Simply Grand

Nothing Australian in the dogs but they were used to work Australian sheep, we exported many merinos to US in late 19th, early 20th centuries...............dogs are from Europe, Basque shepherds went to US amongst other nationalities.....knowledgeable Aussie person says they can see Koolie traits in Aussies working, makes sense, Koolies came from Europe too...idea of breeds as such is pretty recent, dogs just came in "types" depending on their jobs in life, and their names usually derived from their locality or their job I've heard the basque sheep dogs may have been dogs of a similar type to pyrenean shepherds. If you look at the smooth faced you can see similarities. Both NBT and merle there too. And a bit of temperament too, going by the few Pyrs I've met - perfectly friendly with those they see as trustworthy or no threat, but willing to stand up if they need to.

Nothing Australian in the dogs but they were used to work Australian sheep, we exported many merinos to US in late 19th, early 20th centuries...............dogs are from Europe, Basque shepherds went to US amongst other nationalities.....knowledgeable Aussie person says they can see Koolie traits in Aussies working, makes sense, Koolies came from Europe too...idea of breeds as such is pretty recent, dogs just came in "types" depending on their jobs in life, and their names usually derived from their locality or their job Oh that's interesting, thanks dragonwoman. Makes sense really, dog that herds Aussie sheep = Aussie Shepherd. It is so confusing for people who have never heard of them before though - "no, they're not actually Australian, and no, they are not related to the other Shepherd you've heard of (German)..."

Isn't Schipperke 'barge dog'? I didn't know where Keeshond came from either, interesting. I knew a man of Dutch origin once whose first name was Kees, it was 'Australianised' to be pronounced 'keys' but was probably meant to be 'case' as in 'Keeshond'.

This is a very old thread! But FYI DAS and RSPCA ACT do have access to the NSW Companion Animal Register.

From what I've read Australian Shepherds were named because the breed was developed in the U.S. using sheep dogs sent on ships with sheep from Australia to the U.S. The breed has been in existence for a while, prior to the 1980s rise in popularity of all things Aussie in the U.S.

I understand that some people prefer that their dog doesn't get overexcited or reach a high aroused state (and they may have good reasons for this), but I don't want a 'robot' dog, so if my dog gets overexcited it is o.k....as long as I still can control it and can break it up if required. Hence the training with the flirt / flick pole...when the rag moves in front of her she trembles ...everything in her is just waiting for the 'Take-it'...and then bang she goes nuts....while she is chasing the rag in a very high aroused state I can train LEAVE-IT (she comes back to me in heel position), DROP...STAND, SIT...and all happens in a controlled environment....that works for my dog, other dogs might find this game boring so or their only play it on the 'usual treat earning scheme' at a lower arousal level (which doesn't give the same results). There is a difference between a dog highly aroused and in drive to do something like training or working, including Shutzhund, bitework, tracking, or playing with a flirt pole and a dog that is highly aroused because it feels as though another dog (or other threat) may be going to seriously injure or kill it. A dog that does not respond to their recall while they are fending off a dog that is trying to harm them, or that they feel is trying to harm them, is NOT a poorly trained dog, it is a dog that doesn't have room in its brain right then for anything other than protecting itself.

I really don't like to rely on anecdotal evidence or the experience of individuals to make generalisations, but just address one of your points Mrs RB, Saxon (my poodle x) isn't from a puppy mill. I visited the home he was bred in twice, met both his parents, his litter, the breeder, her husband, their three children and several of the children's friends, who were all involved in playing with and handling the pups. I'd say Saxon had more thorough early socialisation (as in handling, exposure to different types of people, different sounds, different surfaces, and new experiences in general) than either of my pure breeds. I got exactly what I wanted and was told I would get. So just because you haven't come across it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I was very lucky. I know that, and I have never once said to someone who likes Saxon or says that they want a dog like him that they should get a "Moodle". I explain the unpredictability, I explain the lack of health testing, I explain that if you cannot go and see for yourself, as I did ,how the puppies and parents are raised that you are likely to be supporting a puppy mill, and what that means for the parents of your cute puppy, and the puppy itself. As I've said before in other threads, I think saying to people that ANKC breeders are the only way to go and anyone else does things wrong and people are wrong to buy from them doesn't achieve anything. If everyone just focussed on what the right things to are, then everyone's breeding practices would speak for themselves. ETA the only reason I wouldn't go back to Saxon's breeder if I wanted another dog like him, or recommend her to other people is that as far as I'm aware they don't health check, which I think is really important, and she let me take him at 6.5 weeks (I didn't know any better), and I don't know if that is/was her standard practice, but I also think it is really important that litters stay with mum til 8weeks.

Now I think you're just trolling Willem. You are under no obligation to use the methods we are talking about if you don't understand them. As long as you are happy with your results with your dog of course you don't have to do what anyone else does.

I've meant plenty of people with pure pred (or what they believe are pure bred) dogs who had no idea what they were getting into, no idea about the temperament of the breed they were getting, the breed traits, the grooming requirements, the training requirements, exercise requirements etc, who wanted that breed based on looks, that is far from exclusive to people who buy "designer breeds". And I've met plenty of "designer breed" owners who did know what they were looking for and are responsible and dedicated owners. I have one, a "Moodle" (no I don't call him that myself, he's a poodle x) so I talk to a lot of other owners when we're out and about, I'm in an FB group with 300 of them so I see how they treat their dogs. Say what people will about the consequences of cross breeding on the health and well being of the animals, for sure, but singling out the owners as any worse or better than any other group of owners is inaccurate and unhelpful.

Lets assume that I walk Kivi instead of Corvus and Kive notices a thread...according to you Kivi will feel safe because he knows 'that he can control his fear' in heel...so he will just choose heeling to feel safe. Well, I don't believe it...he won't feel safe because there is no Corvus...as long as I can't replace Corvus as the attachment figure the heeling means nothing.... You'd have to test it to know I guess. I know Saxon will put himself in between someone else's feet if he is worried and I am not close enough (see my edit to above post), he has demonstrated that plenty of times. I know Riley is pretty quick to transfer his "jump into the arms" to feel safe to someone other than me, that person just doesn't always know to expect it.

Corvus taught Kivi a behaviour that she initiated when his level of perceived threat was low and demonstrated that if he kept up that behaviour throughout the time the threatening stimulus was present that he would remain safe. Kivi therefore learnt that if HE initiated that same behaviour he would remain safe in the presence of a threatening stimulus. So Kivi now makes the choice to initiate that behaviour when he feels a level of threat, because experience has shown him that he then remains safe. I don't think Corvus was going to abandon Kivi if he didn't walk in heel position, she would let him close to her no matter what if that was all it took to make him feel safe and calm. But instead of relying on Kivi feeling scared then scrambling to get close to her however he could, she taught him an alternate specific behaviour he could choose to initiate when he felt he needed to. I've done the same with Riley, his is jumping into my arms, and as I mentioned in a previous post, Saxon has taught himself his own, to put himself in between my feet.

I call Riley a bully, specifically because he does pick on the vulnerable ones, which bullies do because they have low self confidence. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but IME truly confident dogs just don't ever do the crawling approach, roll on back, "grovelling" thing. Both Saxon and Quinn have been meeting new dogs regularly since they were 12 weeks old (now 6.5 and 4 yrs respectively), I would classify them both as confident dogs, Quinn to the point of assertiveness, and they have never greeted a dog with grovelling. I have seen them use appeasement behaviours to avoid conflict with dogs that have previously or since gone on to show unreasonable aggression to other dogs, but I really think that the "grovelling" or "submitting" behaviour comes from a dog that isn't confident in their interactions with other dogs. Which isn't a bad thing at all, it's all part of dog behaviour, but I agree with Corvus that it is important to understand where our dog's are coming from.

Willem, the heeling itself didn't, it just so happened that heeling was the specific behaviour that Kivi learned was a behaviour he could CHOOSE to take control of his feelings in the situations where he felt distressed.

Oh I also meant to say, Saxon, my smallest dog, learned himself to put himself in between my feet whenever he feels really uncomfortable, like Corvus was saying. -R in the real world, where he discovered himself that the worry he felt from the other dog (or whatever it was) reduced when he was between my feet so he has continued that behaviour. I don't reward him for it, other than in that I allow him to do it and keep him safe when he does, although to be honest I can't think of many, if any, times I've had to actually ward off a threat once Saxon is with me.

Yes, Riley only has only ever reacted aggressively towards fearful, unsure younger dogs that immediately roll on their backs or try to get away from him. He also shows worried body language (leaning back, looking away, whale eye, paw lifts) when he find himself in a situation of being sniffed by a new dog that is more confident than him. I believe that's why teaching him that when he is uncomfortable he can always move away and find his own space or get to me worked so much better than trying to suppress his aggression in close quarters to the other dog. Now he can either approach or be approached by a new dog, have a sniff and then turns around of his own accord and comes back towards me looking very pleased with himself but it started at a much greater distance, where I would approach with him to a point where he focussed on the other dog and pricked his ears, then we'd stay there until he looked back at me (presumably because he was unsure what to do next) then he would get a big fuss as we moved away from the other dog.

Exactly! You have a gate, then another gate, then another gate if you need to, and if a dog that is not on lead is anywhere the last gate that will actually let them escape the property, you DON'T open that gate until the dog is secure. If that is not drummed into all staff right from the start then there is a big problem. Whatever else you do in a facility that takes responsibility for other people's dogs, you can't have them escape. And if it happens once, you make damn sure it doesn't happen again. So sad.

Mrs RB the training has to be done in a very controlled situation though, like within a class environment so that there aren't extra stressors around and both the subject dog handler and the "other dog" handler know what is going on and can act accordingly. You also need a suitable "other dog". The aim is to find that distance where the subject dog is engaged enough to show some reaction but not so close they are already over threshold. You need to work through the training in the controlled environment before you can apply it in 'real life' successfully. And the idea is for the DOG to learn to make the choice to remain calm and move away (or in the case of a frustrated greeter to remain calm no matter how close they get) because they see that it works for them, rather than seeing over-arousal/aggression/pulling/lunging/whatever and relying on the handler to make the decision to get them out of it as their only option

Oh wow, I didn't realise she had all that background sars, that really doesn't sound right! Even if the RSPCA whelping kennels were full I would have thought she'd still be better off there in a normal kennel than at DAS it's very strange. I wonder if she unfortunately fell through the gaps or whether this is a policy change. As sad as it is for her (and I hope something can be done) I do hope it's a one off.

They wouldn't have known she was pregnant when she arrived, with one pup they may not have realised until she was whelping, or close to it. I'm surprised she's at DAS actually, unwell dogs, pregnant mums and puppies under 6 months always used to go to RSPCA as they had better resources to care for them. There were a few early pregnancy cases while I was at RSPCA where desexing went ahead, but most of the pregnancies that came through while I was there were either surrendered or seized late in the pregnancy or there was one case where she hadn't been de sexed as she had another medical issue we were investigating (not affecting pregnancy) and it was only as that was close to being resolved that we realised her belly had suddenly popped! At RSPCA they certainly got good care and nutrition both pre- and post-natally and as much socialisation for the pups as possible, although it could never be as good as them being raised within a caring home As far as society being better than that, if only that were so! People can be horribly uncaring about their dogs, we had people saying you can just have mum but I want the puppies back (so they could sell them)' you can keep mum but I want one of the puppies (so I have a cute puppy instead of my old dog), brand new or very young litters dumped when so still need to be with mum, etc etc. So sad.

My aim with my dogs though is that they always have half an eye on what I'm doing and where I'm going so I don't have to pull them anywhere. They also know the cue "this way" so when I say that they are aware that I am changing direction. So they follow the direction I'm going whether they are right next to me or at a distance, and on or off lead. ETA I think we've built this because they know it is always worth keeping track of me because they never know when the opportunity to earn rewards, be it treats, praise, pats or whateve, will arise and they don't want to miss out.

I think it's Constructional Aggression Treatment... Yes, that's CAT. I haven't used it and would be VERY careful with it if I ever did.

With the BAT that I've done with shelter dogs and with Riley the aim is to have the dog under very minimal discomfort, just enough to arouse them before you give them the opportunity to make a good choice and then move away from what is stressing them. So we would start at a big distance with dog relaxed (on lead and flat collar) and move just close enough to the other dog for the subject dog to notice it, then they would usually do a bit of staring, ears forward etc and that's where we'd stop, wait for them to do something like avert their gaze a little or relax their ears, then a quick excited move away and behind something so the other dog is out of sight and the subject dog can then relax. If you got to the point where the dog was starting to bark or lunge then you'd gone too close for where you were at with the training. As the dog started to learn that it could control moving away from what was stressing it with behaviour other than showing aggression it would start to feel more confident getting closer and closer because it felt that it could move away when it needed to and they could then learn that actually the other dog wasn't really a threat, whereas previously they would be too worked up whenever they got close to register that, plus of course the other dog is more likely to react back if the subject dog was barking and lunging that if it was calm. So the idea is that the dog doesn't see the trainer as causing either the stress or the relief, it sees itself as having control of that.

BAT and CAT fall under -R, I've had good success with Riley's reactivity with BAT, somewhat modified, no training tools used, just you can move away from the thing (other dog) making you uncomfortable when you show any calm, desirable behaviour. It is a REALLY tricky quadrant though, and very difficult to explain without a demo.

You're doing good. I so wish I had a reason to come down there, I'd love to meet Justice and give him cuddles! Oh and you of course

Just pondering Snook, and writing as I think, but even if this as good as it gets, and he can't get past being scared of other dogs, as long as you can continue as you are with the majority of his time his spent 1. Happy with you at home 2.on play dates Paxxie 3. Having free run zoomies and sniffs whenever you CAN find the chance 4. Going to places he enjoys like The Groomery; and whatever other incidental things you do that he enjoys AND as long as he can recover once he is back in the car/back at home/somewhere he feels safe, then if he does spend some time feeling fearful of other dogs I don't think it's the end of the world, it's still a pretty good life for him for now. As you say, he is getting older and will increasingly slow down and need shorter periods of stimulation and energetic exercise as he gets older, so unless he deteriorates again (and I know he may unfortunately) I think you and he are doing ok :) And there's still every chance that he improves further. I was just thinking about it in the context of my Riley, who as I've mentioned before has some reactivity issues because he is in general fearful of other dogs (and humans and random things). I've been lucky that he was never too severe and that he has come a long way, and is fairly confident now, he isn't scared of small dogs and dogs he has gotten to know and doesn't feel threatened by, and he can be around other dogs that do worry him if there is a bit of distance, but I still see him looking very worried when certain dogs sniff him (which I try to avoid mostly but do let happen sometimes, because it happens when I don't mean it to sometimes and I want him to be prepared! I wouldn't do that in all cases of course, it's just that I believe Riley can handle it). I think it's ok for them to feel uncomfortable or scared sometimes, as long as they can recover and it is the minority of time. Of course it would be lovely if they only ever had positive experiences but that isn't the real world.