Mrs Rusty Bucket

Apparently when it's the battle of the insurance companies (ie car insurance vs house insurance) - it's cheaper for the house insurance to pay up than fight it so they do whether they really are liable or not. Also the "innocent until proven guilty" only applies to humans hence the onus being on the dog owner not the car owner to prove. It does seem like a good opportunity for a scam.

Have you tried letterboxing your area and offering a dog walking service? If you want to do this - it would help to mention how old you are and what times would suit you for dog walking. A lot of old or frail people would probably be very happy to have someone walk their dog for them. And busy mums. Or you might be able to link up with a rescue or foster carer to help them with their dogs. They can be prone to one dog too many syndrome. Beware of the failed foster dog tho. That's the one you can't bring yourself to give up so you end up keeping it. Even tho I live in a different house in a different burb to my mum - she was very upset when I got a puppy. All my siblings - have at one time or another dumped their dogs on her and she thought I'd do the same. A bit dumb really - or she would have been dealing with a very ancient horse for about 7 years if I was likely to do that.

It does depend a bit. In our council - you can only report dogs you have a rego number for. I did get some action - after getting the animal managment officer out to take a report in quadruplicate - with the old dog rego number... turned out it wasn't registered this year so they were up for a fine for that alone, and it bit me and my dog. So biting a human tends to get a lot more action than biting another dog. I had a recent discussion about dogs vs car accidents - and apparently if the car owner decides they want the dent out - they can point to any dog they like - and it's up to the owner to prove the dog could not have done it. In one case I got told about - the car owners pointed to a dog, the owner proved that the dog was at the vet at the time of the accident - so they pointed at the other dog. Ie the car owners had no clue which dog had done what, but they knew how to get an insurance claim paid. And apparently house hold insurance of the dog owner - covered the repairs to the car, and the insurance company said it was much cheaper to pay up than prove the car owners were scammers.

About the children walking the dog. The law varies from state to state. In SA a responsible person has to be holding one end of the lead with the dog on the other - on footpaths and the like - and that person has to be over 16. Same applies to off lead - the person exercsing effective control - has to be over 16. Yet overseas - they have junior handler competitions. And there's plenty of small people with big dogs they can't control.

I find most training goes to hell - not because of the style - but the committment, consistentcy and timing of actual delivery of reward or aversive. There is a much higher chance of bad timing getting the wrong result and being hard to re-train - using aversives - especially stronger ones ie loud reprimands, or physical pain or irritation. You can end up with a dog that would prefer to avoid you than train with you. Eg hiding behind the couch to toilet instead of coming when called to go outside. And the dog does a very good job of looking sad and disappointed in the owner when aversives are used - which can lead to lack of committment and consistency by the owner. Most owners would much rather reward their dog than punish it (yelling, yanking, time outs). So the whole style can be aversive for the owner. I also think this is why rangers won't enforce their local dog rules like on lead areas, and picking up - because it's as aversive and unpleasant for them as it is for the bad owner. Reward based training goes to hell - when the dog gets rewarded for everything - not the desired behaviour, and when there isn't a transition from high rates of reward (always paying like a vending machine) to rewarding average or better (more random payouts like a pokie machine). This is where I fail - I figure if I don't reward reliably for recalls - the dog won't come reliably but in fact I get better response if I only reward fast prompt recalls with yummy roast chicken and reward the "in a minite" recalls with a pat and "that was crap" in a happy voice. So I think choosing a trainer who mainly uses a style you're more comfortable with is a good idea. If that style doesn't work - you've got to consider it might be the delivery not the style that is the problem.

dangerous dog - not contained - loose in the street that's enough to report without mentioning you actually saw it attack some dogs as well. I have a friend who did not report a certain dog the first time that it attacked her dogs because the owner begged her not to, and more recently it's happened again. But because she didn't report the first one - she's got less leverage to get that dog properly secured.

I would definitely prevent this dog from escaping again. If the RSPCA don't get it - a car will. Is it microchipped, does it have a phone number on the collar? Sometimes those two things can bypass the need for the dog to go to the pound. Also some dogs can jump 3m fences or dig under them. A secure run involves a dig proof floor, dog proof sides and a roof. I keep my dog inside when I'm out. It's either that or build higher fences, and lock the gates to prevent meter readers or other random people accidentally letting her out. The RSPCA - it depends on who is running it and what staff they have, and who is there on the day... and they're different in each state. Some branches of the RSCPA are much less flexible than others. I've not had any problems with ours, but they did feature in a people skills documentary a few years ago and the management completely failed to adapt to the needs of their volunteers and staff. Sad and predictable.

While you're waiting... http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2009/02/idea-list-for-shaping/ And if you can't quite wait - there's this... but this maybe for those of us who already know we love the sport. http://www.agilityclick.com/category1_1.htm you probably only need the building blocks and foundations. But the rest would be interesting.

This really didn't work for my neighbour. First you have to find a successful trainer whose methods you're comfortable using (word of mouth or keyboard friends). There are a number of successful trainers on TV and not all of them use methods that would work with my dog. Her being as soft as a melted icecream. PS @ Corvus - interesting article but there is another option - I've never successfully taught my dog how to cope with Frustration. Possibly because I'm not very good at coping with it either.

I think the stats provided by the RSPCA on that Insight program on SBS a few weeks back was something like 67% cats they get in get euthanased. Feral or not wasn't mentioned. The number was three times higher than the number of dogs.

If you do decide to do regular obedience - and not all the clubs have the same obedience qual requirements as mine - do all the heelwork at home - on both sides. Cos you need your dog to work equally well on both sides of you, and away from you - depending how much you like running. Ie getting your dog to send out from you and run around a pole is handy foundation for distance challenges where you have to stay one side of a line on the ground and get your dog to go over jumps on the other side.

Donatella Do look up the foundation skills for agility. My club insists a dog passes grade 5 (or demonstrates equivalent skill) before they can start agility. What we really need is a dog that can hold a stay in front of a jump - with lots of other dogs running around and maybe the occasional possum running by (ok - most dogs I know can't hold the stay with the possum going through the course but that doesn't seem to sink in with the possums). And a dog that will come to you when you call it - no matter what. Off lead. It's also really handy for training if you can reward your dog with a quick game of tug. But that they also like food rewards. If you like trick training - you might want to look at some of the tricks that go with "dances with dogs". I'm pretty crap at timing stuff to music but the trick training and fancy heel work is fun. for agility foundation - I like the Greg Derrett DVD. For the agility stuff - I like the Susan Garrett Stuff (which depends on the Greg Derrett stuff for the basics on how you tell your dog which way you want it to go). There might be some agility competitions on this weekend in your area, that you could go watch (with your dog) to get an idea of what it's all about and what your dog needs to be able to do if you want to compete. Some people just do the training and never compete in our club.

There's a curly coat retriever at Geelong (do the curly coat breeders know about this?) http://www.petrescue.com.au/listings/205944 Why can't your friend use Pet Recue and then pick a dog that is in foster care - not a pound. Lost Dogs Home (vic) was featured in the "Don't Blame the Dog" series. It gave me a whole different view of them and why they do what they do. At one point in the show the manager took the pommie irresponsible breeder bloke to the dog mortuary and pulled out all the bags of dogs that were PTS or killed as a result of car accidents ie being allowed to walk off lead and run onto the road. It's financially impossible to feed and house all the unwanted dogs in Australia. I heard the numbers of *unwanted dogs* in NSW alone was about 20,000 PER YEAR! Shocking yes. But it's not the dogs' fault. And while we allow too many unsuitable dogs to be bred and homed with people who don't have the skills or desire to train them to be good pet dogs - we're going to have squillions of unwanted dogs.

It's a small gripe of mine (and it's not just about semantics, but that's a discussion for another thread), but this would be an extinction procedure, not negative punishment. You try telling that to my dog. She says it's the end of the world. (oh wait - the end of the world would certainly make all procedures and dogs extinct). There are some grey areas where the quadrants overlap. Ie is a non reward marker - an aversive or an extinction procedure. Actually I don't know much about "extinction procedures" as a term. Is that the same as not rewarding crap? If you don't reward something in order to not encourage it - is that the same as punishing it? Is it likely - when rewards are on offer that a behaviour would stay the same? Anyway - this is just noise in the signal and not helping the OP choose a trainer. I suspect the best trainers are somewhere between academic mastery and practical application. Steve's article is here. http://k9pro.com.au/services/how-to-choose-a-dog-trainer/

Domandal Now you can get the t-shirt http://www.cafepress.co.uk/offtheleashdoggycartoonsshop/9497093 a better look at the cartoon - here http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=385749444834599&set=a.266058050137073.65372.266050163471195&type=1&theater

BDJ It's fine for your friend to focus on positive reinforcement (using things the dogs like as rewards to encourage desirable behaviour), but if she withholds a treat - that's "negative punishment" (using something the dog doesn't like eg no treat - to discourage undesirable behaviour). I prefer to call it reward based training. Ie you give a reward for desirable behaviour and withhold it for undesirable behaviour and you may also have to control the environment (limit the opportunity for dog to be naughty) Eg the tissue shredding scenario - this is one of my dog's fave things. She will pick my pocket if I'm not paying attention (computers will do this to me) and shred the tissue. But I can stop her and then make her do what I want (20 tricks) and then she can have the tissue to shred. I play "its yer choice" with it ie I give it to her if she can show enough impulse control to not be trying to steal it. It's a fun game and we both enjoy it. But if it's a new game - she's still learning what she needs to do to get what she wants - she can get very frustrated and bark a lot. It's important not to reward this in any way. So the jargon problem is - there is no such thing as all positive dog training - or you'd be rewarding crap behaviour too. Ie you'd never withhold the treat or limit the dog's opportunity to be naughty. So it's a matter of being clear on what aversives (Things the dog doesn't like) that your friend is willing to use. Eg With-holding the treat. Putting the dog on lead (with a flat collar). Saying "try again" when the dog doesn't do the required behaviour... Get your friend to pay attention to what her dogs like - and use those to get what she wants. And maybe keep the kleenex where the dog can't reach them. And - make a training plan. At the end of our sessions - I'd like to know how to teach my dog to give me the kleenex when I ask, to leave them alone if not given permission to have etc. Steve Courtney has a list of criteria for choosing a good dog trainer - I think - bottom line - they've got to come up with methods the owner / handler understands and is willing to use - or it's a bit pointless. One well known franchise came to help my neighbours with their barking dog - and the methods were far too silly for my neighbours to be willing to use, and sufficiently unpleasant (aversive) for everybody - owner and dog - that nobody wanted to use them either. So that dog still barks at every moving thing around its back yard and kills any critter too slow to get clear in time. They haven't asked me for help either. They think I'm pretty silly walking round the back yard with my dog asking for a "5hitnapiss". Cracks them up but they won't do stuff like that.

Ignoring food from strangers is a good thing. The two I see regularily - are making friends with my dog, they look out for her now and are quite interested in what she sniffs and where she goes. But they still pretty much ignore me. They do pay attention to their owner - which is more than I can say for most dogs at our park. The sharpei owner does not have to worry about them foraging and eating stuff like left over chicken carcass or other take away debris or invading the club bbq space. Her main worry is them trying to crap where she can't find it. They like privacy for that.

Hmm I wonder if they do loaners or donations. Because I'm sure if we raised the $200 for a fibreglass Staffy - I'm not sure you wouldn't rather spend the money on the rescues.

If I forget I have food in my pocketses - evil hound will remind me. She's quite good at pick pocketing too - mainly for kleenex. If it's a bit of kibble or liver treat she just nudges the pocket and barks at me until I check. And then I either make her do 20 tricks for it, or I put it away with the rest of the treats and ignore the barking. I like her to indicate stuff she wants with barking - but my rule is - I cave as soon as possible or I don't cave at all. I wish parents would follow that rule with toddlers who want a lolly at the supermarket checkout. Either treat right away or never. Don't make the rest of us put up with 10 minutes of screaming and then cave. ARRRGGHHH

m-sass What is a "fan club" dog trainer? I'm in the fan club of several different dog trainers - none of whom would muzzle a dog aggressive dog as a first option when retraining. The whole point of distance is to get a dog that can still learn and is not overwhelmed by the distraction (good or bad) of other dogs nearby. So 20m might be excellent progress for a dog that was previously overwhelmed at 100m. I wouldn't call it "fixed" eiher. So if we're looking for criteria when choosing dog trainers - I have seen a lot of praise for Kathy on DOL - as recommended early in this thread - OP can do a site search for trainers perth site:dolforums.com.au if he wants. At risk of being accused of being in the fan club - you say that like it's a bad thing - http://k9pro.com.au/services/how-to-choose-a-dog-trainer/ One of the things I like about Steve - is he won't use any method the owner/handler is uncomfortable with. And he will follow up for as long as the owner/handler wants it. efs google unforgiving

withholding a treat is a correction. m-sass Anecdote - I saw an owner trying to catch his dog a couple of weeks ago. The dog was clearly terrified of him. I stupidly helped him catch the dog, and before I handed it over - I told him not to punish it. But he immediately shoved a choke collar over its head and yanked it around - told the dog "not to play games", and then he pushed the dog on the ground and hit it. In my best growly voice - I said "I will NEVER help you catch that dog again". And he grovelled - smiled and waved at me and left. Next time I see that dog - I will get its id info off its collar and report him for abuse. Some people should not be allowed to own dogs. But this is classic fallout. Ie the punishment is getting the opposite of what the owner intended in a way that treats never would used in the same situation. I accidentally trained my dog to go off big time at the lawnmower man. But so many (badly timed) treats were involved that she is always really pleased to see him and licks him to death if she gets close enough. I've stopped using treats and started using blocking with more success. Sigh. But at least I didn't use a technique that would likely cause her to blame the lawnmower man for her pain and lead to her attacking him. So the science - it's already been proven somewhere that reward based training is more effective, faster and lasts longer than aversive based... I think it would be straight forward to split new comers in dog clubs into two streams - old school yank and crank and new school reward based, and see which group graduates more dogs faster - with the same criteria and assessors who don't know which group is which or even that there is a split in the training techniques - though it might be obvious to them if they're doing an assessment. Another anecdote - watched a GSD club training. Watched tonnes of aversives - scoldings yanking, shaking, alpha rolls!!! being dished out, and no rewards, no pats, no praise, no fun, no treats. All the dogs looked sad. Heads were low, they were making calming signals at their owners and the instructor. The instructor stopped during class to punish his dog for failing to hold a down stay. My dog holds down stays for longer than his could, and my dog wags her tail the entire time. Mrs Rusty Bucket, these are not "methods" you have described, just people abusing dogs which is not even close to using an aversive where required in a balanced training system?? I would agree that these are abuse, but when we have dog club instructors advocating - how are people supposed to know what a "balanced training system" is? When the majority are getting it wrong and abusing their dogs - how do we fix that. The easiest way is to eliminate the possiblity of abuse - by focusing on the reward based training and avoiding the aversive stuff. It makes dog training for beginnners way more fun too - as they'd much rather reward their dog than punish it. It's also hard for the instructors - if they ask the people to use aversives and then constantly have to correct mistimed application (scold the beginners). But more often - they do the opposite. And this takes the fun out of dog club for the beginners too. We have 700 join every year but only about 100 competition level trainers if that - rejoin.

Domandal On being mistook for female - this might be why: fiancé - is the french term for the male of the betrothed partnership fiancée - is the term for the female in the partnership So when you said you had a fiancé - we thought you were the female in the partnership - though these days we could be wrong. And even though you said you were doing 2 weeks on / off - which is more typical for men in the mining industry - there are a lot of women doing this too. It's also way more common for a female dog to guard a male partner/owner, and a male dog to guard a female partner. Than a female dog to guard a female partner. I admit I am female and I have a female dog who is a tad more enthusiastic about guarding me and mine than I am. Door to door salesmen excepted. I don't mind if she scares the crap out of them. But no bloke lives here for her to prefer instead of me.

Domandal As Aidan said - there's two safe ways to get your dog off your bed. All those cued behaviours are great - but you can increase the reliability of each by practicing with increasing levels of distraction. Obviously staying comfy on the bed might seem more rewarding to the dog than anything you might have to offer by way of a recall reward. You don't want to back chain being naughty by not getting off the bed when asked, then recalling then getting a treat. That's tricky to get right. Maybe call once - and if that doesn't work - then try the lead. I suspect banning the dog from the bedroom, and keeping that door shut for a while might help prevent naughty behaviour. Ie she can only be up there if she will get off when you ask (give and geddit). This is why getting help with the training might be a good idea. You can increase the reliability of some of your cues by adding distractions, eg asking for sit and drop - with the treats nearby but not in your hand. Maybe cover a cup of treats with a heavy bowl so you can prevent theft initially, but build up to an open bowl. A recall past a bowl of food - even a tub with the lid on to start with. More reliable recall. and some games of "its yer choice" or "leave it" in front of the telly or when you're just chilling. But if she learns that biting gets what she wants - this might not be safe - unless you can do give and geddit with food. Ie trade one item of food for another - or reliably have her give up toys. If she knows it's not the end of the world to give up food or toys that helps - that's why making a game of it works. LizT I wouldn't force a recent rescue to do anything - except maybe a vet visit. I wouldn't drag any dog out of a crate by the collar especially one I didn't know well. I don't know if it would let me clip on a lead either. The lead and drag - is for my dog who knows me - and the "off" command and the recall command (plenty of reinforcement) and the signs of going for a walk or a car trip - when she won't get off the couch. And I don't yank her off. I just apply gentle pressure until she gets up herself. I could do it without the collar but lifting her is a pain in the back. She hasn't ever tried to bite me either. It's just a technique. I can achieve "off the couch" by opening the fridge or freezer door - but that's her training me to reward her for not getting off it. My dog is weird - she doesn't like going for a walk or a ride in the car, but she does like being at the off lead park and the beach and visiting friends. She's just starting to connect that going for a walk goes to the park - but she does get a bit anxious if we go somewhere else - like the letter box or other park. She was once a frightened rescue puppy. But she was always keen to get out of the crate. These days she likes going in the crate almost as much as coming out of it. I did some fancy heel work with my dog at the beach the other day and she got called a "circus dog" which I thought was pretty funny. I also have the problem where she doesn't like to do anything unless food is on offer, and she knows when anybody is carrying food. There's no hiding it. So it's easier to use it as a distracton ie you don't get the food unless you do average or better in the presense of food without trying to steal it. Sometimes I do leave it inside the house when we train outside so some of the training incorporates a longish out of sight sit stay while I go get it. And for some training - food is not the main motivator. Chasing me or toys is.

Simply Grand - it's harder for a dog that doesn't want to give up its spot - to bite you - if you've put the lead on and are 2m down the other end. It's pretty easy for them to give you a "leave me alone" bite if you're holding the collar. I frequently have to put the lead on my dog to get her off the couch - when I want to go for walks. But she's getting better. She never tries to hold her place on the couch or the bed if I want it. I think she finds it a bit too uncomfortable when I squish her or get into the bed under her - she's not much of a lap dog. Though she did make an uncomfortable exception during the last thunderstorm.

A vet behaviourist I respect, said - if the dog doesn't want to get off the couch - put a lead on and use that to remove the dog. Especially if the dog thinks the lead means good things like a walk. Reward with praise when the dog is off. And then you might want to teach on/up and off, the same way you teach geddit and give... Make sure you're rewarding not luring or the dog will soon be training you. And "go to your mat / bed" may also help, more practice on that one. Is her bed as comfy as yours? And she's always going to want to be where the people are. And I also agree with the recommendations to get an expert in.