders that I wanted to show him as soon as he was old enough and they told me that they would have to take him to a relative of theirs to see if he is suitable. Unfortunately for me the only other registered breeder I know breeds whippets. To those more experienced, is this the norm? Like I said before, wouldn't a breeder want to have some measure that a dog is actually a good breeding prospect before using him to stud?

If my puppy fell overboard I think I would instinctively jump in after it. Glad this little guy was saved! ETA I'm a strong swimmer though, maybe the pup's owner wasn't.

Just curious, have the breeders assessed the dog to see that he is actually a worthy breeding prospect? Have they spent much time with him? Melza83, have you been doing showing or dog sports with him? Just wondering because I wouldn't have thought a breeder would just call in a 17 month old dog to stud without having done some assessment of him before hand.

This is where i think the risk lies with these collars - plenty can be said in support of them, indicating that they dont cause any distress to the dog, and it sounds great to the lay person but I (as a lay person) don't think I understand enough about what either Denis or Corvus have said to actually make an informed decision, although if Corvus hadn't posted Denis's post comes across as quite definitive that there is nothing to be concerned about. Personally it doesn't make sense to me that something supposedly effective in reducing or eliminating a behaviour doesn't do anything other than send a mild pulse to the dog that doesn't bother it much. If that's the case why would the dog not just ignore it and continue the behaviour it wants to do?

Hahaha, we had the ad come on the other day too and all three dogs were going nuts! And it seemed to be the longest ad in the world while I was telling them to SHUT UP! Knowing my dogs it wouldn't be worth buying as most pricey toys get one look then ignored for old socks and cardboard boxes *eye roll*

I think (although I'm not sure) that the issue would be that an extended flexi lead could be longer than the specified leash length of 2m or whatever it is, not that they are completely illegal. Although I agree that it isn't a great informational document!

Perse, I follow a Facebook page for a double merle Aussie Shepherd in the U.S., the page is Keller the Double merle. She is deaf and has limited vision but lives a great life and her owner does a lot of work promoting awareness of the double merle gene, and living with and training a deaf dog. Might be worth a look... Link: https://www.facebook.com/Kellerthedm/?fref=nf

I do remember! I'm so glad you updated. He looks like a very happy boy and doesn't look like a cross to me. What a tough life he has with you :laugh:

To be fair, I think Willem is saying he sees a place for both electric fences and collars, and both should legal, he is just using sarcasm to do so...

Exactly TSD. Whatever people think or say. It's likely we all or almost all use punishment in our training and interactions with our dogs. Just like most of us use reinforcement (a consequence that increases a behaviour). They are what they are. Why not use the correct terms?

Yes well Wikipedia would know better than decades of scientific research :) Edited coz I'm not sure exactly when the research was started.

Scientifically a punishment is a consequence that reduces a behaviour recurring. That's how I'm using the term. "anger based" or "designed to hurt" is very subjective.

I guess in my mind, because it's learning under the same theory, when it comes to using aversives it's a bit like teaching a child the stove top is hot by letting them touch it vs telling them 10 times "don't touch the stove" then saying "good job" when you see them move away from the stove voluntarily. They probably only need to touch the hot stove and feel the consequence once to learn the lesson, and in the big picture it wouldn't necessarily cause much trauma, but I'd still rather they didn't do it.

The collar delivers an electric shock, why object to the term shock collar? I see a place for aversives in training but I think it's a cop out to avoid the use of the actual terms - "vibration" instead of shock, "correction" instead of punishment. If trainers are confident in their methods why not be open about what those methods are?

Oh the other reason is...dogs are weird :)

Saxon attempts to initiate play with other dogs by turning around and shoving his butt at them while he looks back over his shoulder and wags his tail madly :laugh:

If I'm doing something and Quinn is bored and wants my attention she goes over to the bookshelf where the DVDs are, pulls one out and throws it on the ground then looks at me, and repeats until I come and put them all back :laugh: I want to ignore her naughtiness but she starts chewing if I don't put the DVDs back so she wins! I think it depends on the dog whether they have the inclination to be naughty, my other two don't seem to do things like that.

Sounds like the breeder is trying to bluff the buyer into thinking they are ANKC registered. It would be a rare buyer who would want to pay 1200 for papers. That's what I was thinking too, they may be banking on no one actually being willing to pay $2800 instread of $1600 so they don't have to provide papers. Then if a buyer does want papers there is some mysterious issue...

A blue merle does not have any dilute genes. They grey colour isn't dilute. They are genetically a black dog with the merle (the grey bits) a separate masking gene on top. A Cattle Dog "blue", they are "roan". Their base colour is actually white with the black or red ticking over the top. Doggenetics Ah maddy already explained it yea, genetics in that link ^ So yea both give a bluish effect but neither are actually "blue". Yep Lisa, that's what I was saying, I think my punctuation made it confusing :) I said in a blue dog each hair is a dilute blue, a Merle dog has black and white hairs that make it look grey.

I suspect something else Mrs RB. I'm not sure but I think the ACD (Heeler) ticking is a gene in itself, like the Merle gene. So whereas in a blue dog each hair is a diluted black (grey-ish) in a Merle dog some hairs are black, some are white and that's what gives the grey effect. I think it might be the same with ticking, so blue and red cattle dogs all have a base colour plus the ticking gene. I'd also assume that the stumpy tail is a bobtail gene, separate from colour, like in various other breeds. Happy to learn if someone has more info tho!

So I saw a side of Quinn I haven't seen before today at the park. There was this young guy there with his girlfriend and their puppy, we've met the girlfriend and the pup a few times before but not the guy. He had a bag of treats in his pocket and initially gave Quinn some while he was standing up, then he walked over and sat down, she followed and he was doing some tricks with her (sit, drop, shake) and continued giving her treats. He then decided to stop, which was fine, but he was quite forceful I guess in how he told Quinn, he did a big arm sweep then smacked his hands on his thighs a couple of times. He absolutely meant nothing by it but it must have caught Quinn off guard and scared her coz she did that fearful, jump backwards thing. I think the guy thought she was playing with him because he smacked his thighs again then jumped up and ran towards her waving his arms at her while she continued to move away. She must have felt quite threatened because she kept moving away but was giving him serious "move away from me" barks. She was doing sideways body, low tail, ears down, whale eye at him (fearful, trying to appease) and kept moving away from him but when he kept coming towards her she straightened up at him and her mouth was starting to get into really tight, "I may think about biting you if you keep coming at me" posture. I'm not at all worried that she would have done it there as she clearly preferred moving away and had plenty of space to do so, and as soon as she registered me telling her that everything was really ok she relaxed, and if he had kept going towards her or she had escalated any further i would have told him myself to back off. I didn't want her to think I saw him as a threat though. I've often wondered whether she would protect herself / me / the other dogs from a human threat, especially as she will from another dog if necessary, and this indicates to me that she actually would if it really came down to it, especially if she was trapped and couldn't escape. Hope to god I never have to find out for real though!