Simply Grand

Yes, I can see why you'd let those owners go, not wanting to attend training classes would be a red flag for me. If be thrilled to have a breeder organize (and pay for!) classes for a puppy I was getting and would organize it myself anyway otherwise. I think those early months, right from the beginning, are so so so important in setting a dog up for life.

I'm wonderig if maybe as a temporary means of containing her when she's not with you without crating her you could make a run of whatever size suits your yard out of star pickets (the long ones rammed deep into the ground) with galvanized mesh panels attached? That's what I did in my last place and what I will be doing here when I finally get my stuff (including the fence stuff) out of storage. It's not super secure like a proper run but might be enough to keep her out of trouble while you are working. Then do all the other suggestions - tough food toys, persevere with bones, put in things she can destroy etc and work with a behaviorist.

I want to go but I'm car-less so wouldn't be able to take the dogs...I'm thinking about it though. Anyone who goes, keep an eye out for Stacey Apples Photography, she did some great photos of Quinn the other week and should have photo books for sale at her stand that feature Quinn pics :)

Fantastic pics! I've had all of mine from babies and have lots of random phone pics but I wish I'd done proper then and now posed pics for the comparison

1 cat was dead form being hit by a car and was bought in to the pound, from memory by a member of the public the likelihood of it being alive is very remote OR are people saying that cat was alive also when put in the freezer..... The black cat clearly was alive when it was put in the freezer because it's still alive now. The council's explanation for that was that it bit the ranger, the ranger threw it around and knocked it unconcious, thought it was dead and put it in the freezer (again not in a body bag). As previously stated by several off us something is wrong there. No animal should be put in the freezer without definite confirmation that it is dead!!

And in a strange position and not in a bag.

Oh, good news Snook!

No me either. At best it's incredible negligence, at worst it's horrible cruelty.

And yep, the song's in my head now

:laugh: poor toasted Beagles!

actually - from a scientific view - it is, it might be hard so see because the roles are changed: the dogs apply this aversive stimulus to you now - they want the lollies and they learned that they get it by applying highest tension via the leash to reduce your behaviour (trying holding them back). if you want a better example where leash pulling is not aversive: e.g. dogs pulling a sledge. Way to change the argument so that you can "win". And you still aren't correct, because the dogs' pulling hard did not reduce Corvus's behaviour in holding them back.

Yep, Sars and Powerlegs you're right. I've been there, done that earning absolute minimum legal wage to do a difficult job, along with my colleagues, as our full time income trying to keep a roof over our heads, and that doesn't make it ok to throw a kitten around or put an animal in a freezer without definitively confirming it is dead. And yes, volunteers are absolutely invaluable when it comes to animal welfare. Yes I agree, and have stated before that sometimes some speak out without a full understanding of what they are seeing but, as I have also said before, if organizations cannot provide an honest answer they are comfortable with then something is wrong. And that isn't the fault of volunteers.

Thanks for posting sars. Very simplistic solution that doesn't actually solve the problem - why not engage and educate the public, volunteers and staff for a start. There's so much good stuff that can be done! My other concern is ranger training. I cannot envisage a scenario where a scared and cornered kitten capable of inflicting such a bite wasn't giving off warning signals. The whole incident could have been avoided with a better understanding of feline behaviour. Definitely, training regarding animal handling and behaviour, procedures that prevent inappropriately trained or prepared people from handling certain animals and I'd also suggest aptitude assessment. When cats bite they bite hard, when they are distressed and scratch, they scratch hard. A tooth going through skin is not unusual in a cat bite and if a person's response to that is to throw a kitten around to the point of (as I said before) knocking it unconscious to the point of it appearing dead, then they should not be handling kittens/cats in a professional capacity. Plus, there is an issue if any animal, whether euthanised, died of injury, died of illness or died of unknown causes is placed in a freezer without a verification that it is actually dead. It is quite apparent when an animal's heart, breathing, circulation and brain function have completely stopped and for checking that not to be a vital step in disposing of bodies is not acceptable. I also still find it very strange that both the kittens discussed in this coverage were in the freezer not in a body bag.

Well, gee, Willem. You totally nailed it, there, and really burned me in the process. Excuse me while I rethink everything I thought I knew about dog training. I'll be in my ivory tower playing checkers with pigeons. Willem, I seem to recall that you did a fair bit of work making really rewarding for your girl to focus on you and respond to your cues (commands) in the face of distractions, and rewarded a loose lead as well. Crazy walking involves a lot of focus on handler work, which you had built up a reward history for, so I wonder whether that contributed to her stopping pulling as much as, or even moreso than, the punishment aspect of the pressure of the lead. Border Collies do tend to find engagement with their handler quite intrinsically rewarding.

Gosh they're funny. Quinn gets all excited whenever we walk past certain house up the road because she said hello to a cat there ONCE :laugh: She loves cats.

This is were I think the terminology becomes confusing. People across the whole world of dog training use different words and mean different things. Terms like aversive, correction, force, interuption are all used and can mean different things to different people. That's why I like the simplicity of focusing on does the behaviour increase or decrease, and what is the dog's emotional response. I personally think (and my thoughts do change as I learn and reflect more) that all of those things - flat/martingale collars, harnesses, head collars, prong collars, e collars - are tools that provide a handler with different levels of physical control over a dog IN ORDER FOR the handler to effectively deliver the reward or punisher needed to effectively change behaviour. I believe that the tool that delivers the lowest level of intervention needed for that particular dog is what should be used. ETA Huski said it much more simply than I did!

The quadrants and the terminology used in them weren't developed to be used as training methodologies, they were developed based on observation and experimentation to explain animal (including human) learning and behaviour. They didn't come about by someone saying "how can I get a dog to do what I want them to do?", they came about when scientists observed what animals do actually do when put into situations and given the option to do what they would. I think it's important to understand that in this debate, so saying certain quadrants should not be used or are not effective in dogs training, or dog learning really, is not accurate. The fact is animals, including humans, are influenced by all four quadrants all the time, whether someone is actually trying to teach something specific or whether we are just living in our environment. Also, because the quadrants were developed based on observing how behaviours come about, not every single thing fits neatly into one of the boxes. Some things are just...things, not a punishment or a reinforcement or a positive or a negative. So when my dog sits and looks out the window, as she sometimes does, it doesn't fit into a quadrant, it's just neutral. It's a behaviour she already knows, it's not increasing or decreasing, it's just a thing she does sometimes, therefore by definition it isn't in any of the quadrants. ETA same with putting a leash on a dog. It is not a case of every time we put one on we are applying negative punishment. If the dog is standing or sitting or walking as they would be whether or not the leash was on, then the leash isn't in any of the quadrants, it's just there.

Oh I was also going to say, Quinn has a Kong Quest toy that I put half a handful of full size Goodos/fake Woolies brand version into and it takes her aaaages to get them all out, she mainly lies still and licks/mouths/paws at it to get at them and seems to tire put her brain a bit, it's definitely the food toy that takes her the longest to finish. Could be helpful for Justice when he can't exercise. http://www.google.com.au/search?q=kong+quest+wishbone&client=safari&hl=en&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj80630qvfLAhVoJ6YKHccWBSEQ_AUIBigB#mhpiv=1

Something I read said that dogs respond well to classical or "smooth jazz" (something like that) music. Definitely something instrumental, fairly slow, but still happy and calm I guess? I wonder if we have any musicians on DOL who could suggest some options. It's funny because what got me thinking about was that when I was younger and going through a tough time emotionally I used to play videos of back to back Simpsons episodes when I went to bed to distract me from thinking and keeping myself awake, and I accidentally conditioned myself to fall asleep to it, so I'd fall asleep literally whenever it come on, even if it was the middle of the day and I wasn't tired :laugh: I was thinking you could have the music on your phone to use whenever you needed it and I was even thinking about a Bondi Vet episode I think it was where they put head phones on a dog and played skate boards sounds to it to counter condition reacting to them. That may be going a step to far, but it's a thought :laugh:

Some Gold Coast people I know are big fans of Craig A. Murray. I've seen a demo of their normal training classes and they looked fine, from what I've heard the people who've worked with him say I get the impression he approaches things from old be the pack leader point of view, as in don't let them walk out in front of you or sleep on the bed or they will think they are the pack leader, not you, but that kind of approach to training seems to work well for some dog owners, and the people I know who put their dog into residential training with him were very happy with the results. http://www.dogschool.com.au/

Hey Snook, I was thinking about Justice the other day as I was walking home from the train lol... Bear in mind, these are just thoughts I had, not actual advice and may not be appropriate, I'd certainly discuss with your VB, Corvus, maybe the other trainer you were considering consulting if you were inclined to try them. First I was thinking about his shutting down even in the car at the park when he sees another dog, I wonder what would happen if you just waited him out? Along the lines of flooding really but in what is actually a very safe environment (the car) even though he doesn't perceive it as that. So if you pull up at a quiet time but when there are dogs around, park at a distance where the car is unlikely to be approached but where he can see the other dogs, then just sit and read a book or something in the car with him. So rather than trying to keep him under threshold and counter-condition but finding he is too stressed, let him experience the stress and (hopefully) get through it. My thought being there is only so long an animal can physically sustain a state of immense stress, and his body may (MAY) end up forcing itself to relax again when nothing bad actually happens. Then if he can get to that point in the car again you might be able to get the counter-conditioning going again. Then I started thinking about playing soothing music in the car to try and calm him, and how you were talking about trying to train a "calm" type cue on the Volatile dogs page. I wonder if you could classically condition a calm response to a particular piece of music? So something like whenever he starts to wind down/relax/fall asleep at home you play the same piece of soothing music so he builds an association with that music and being relaxed, then play the music when he is starting to get stressed to calm him down again. Obviously it would have to be strongly conditioned at the beginning in order to overcome his stress, but I have read stuff about using music to calm stressed dogs eg for separation anxiety when home alone, and I would think a piece of music might get through to his stressed brain more than a word cue or something.

Cuuuuute puppy!! :D

Yes PL, two kittens. One was found dead (the one that appeared to have struggled and bled) and the other, the black one pictured, was found still alive in the freezer. The black one is the one the council say rangers thought was dead when it was put in the freezer.

Oh gorgeous little girl!

And I just read this on the SMH website: http://m.smh.com.au/environment/animals/cats-found-in-freezer-at-wagga-wagga-city-council-animal-shelter-20160330-gnuqdn " In a letter from the council, Ms Oakman was told that a ranger had been "severely bitten" by the kitten while removing it from its cage, adding: "Unfortunately in his attempt to free himself, the cat was accidentally knocked out and believed to be deceased and therefore placed in the freezer." " I find that fairly unacceptable as well. The ranger's response to a bite from a kitten is to throw it around so badly it is knocked unconscious to the point of appearing dead and then rather than verifying it is dead (presumably it's heart was still beating!!) they just put it in the freezer not in a body bag??