Very perceptive MM - I didn't notice the two point 2's.
The issue I have with Main/Limited register is this.
As you know Childbride and I always try to "run on" the best two/three babies from our litters for ourselves.
That way we keep the best for our show team or to supply for "show puppy" orders.
All of the other babies are placed on the Limited register - because in our opinion they are not show quality.
It's not that they aren't high quality youngsters - just that they don't meet our high standards/hurdle rates.
But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool.
Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450.
Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding .
A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye.
Far too many unsuspecting puppy buyers purchase inferior quality puppies on main register in the mistaken belief that they are of show quality.
And when they fail miseraby in the early Baby / Minor classes these people disappear never to be seen again.
Or - as you suggest MM - they reappear two years later in the litter registration listings.
And sometimes even the most experienced of us can and do make mistakes.
I had a recent experience with some newbie clients - all they wanted was a Black, Male PET quality puppy.
I had one available and away they went - nice puppy but a bit too overdone for a show puppy IMO.
At 12 months of age these people expressed a desire to show the dog.
As I'd predicted the dog was too strong in head, quite a dominant temperament and not enough backend.
I tried to discourage them on at least 3 different occassions but they wouldn't let up and eventually I gave in.
I signed the document to transfer the dog from Limited to Main register and guess what happened.
The dog has been belted every time it has been entered in an Open show (and deservedly so too).
Now I'm the one copping the "criticism" for selling these people a dog that's not of "show quality".
If these clients had been "up front" with me in the first place I would have ensured they received a "show quality" puppy.
So should I have refused to transfer the dog from Limited onto Main Register?
Should I have simply ignored their requests entirely and stood my ground?
Or did I do the right thing by allowing these people to experience first hand just how hard it is to exhibit a mediocre quality Lab?
Had I not relented the CCCQ would have missed out on yet another membership, as would the LRCQ.
And just maybe these people will get the message, book a show quality youngster in the future and become dedicated long term Lab enthusiasts.
I'd be interested to hear other opinions please - I've beaten myself up enough about this particular incident.
And just in closing MM - I understand how difficult it must seem at times trying to get reliable advice.
But there is nothing more frustrating when one's advice is eagerly sought after and it is provided openly and honestly.
And in the very next breath the newbie goes and does the complete bloody opposite - and guess what?
When things do go wrong who do they turn to for a shoulder to cry on?
The original breeder they sought advice from in the first place - sigh.
Mentoring implies a two-way street in my mind.
It suggests to me that a new exhibitor/breeder will commit to supporting an experienced breeder in such a way soas to serve an "apprenticeship".
By that I mean - to help and assist with handling the dogs and "learning the ropes" until a suitable show puppy becomes available.
And it also suggests that the breeder will take a chance on a "newbie" in the hope that they eventually develop the necessary smarts.
Far too many are in it for a quick fix IMO.
And there are also significant numbers of what I describe as "back door bandits" - these are people who won't front up and place an order for a top quality puppy directly - they lurk in the shadows and "aquire" dogs and bitches from particular bloodlines through the "backdoor".
They won't wait, don't want to "waste time" learning - they've got to have something RIGHT NOW.
And in so doing they again end up with something which is mediocre at best and then they wonder why they never make any headway.
Anyway - I've had enough of a vent - time to sit back now and wait for the fallout.
I guess it's time for some of the newbies to explain the other side of things. Firstly it's nice to know that very experienced breeders can and do make mistakes. Taking a limited dog up onto main is a difficult decision, and having the owner of a limited dog pestering also causes pressure. I can see why you put the dog up on main for them. Encouraging new people is very important, keeping them involved is even harder. You said those people didn't win when they exhibited at open shows, have they continued on in champ shows since experiencing defeat? Are they sticking around waiting for a better show prospect? Or have you lost them already anyway?
There are many issues that newbies face - the first being finding a breeder who will be open and honest with them. Many breeders will say anything to get a brand-newbie to buy their puppies, and of course brand-newbies don't know where to begin when entering a breed - websites certainly help, but those who have the flashy websites look better than those that don't. DOL has also been helpful as those that are winning in the ring stand out better. However what DOL does not demonstrate is that certain areas of the country have much stiffer competition and if you happen to live in one of those areas even a very nice first show dog is not going to do well. On the flip side some dogs in remote areas look like super champions when in fact they are just the best of a bad bunch.
Then brand-newbie does stumble onto a really good breeder with genuinley successful dogs and finds that either they need to wait in line for a very long time, or they will not be given a good dog as that breeder does not know them. So brand-newbie settles for what they can get. They don't wait two years for a show puppy from the best of the best because they have researched for several months, are keen and ready to begin, their circumstances suit in the now and the passion to get out there and go for it takes over. The very enthusiastic newbie with their not so crash hot show dog is then going week after week after week and losing and losing and losing. This is not a very nice or encouraging experience. It does not help when (in all honest truth here) that face judging does occur. Poor newbie may have the best dog on the day and lose to a dog that everyone knows is not a winner.
If the newbie is lucky they will meet the right people who will encourage them along. Big winners are intimidating for some newbies - when you first go to a dog show they look so professional, and have a look about them that says; don't approach I'm important, what's more dog showing moves very quickly and for those that don't yet understand the judging process it is very hard to follow.
After a little while newbie develops their own perspective on what 'type' (make and model!) of dog they prefer, and after being beaten for so long the urge to try again to buy a winner becomes stronger. In the 'now-generation' it is very difficult to wait. In my experience I contacted the best breeder of the type I was after. I put in my order a year in advance. I was told there were litters coming and the prospect looked good. Then it all fell through, I contacted them several times and they would not respond. I had wasted a year of enthusiasm waiting. So I did the 'backdoor' thing and tried my luck on buying the lines I wanted. It was a gamble, but not a regrettable one. Let's face it, we all wanna win, and while the experienced exhibitors will advise in their wise ways that there is only One winner on the day, the newbie replies - Yes there is, but that one winner is usually you!
The other small issue with waiting on the experienced breeder / mentor to supply newbie with a 'good show dog' is that most of those breeders will retain the best puppies for themselves. That means newbie will always get second pick and have to show second pick against first picks. I will fall over the day that a highly successful breeder takes the chance and hands complete ownership of a pick puppy over to a newbie. So, newbie starts thinking, If I can't buy a top dog, I'm going to have to breed one. In this process newbie faces many more challenges and makes many many mistakes. But it is a learning process and if newbie survives it and still wants to keep going, chances are they are in it for the long haul.
I guess for many newbies it is all too much and they give up. For the past few years I have been involved it has been a hard road with many disappointments, a few BIG mistakes, a growing hole in my finacial pocket, but some very good moments too. Each year seems to get a bit better. The passion is still there, the desire to win gets stronger and the long term plan to breed my own winners is waiting (and waiting) in the wings. I have spent the last year avoiding going through backdoors and have spent my time really learning and understanding the types of dogs I want to eventually own, and thus I wait again, and hopefully a new prospect will pan out next year. My journey has been helped by the support of a few very experienced exhibitors and breeders, both within the breed and slightly abroad. I've still stuffed up under the best of guidance - I guess that's inevitable - but I'll never make the same mistakes again!
For all those newbies out there, hang in there, there is nothing like living the experience and going for the ride to gear you up for a successful future. It also teaches you humility and the successes you do experience are so much sweeter!!
