dazla

Angels Eyes is not legal- the active ingredient tylosin is a class 4 drug in Australia, ie prescription only. I am not aware of any country where Angels eyes is legal. AFAIK Tylosin tartrate is not approved for dog use anywhere in the world. It is allowed to be prescribed however under the cascading Rule/ Off Label. Angels Eyes does not kill yeast but it can help to prevent the creation of specific yeasts by killing certain bacteria. By the same token it might actively promote the growth of other yeasts.

Erm... Why would a washing machine smell of urine??? taken from Ebay sellers page Urine smells and stains - Half a cup of BA in with your wash to rid clothing/bedding of urine smells and stains Thanks

Erm... Why would a washing machine smell of urine???

If it is just the legs then it might be easier to stop him licking his legs- there are products that you spray on that taste yucky. In time he will realise that leg licking when bored has negative consequences. Be warned that the main problem with the sprays is that if you stroke the fur and forget to wash your hands you will tranfer the foul taste to your hands... Hopefully you wont need to use the sprays for long. They wont do anything for the existing stains but they will hopefully prevent the staining in the first place. Oop didn't see your post. I don't particularly notice that he licks too much.. Could be wrong, maybe he's licking when I'm not watching. I'm not sure what to spray on him to stop the licking, my mother is afraid that everything has chemicals in them and it might hurt him. Would lemon juice be a good idea? We have a lemon and a grapefruit tree in the backyard and I heard dogs don't like citrus (or was that chickens? ). Lemon juice will help to lighten the fur and may discourage licking. I don't think that it is acidic enough to hurt the fur/skin if used on its own but I cannot be sure. There are lots of natural yucky sprays out there if the lemons don't work. eg http://www.petsplus.com.au/pet-shop.asp?id=1868 It is probably a good idea to address any potential licking before using boric acid, otherwise your dog might ingest it. I have read that it is generally as toxic as table salt in low doses. Many dogs lick because of boredom so it likely that he wont do it when people are around. People=entertainment.

Is this the same thing? I couldn't tell because it said Boric and not Boracic, but it's what came up when I typed in Boracic, so I thought it might be the same thing?? yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boric_acid

If it is just the legs then it might be easier to stop him licking his legs- there are products that you spray on that taste yucky. In time he will realise that leg licking when bored has negative consequences. Be warned that the main problem with the sprays is that if you stroke the fur and forget to wash your hands you will tranfer the foul taste to your hands... Hopefully you wont need to use the sprays for long. They wont do anything for the existing stains but they will hopefully prevent the staining in the first place.

For anyone selling or using any of the antibiotic based products, eg Angels Eyes. I hope that this post will provide proof that it is illegal to do so. http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/213496-how-to-remove-staining-on-white-dogs/page__view__findpost__p__5376156

Sorry DJU Here are some pro-active steps you could take to reduce the incidence of staining: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/220444-tear-stains/page__view__findpost__p__5362724 As mentioned elsewhere you can use boric acid to kill the bacteria. There are a number of diy pastes you can make- I would recommend against any with hydrogen peroxide- look for the ones with boric acid and natural bleaching agents such as lemon juice or vinegar.

Ok, so I have taken flak from some fellow forum members who work on the assumption that anything openly available must by definition be legal to sell/purchase/use. Unfortunately that is not always the case. There are times when honest people are tricked by unscrupulous manufacturers into selling and using illegal products. Angels Eyes is an example of a product that may or may not be legal to manufacture but is definitely illegal to sell. As I said before- It is pretty much illegal throughout the whole world, eg the USA, Canada, the EU, NZ and Australia. It took a bit of digging but here is a government document that lists tylosin, the active ingredient in Angels Eyes, as a schedule 4 poison/drug, ie a Prescription Only Medicine. The rules seem to apply to both Australia and New Zealand post harmonisation. http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/0/3BBB39C4645284BCCA2574A6001C711F/$file/PoisonsStandard2008.pdf The document- dated 2008- and still current law- is rather lengthy but impressively comprehensive. It should serve as a warning to anyone using it or selling it. The legal status of any product containing tylosin (regardless of the amount) is covered in the following excerpt from page 149- TYLOSIN (is a shedule 4 drug) except: (a) when included in Schedule 5; (b) in animal feeds containing 50 mg/kg or less of antibiotic substances: (i) for growth promotion; (ii) for the prevention of liver abscesses in cattle; or (iii) for the prevention of ileitis in pigs; or © in milk replacers for calves, or starter rations for pigs, containing 100 mg/kg or less of antibiotic substances. and from page 202 SCHEDULE 5 TYLOSIN in animal feed premixes containing 5 per cent or less of antibiotic substances: (a) for growth promotion; (b) for the prevention of liver abscesses in cattle; or © for the prevention of ileitis in pigs. So here we have definitive proof that Tylosin is a schedule 4 (ie Prescription only Medicine) The following link explains that schedule 4 drugs are Prescription Only Medicines see page viii Alternatively see http://www.guild.org.au/iwov-resources/documents/The_Guild/PDFs/News%20and%20Events/Publications/Fact%20Sheets/scheduling_system.pdf So in short, any dog product containing any quantity of tylosin is a Prescription Only Medicine Additionally the earlier pages of the document suggest (to me) that the labelling is non compliant and that it is possibly illegal to advertise it to the general public. page 31 ADVERTISING 32. A person must not include any reference to a poison included in: (a) Schedule 3 unless included in Appendix H; or (b) Schedule 4 or Schedule 8, of this Standard in any advertisement except in genuine professional or trade journals or other publications intended for circulation only within the medical, nursing, veterinary, dental or pharmaceutical professions or the wholesale drug industry. A warning to anyone selling it- from page 32 Schedule 4 poisons 38. A person, other than a medical, dental or veterinary practitioner in the ordinary course of their professions or a pharmacist dispensing a legal prescription must not sell or supply a Schedule 4 poison. 39. Paragraph 38 does not apply to a pharmacist who sells or supplies a Schedule 4 poison, And page 33 STORAGE 43. A person who sells or supplies Schedule 2 poisons must keep those poisons in such a way that public access to advice from a pharmacist is available if required. 44. A person who sells or supplies Schedule 3, Schedule 4 or Schedule 7 poisons must keep those poisons in a part of the premises to which the public does not have access. other than a poison excepted by regulation from this provision, without a prescription if: (1) the patient is under medical treatment with the poison and continuation of medication is essential; and (2) the quantity sold or supplied does not exceed 3 days medication; and (3) the pharmacist is satisfied that an emergency exists. 40. Paragraphs 34, 36, 37 and 38 do not apply to sale by way of wholesale dealing to a pharmacist, medical practitioner, veterinary practitioner, dentist or a person licensed or otherwise authorised to possess, sell or supply such poisons. So there we are- proof positive that it is illegal to sell or use any tylosin based dog or cat tear stain product, such as; Angels Eyes (not Angels Eyes Natural), Angels Glow, Pets Sparks et al. Also be advised that tylosin tartrate does not hold a Marketing Authority for dog or cat use- this means that it has not officially be shown to be safe for prolonged dog or cat use. Do not assume that what you read on the sites selling these products even approximate to the truth.

I don't understand the relavancy of my your question. If you doubt my probity because of my nationality/residency, whatever that might be, then why would you believe my answer to your question? It is obvious that I have upset a number of members here because I have told them that a product that they have faith in has been mis-sold to them by the makers (not necessarily the resellers). Perhaps their ire should be vented at Angels eyes/Angels Glow etc and not the person that tried to warn the trusting and unsuspecting customers. Users that want to abide by the law need only to phone the number in the following link and ask if it is legal to give products containing tylosin tartare to dogs or cats without a prescription http://www.apvma.gov.au/about/contact/index.php If you do and they tell you that it is legal then feel free to lambaste me. I perfectally understand my question. If you are person living in another country it MAY be your rules but not in Australia. 1. It "could" be interpreted by your posts that you may have a real problem with the product. I don't. 2. It "could" be interrupted that you "may" work for a rival company. 3. It "could" also be interrupted that you may also be stirring up publicity for this product. Until your position is declared I shall have no further communication with you. I shall also continue to use this fantastic product. Why does it matter who Dazla is? Is there anything to prove that Angel Eyes does contain tylosin tartrate? Is Angel's Glow being retailed in Australia? If the products sold here do not contain tylosin tartrate then it doesn't matter whether that drug is legal or not. Dazla, how do you know that products being imported under those labels do contain this drug? If your interest is in warning unsuspecting customers, could this be done more effectively by simply reporting the product to the authorities yourself? I will happily declare my position. Somebody that is against the abuse of antibiotics, with no conflict of interest. Hi Greymate I am only assuming that the traditional Angels Eyes being sold in Australia does contain the tylosin tartrate that it claims, as per the labeling/promotional material. I cannot see why they would have taken the tylsoin out- the product would no longer work and would just be very expensive sweet potato and brown rice. eg http://www.angelseyesqld.com.au/services.aspx Perhaps reporting the products might be a wiser option- I was hoping that by exposing the lies used to sell these tylosin based products that members would be dissuaded from buying them in the first place- after all even once they are pulled from the shelves there will always be owners willing to smuggle them in. Unfortunately my experience of asking the FDA about the legal status of Angels Eyes a number of years ago resulted in them confirming that all of the tylosin based products are illegal (ie. not Approved), when i asked why they were still being openly sold I received no response. It seems that big wheels turn very slowly. The rumour mill says that one of the largest US retailers, PetsMart, was told to stop selling it, the other big retailer, PetsCo still sells it? It is banned in the EU yet it often gets past Customs when sent from the USA. I find it difficult to follow the thought processes of certain members- I am criticising an antibiotic based product for being being potentially harmful to the wider community and I recommend that owners use the antibiotic free product sold by the same company. In the other tear stain thread I recommend many steps that one can take to reduce staining, none of which involve proprietary products. Somehow this is seen as evidence that I am in league with the devil or some such... I was hoping that a vet or similar could confirm the legal implications of using an antibiotic that does not hold a Marketing Authority for dogs.

I don't understand the relavancy of my your question. If you doubt my probity because of my nationality/residency, whatever that might be, then why would you believe my answer to your question? It is obvious that I have upset a number of members here because I have told them that a product that they have faith in has been mis-sold to them by the makers (not necessarily the resellers). Perhaps their ire should be vented at Angels eyes/Angels Glow etc and not the person that tried to warn the trusting and unsuspecting customers. Users that want to abide by the law need only to phone the number in the following link and ask if it is legal to give products containing tylosin tartare to dogs or cats without a prescription http://www.apvma.gov.au/about/contact/index.php If you do and they tell you that it is legal then feel free to lambaste me.

I am not aware of any research into the use of Angels Eyes (or Angles Glow etc), could you please provide links. Thanks. Btw are you aware that it is illegal to self prescribe it to your dogs? Clearly it's not illgeal to use Angel Eyes. Why do you say that? Tylosin tartrate is an unlicenced prescription only medicine, it therefore reasonable to assume that any product that contains a prescription only medicine is itself treated as a prescription only medicine.

I am not aware of any research into the use of Angels Eyes (or Angles Glow etc), could you please provide links. Thanks. Btw are you aware that it is illegal to self prescribe it to your dogs?

Another advantage of eliminating grains is that dental health might be improved- dogs don't have the enzymes in their saliva required to break down the carbohydrates in grains.

"Several repeat-dose studies were conducted in rats and dogs; most of these studies were carried out some years ago and are not to modern standards. In a 2 year study in the dog, doeses of 200mg/kw and above caused vommiting, diarhoea and pyelonephritis"- http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/Maximum_Residue_Limits_-_Report/2009/11/WC500015760.pdf "mild renal effects... were seen in 1 out of 4 dogs"- http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/Maximum_Residue_Limits_-_Report/2009/11/WC500015764.pdf Most of the sites promoting the tylosin based products are trying to sell you the stuff and not the truth. How many mention the wider risks of cross species bacterial resistance? "In general the main concern is that resistance to tylosin can select for macrolide resistance in organisms that can colonise man and cause disease... Tylosin is not used in human medicine but other members of the macrolide group are. Cross-resistance across the group is an important consideration and many organisms resistant to tylosin were also resistant to erythromycin"- http://www.bioagrimix.com/haccp/html/tylosin.htm I am not laying the blame for MRSA and other super-bugs at the door of people that use Angels Eyes but they are in part, possibly contributing to what the WHO and others refer to as one of the biggest threats to mankind. There are environmentally safer alternatives out there- even Angles eyes sells one- why not give those a try first?

Unfortunately most people do not understand that using these products can lead to sub optimal dosing. They have no idea how much tylosin they are administering and the instructions are inadequate. I guess that with regard to bacterial resistance sub optimal dosing is potentially more dangerous than over dosing. Perhaps you can use the example of the EU market at the turn of the century as evidence that tylosin is not the only solution. After the VMD et al started enforcing the law and preventing the sale of these products the owners had to turn to alternatives. BTW can you confirm that the use of tylosin by dog owners without a prescription is prohibited? With regard to breeding- I agree in principle but there would still be a need to understand tear staining as the processes involved are mirrored in beard/saliva staining

True, boric acid is used in many of the tear stain eye pastes and even in human eye drops. The term acid sounds scary but if used properly it is pretty effective at killing the bacteria.

Hi Oakway I fully understand your animosity/cynicism towards me. I too used to be a devoted Angels eyes customer and believed what I later discovered to be their half truths and lies. I had prepared an awfully long response but realised that it was so protracted that it would just bore people. Much of the research into tylosin use in dogs was conducted as part of the approval process for the use of tylosin in livestock back in the 50s and 60s. Since that time there has been research that shows that Angels Eyes is not 100% safe, there has also been research that shows that the increasing bacterial resistance to tylosin is posing a a direct risk to humans. The makers of the tylosin based tear stain products are not the most honest of people and IMO their primary concern is their bank balances- not the welfare of your dogs. They exploit legal loopholes to make a product the it is illegal for members of the public to use. They intentionally mismarket their products by using terms such as 100% safe, natural or FDA approved ingredients; tylosin is not 100% safe, the term natural could be applied to pretty much anything found on the planet, tylosin is only FDA approved for poultry, cattle and pigs- not dogs or cats. Tylosin in Australia is defined by the APVMA as a class 4 product- it is illegal to use other than as a prescription only medicine- I have no idea if it is illegal to sell or not but the fact remains that it is illegal for you to give to your dog. The makers of Angels Eyes know that, they know that their product is not legal anywhere in the world, they don't tell anyone selling it that though.. I would like to reiterate that I am only referring to the tylosin based version and not the Natural Angels Eyes version.

I guess I run the risk of being shot down for saying that tylosin tartrate has no Marketing Authority (for dogs or cats) but, hey, it doesn't. The only version of tylosin that is licenced (anywhere in the world) is the liquid injection version. Only vets are allowed to prescribe it as a "medicine of last resort", ie whilst it is not approved they are allowed to prescribe it if they can demonstrate that none of the licenced medicines are fit for the task in hand. So it follows that unless a vet has prescribed it then administering it yourself is an offence (unless you are a vet). The makers of these products probably knew it from day one but I think they use a legal loophole to enable them to make and sell the stuff. I guess they would argue that they have no way of knowing if the person buying it is a vet or not. Bit of a con IMO.

switching to a grain free diet might make a big improvement. In nature dogs would seldom have eaten grains in the wild. Often they are only added to foods because they are cheap bulking agents. Many dogs are intolerant to the grains and for some weird reason one of the manifestations of this is that they end up producing more tears. Tear stains are a combination of 4 major factors: 1. Excess tears 2. Iron and other metals in the tears. 3. bacteria 4. Red yeast The tears contain metallic elements that oxidise when they hit the air- as they oxidise the bacteria on the skin metabolises them- an enzyme that is the basis of the red yeast is created. Apple cider vinegar may help some dogs by making the acid slightly more acidic- this will prevent the bacteria from being able to metabolise the iron, the bacteria can only function in ph neutral tears- I have no idea how safe it is to use in the long term and would have worries about increased stomach acid. Some owners feed antacids to make the ph of the tears more alkaline- IMO not a good idea in the long term as the stomach will have to produce more stomach acid to counteract the effects of the antacids. There are natural tears stain supplements that work by using antioxidants to oxidising the iron before it enters the tear streams- unfortunately I am not aware of any makers willing to pay for Australian import licences. There are two versions of Angels Eyes- one is tylosin antibiotic based and the other is a natural supplement. The antibiotic based version is the fastest to work but the antibiotic- tylosin tartrate- does not hold a marketing authority for dogs or cats and thus it is not legal to use unless under the direction of a vet. Of greater concern, the misuse of antibiotics is morally indefensible because of the risk of bacterial resistance. Frankly I am surprised that it is sold openly. According to the FDA it is not even legal in the USA... The natural version of Angels eyes is a great product- it uses plant extracts that have antibacterial properties that help by killing the bacteria. It does take longer to work but unlike the antibiotic version it is safe to use continually. I have been reading recently that probioics might help- I am not sure how but perhaps they help the good bacteria to crowd out the bad bacteria. Some find that filtered water helps- perhaps by reducing the overall mineral intake. If you persevere you should find a solution that works for you- don't forget to check the quality of any treats you use. BTW- many dogs produce more tears when they are teething- the gums become inflamed and can misshape the tear ducts- after teething the levels of tears might drop to a level where stains are no longer a problem and no treatment is necessary.

Have you considered one of the sprays/gels such as PetzLife? They are a blend of oils that work by softening any tartar so that it becomes soft enough to be removed through the normal process of eating http://www.petzlife.com/catalog/oral-care-products/oral-care-gel-peppermint.html Here is a list of retailers http://www.petzlife.com/retailers/retailers/australia.php