Pillow

Thank-you to everyone, who by your responses have helped me work through a very emotional situation. I don't want to sound like I was making too much of it but it is important to me how I breed, why I do and just generally in life people's feelings are important to me. I am on the downside years and take responsibility for what I do. To maybe put closure to the thread: I am so grateful for the assistance you all have given me. This has been a heartbreaking situation I have never experienced before. It appears from my vet's viewpoint and what I have read I may be lucky in that regard. I will not breed these two again. I will call the owner's to-morrow and invite myself for a cuppa. Talk and listen. Talk about the things I discussed with the vet and my suggestions he agreed he would talk about with the owners of the pup when they came in for the first treatment. Hand over the purchase price in cash as a contribution to treatment. Be very happy to bring the little girl home if they prefer. Be available to talk about how things are going as time goes on. I can sleep well tonight knowing and believing I gave it my best. Thank-you every-one.

There's a combined UK universities animal health group ... so a reliable source. http://www.ufaw.org.uk/SHOULDEROSTEOCHONDROSISBULLTERRIER.php (their site deals with it in each breed separately, it's not saying only found in BT's). They say that OCD is found in large & giant breeds, but some smaller, too. Most importantly: It is likely that affected puppies can be born to unaffected parents (Hazelwinkel & Nap 2009). Detecting carriers - those which carry and may pass on the gene(s) but which do not show signs of the disease themselves - is not currently possible. As affected puppies can be born to unaffected parents ... and there's no present way of detecting carriers, there was no way you could prevent it occurring. That group also says that, while it seems genes are implicated, the gene or combination of genes associated with OCD hasn't been identified. The genes responsible have yet to be determined. Also, on another site, a Veterinary Radiologist points to something environmental perhaps triggering an underlying predisposition: With OCD of the shoulder, lameness generally first occurs between 4 and 9 months and may be associated with a fall or accident playing with another dog. Lateral radiographs of the shoulder will reveal a flattening of the humeral head. http://www.aztec-net.com/~lofrancokuvasz/health.html I can't see how you could've done anything to prevent it ... given there's no screening possible for carriers & unaffected dogs can produce an affected puppy & an environmental incident may be necessary to trigger it. The way you're searching out information about the disorder shows you're a decent, caring breeder. That is great information. Thank-you also for your comment Mita, I appreciate it.

Yes I agree with you Megan. It is why I immediately went to "my responsibility". I do my testing but some still don't as it is not required. There was a time when you couldn't test. There are dogs back in my lines and every ones else's who we don't know if they were carriers of this that or the other. Our knowledge of them is based on what was and becomes apparent. I feel responsible in some way and not because I haven't done the right thing. I bred a pup that has a diagnosis of OCD. There is a lot of information and differing opinion, in studies, amongst vets and breeders and owners. I am not convinced that I shouldn't take responsibility because I started breeding the breed I have now when testing for anything was never a consideration. I did it anyway. I did it because I hoped to avoid what I am feeling right now. I hoped no one who bought a pup from me would have to feel like they do. I agree Megan, genetics is a bitch.

as someone who has bought a "lemon" in the past, resulting in that dog being PTS at 20 months old, all I wanted was the above. I understand the heartache too of a pup being PTS at close to 6 months. I bought her from an interstate breeder who I hadn't met until I flew to pick up my pup. We did the round of vets and when 2 specialists told me there was no real hope for her, I made the decision to PTS. The breeder of the pup is a much loved friend today. Thank-you for the sad reminder of how that feels (meaning in a good way). I don't lack empathy which is why I am in shock and great sadness as to how to do the right thing by the owner. I appreciate your thoughts Rebanne, it is a reminder for me to show the empathy not just feel it.

Thanks for your response regarding recovery not being hampered by going the management method first. I am encouraged by that. I have sold 3 pups into this family group over the years and a fourth pup has been requested. In view of that I take it that my standing has been a good one. They are good and responsible people. The (adult)son said after they received the diagnosis his mother had said to him to call me as I would take the pup back. I appreciate your feedback DC.

The decision is a difficult one and I understand your about admission. I appreciate your thoughts Juice.

I don't think it comes down to ethics. You did the tests, thats ethics, what more could you have done? Yes I have always done the testing and tested for other things that no-else considers necessary to test for. There is nothing more I could have done. I didn't breed without a great deal of thought. I have always said to those in my breed who think I test unnecessarily: there is no point in saying it's never been a problem, when in 20 years time how would I know, if I don't have the test results to support that. I have never had a problem with a pup and think I am in shock. I feel for the owner.

No I do not believe you are responsible in any way. Sh!t happens. You are dealing with a living creature. You have done the right thing by x-raying the parents etc. Sometimes life just throws us a curve ball and everyone has to deal with it. If it makes you feel better you could refund the purchase price but make it clear it is not an admitance of guilt nor that you are going to help out any more financially. The owners have to accept these things can just happen. You also do not know if the enviroment contributed to the problem. Life just sucks sometimes and everybody has to just get on with it. Thanks Rebanne. I had thought of refunding the purchase price as a way to help with treatment. What did have me thinking though was that if this treatment wasn't successful I may be expected to continue to pay for any further requirements done the track. So I am deliberating between what may an ethical decision or a foolish one. I appreciate your thoughts.

Sounds positive then DC. This little one has it in her elbow. I have seen the x-rays (The owner says it's in her knee. He is upset.) She is starting her 4 X cartrophen shots this week and is been crated. I am trying to read a lot and ask questions of others. It seems early diagnosis, and treatment is a real plus. If the management is successful that's great. If it's not successful could it be considered that doing the op immediately would have been a better solution? Please don't forget my dilemma. Am I responsible in any way? As I said I have offered full refund and pup return. They don't want to return the pup. Should I offer to assist financially with treatment?

Thank-you Aloysha. I will read it.

Yes, Juice. It's why I mentioned it and the older girl as well. It certainly could be a possibility.

I would be grateful if you are able to find the article Aloysha. I can account for all the pups from this mating and a previous litter 3 years ago. I can account for many of the pups sired by the dad with another bitch. I can account for the pups in a litter with this mum to another dog. Can account for all siblings of the sire. Can account for some of the siblings of grandma and some for grandfather.

Wow, that is fantastic news. I asked the vet what the prognosis was given his recommendation for treatment. He said "good, not great".

Thanks Rebanne. Chip. Vet is reluctant to suggest op until other methods, 4 X injections and 6 week crating. The owners will be in for the first injection next week. He will ask would they like to see specialist.