Simply Grand

it is not about punishing the dog (any training, with or without punishment would be the responsibility of the owner), but about self-defense, and that does - IMHO - justifies any aversives if required. If the guy is working on this site, he doesn't have to accept that a dogs is humping him if he doesn't want it. If the owner doesn't respond to the complaints, the next time the dog is humping the guy - and the guy can't help himself otherwise - give the dog a good dose of pepper spray into the mouth and the guy won't see the dog again. It might be a big drawback for the future training of the dog, but that's the responsibility of the owner, not the victim that just defended himself. I didn't even read this comment of yours before Willem but I can't believe you are advocating pepper spraying the dog in the mouth in this situation. First, presumably if the boss doesn't know about this issue the owners don't either and therefore haven't even had a chance to address it, secondly pepper spraying a dog, particularly in its own home could easily end up in an animal cruelty charge (if someone did that to mine without alerting me that the dog was behaving inappropriately, unless they were in the middle of being seriously attacked, I'd be pursuing it hard and sueing if possible), thirdly I don't think pepper spray is legal for civilians so there's the risk of charges for that, fourthly, pepper spray in the mouth could do a whole lot more than "set back the dog's training", it could kill it if the throat swelled and prevented breathing, and finally what a great way to escalate the situation with a dog already showing aggression. Fortunately ellz and son are far to sensible to listen to such a dumb idea.

Good on him ellz. I really hope his boss is understanding and responsive. If I was his boss I'd be thrilled to have an apprentice sensible enough to identify serious OH&S issues and raise them in a calm and professional manner.

No, it is helpful! Getting anyone else's thoughts helps me clarify what I think. And so many people don't really understand serious behaviour issues in dogs and just dismiss it as "oh they'll be fine" so it's good hearing from people who take it seriously.

Ah, I see, I wasn't sure about the timeline of Thistle's issues, such a shame the attack set her back Full disclosure will be an absolute given, even if it hinders her getting adopted, which it will, but there's no way I'd try and hide or down play her issues. I actually haven't had anyone over to the house since Molly has been here, you've reminded me that I wanted to test that with her. She guards the car but she spent six months living in a car with her owner when they lost their house before she was seized and I'm sure some scary stuff happened so I'm not surprised about that. It's really tricky being in this in-between position of knowing the dog better than anyone else but not actually being her owner, I know if it was my dog and I couldn't keep her (which if she had been and started trying to kill my other dogs I wouldn't) I wouldn't rehome her, she'd be PTS, but given that as a rescue we've basically committed to rehoming her it's tricky. And the other thing is if she was my only dog and she developed these issues there's no way I'd contemplate euthanasia because I know I personally could and would commit to manageing her. Argh

Hey Thistle, can I ask about your experience when you adopted Thistle? I'm sure you've gone through it before but I thought of you because my current foster Molly reminds me of Thistle and I'm torn about whether it is responsible to rehome her when I know she has fear aggression issues with humans as well as dog aggression, which I think stems from discomfort but not necessarily fear. Molly is very manageable for someone who knows what they are doing and doesn't take chances, and she can be around people and other dogs with me as long as I keep on the ball and manage her. She is super responsive to what I tell her to do and but she worries me because if something goes wrong with another dog she would do damage (she has also shown serious prey drive towards small dogs and cats) and particularly worrying is that although her aggression towards humans is pretty clearly fear driven and only comes out when she feels threatened, she moves towards the threat growling, lunging and snapping, which makes me fairly confident that she would be quite quick to bite a person in certain situations. I'd be less concerned if she tried to move away, even with the snapping and lunging if the threat continued. So my question is, how much did you know about Thistle's issues when you took her on? I know it's a tricky question but in the same situation again would you take on the challenge? Do you think it's fair for a rescue group to rehome a dog they know has these issues, even with full disclosure? I'm also concerned because I think the chances of finding an owner as responsible as you guys all are is pretty slim and I can just imagine how awful is feel if I rehomed her then found out something had gone wrong and she'd killed someone's dog or injured a person The rescue group's advice on next step is meds (Prozac) following a consult with a VB, which I don't have a problem with in general, and will definitely try, but given that she is still highly responsive to me when she's exhibiting these behaviours, not shut down with anxiety or in some kind of aggressive "red zone" I'm not sure how beneficial that will be. Anyone else's thoughts very welcome too! Oh, and I can't keep her, even if I wanted to as she and my dogs hate each other and have to be completely separated, with Molly attempting to kill (IMO) both of my small dogs when we've had slips. Luckily I've been right there and able to strangle her with her collar before she did any serious damage ETA despite all that she is absolutely beautiful with me, I trust her completely not to hurt someone she trusts and in many ways is very easy to live with around the house, it's just the outside world that is a problem.

...so you think the tradie who was attacked by the 3 dogs should have ask the owner first whether it is ok that he defend himself?....whether it is biting or humping, both are not acceptable behaviours, and as long as there is no trespassing, IMO anyone has the right to defend himself. No but that's a perfect example of why bosses need to require dogs be contained or restrained when their crews are on site, so they aren't risking that happening!!

What Tara & Sam says. I think it's his only option. You cannot go into someone else's house in this situation and start using aversives, or even giving food or using training techniques without the owner's permission. Even though the owner is being an irresponsible idiot. Not to mention messing around with trying techniques with a dog that has already tried to bite is asking for your son to get hurt

I think actually quite often people do call a particular dog a "staffy" or a "pit bull" or a "swf" or an "oodle" or whatever because they don't like them. It is widely known that people are notoriously bad at identifying breeds and show bias (no I don't have any studies to link). So I don't think dismissing what Sars and BBL are saying is warranted. However in this case, where they were trying to identify particular dogs to find them I think saying "Staffordshire x" was probably the most effective way of finding them. ETA having said that, average joe is probably always going to be uninformed about dog breeds, behaviour, training and everything else, so the main thing I think we can do is ensure that our own dogs don't ever act in a way that makes people think negatively about them

Ugh, so scary! There's nothing worse than encountering an unfriendly off lead dog when you're walking. Probably a good thing that Marley didn't fight back otherwise things may have escalated further. It's totally natural to be shaky (and angry!) about it, the adrenaline really gets pumping in those situations. Try not to worry too much about it setting you back, there is nothing you can do about it now except to move forward, avoid walking past that house from now and and try and remain relaxed next time so Marley doesn't pick up on your tension. I'd say get back out tomorrow (as long as Marley seems her usual self) and do a short walk ending on a good note if you can, so both of you feel a bit more relaxed the next time.

She's 9 Thistle! Which makes it even more amazing that her brother could lift her above his head. Also makes me think it's lucky they didn't go for a younger child where they could more easily have reached the neck and head.

I would. Although I'd like to think I'd be a bit more careful about keeping my dogs and myself out of a situation like that.

Wow, that's scary. Serious attack and thank god the brother was there and could lift her. Sounds like the only penalty for the owner can be a fine And the dogs being destroyed but given the woman's apparent unwillingness to manage them that has to be done

read one lady with an Australian shepherd got back from that so called dna breed testing , that he had labrador, rottie and boxer the 3rd breed. since her dog was from pure pedigree parents I don't think any of those breeds ever contributed to the Australian shepherd somehow? Didn't they arrive in America with a shipload of sheep from Australia? hence the "Australian" bit to their name? German Coolies have been here in the land of oz for over 100 years and they too got their name because they arrived on our sunburnt shores along with a shipment of sheep from, have you guessed it? Germany old man. they are a feature out Tarana and Bathurst way. Hondo Gratton grew up on a property where the only working dogs were Coolies n gee they sure look like dare I say it? Nope better not eh. Huh? But anyway, RSA has an Australian Terrier, not an Australian Shepherd. Being Aussies, of course we abbreviate both to "Aussie" ????

It's funny, my Quinn is a girl, and I don't even know where the name came from, it's only since having her that people have made suggestions about it, including The Mighty Quinn, and an Eskimo, or is that the same one?? It was just when I knew I wanted an Aussie Shepherd it would be a blue merle female named Quinn...and it suits her down to the ground, and I adore her. Embarrassingly, the song I associate with her is "I knew I Loved You Before I Met You" by Savage Garden

Oh and with breeds that look similar to other breeds - what's the difference? Another Aussie owner and I had a frustrating conversation the other day with a lady who knew that Aussie Shepherd, Border Collie and Coolie are all different breeds and could recognise which was which, but kept asking us what the difference is. The difference is they are different breeds, that's the difference!!

Isn't it funny how people will argue when you say a dog is a pure breed they haven't heard of, saying you've been tricked, yet when you try to say a dog is a mix/mutt/big black dog they insist on assigning a breed of some sort to it. Me: yes I'm sure Australian Shepherd is a real breed, no, I have no idea what the foster dog is, she's a big black dog.

My toy poodle x Maltese was sensitive to beef when he was younger, it would make him itchy (ears and face). He outgrew it thankfully, but another food element to consider. My other though was could it have become habitual or a stress response? Have there been any changes in the household or her routine since the scratching started up again?

Definitely true. Health test results of parents are worth their weight in gold IMO, and a responsible breeder will provide them as a matter of course.

Unfortunately no way to be sure then, you would just have to trust what they tell you. You could ask if the parents have pedigree papers that you could view to help reassure you, the pups may not be coming with papers as the breeder is not a registered breeder and therefore can't register pups, and/or the parents are not on the main register that allows breeding so pups can't be registered (parents could still be registered pure breeds on the limit register though).

Hi Alister :) Are the parents registered ANKC Dachsunds? And will the pups be registred and come with a registration certificate? If so, you are safe to assume pups are pure, if not, anyone's guess I'm afraid.

I think the most useful thing YOU can learn as a responsible dog owner is don't be afraid to manage other people's dogs in order to keep yours safe. Try to be calm and polite but never be afraid to position yourself in front of your puppy as a dog approaches, steer you and your pup away or the other dog away, talk to the other dog so it focuses on you instead of your puppy, and even if you have to, physically steer other dogs away by the collar. So that your puppy can interact with appropriate dogs, stand back and observe first and see how certain dogs and owners behave, if you see some that are being polite and appropriate (dog AND owner) see if you can approach and say hello. I also find that my dogs sometimes respond better if I get them to focus on me for some training as other dogs approach (as long as they are just intrusive, not aggressive), then my dogs are not interesting for the other dog because they are not focusing on it, and I can "stare pointedly" at the other owner until they move their dog away.

All good, thanks for reading Sars :)

Perse, it's mainly about the morality/ethics of it for me I suppose. The really tricky part Something I am considering lately in light of a certain foster dog.

I think laws (council or otherwise) do play some role in the discussion though. Trouble is they are different everywhere. But it's relevant when we are considering whether a dog that WILL kill out of prey drive is ok whereas a dog that WILL kill out of dog aggression isn't. It's tricky, because to me it seems like Maddy has done pretty much everything she can to prevent a small dog getting into her yard, although it is not fail safe. However if someone had a dog that they knew would kill another dog, regardless of size, out of dog aggression would we expect them to do more than that and say it was their fault if their dog killed a similar size dog in their own yard? ETA posting at the same time Maddy so wrote this without seeing your most recent comment.

Perse, that's an interesting consideration. I guess I view the difference as being between dogs that show aggression to various types of dogs and those that are only interested in small fluffy "prey looking" dogs. I do notice a different in interest levels with some dogs towards my small light coloured poodle x and my only slightly larger Sheltie. Not saying it's necessarily prey drive and that the dogs want to kill the poodle x, but often dogs will take quite an interest in him and follow him around sniffing intently (yes I intervene) and yet respond to the Sheltie like they do to all the other dogs. I assume it's because the Sheltie looks more "dog like" and the poodle x looks more like a prey animal or toy. It isn't behaviour based either as the poodle x has much better dog manners than the Sheltie. ETA - I'm not asking from the perspective of a concerned small dog owner, by the way, or implying that I don't think people having prey driven dogs as pets is ok! I really don't know what I think about it and am trying to make up my mind.