Mrs Rusty Bucket

really? I think that depends on whether the dog is from an environment where the breeder has been selecting for strong temperament over generations. I think my dog's parents might have selected themselves and grew up in environments where a dog had to "assert itself" for basic resources like food and human attention. Thinking a dog like mine would know what to do without training - is about as reasonable as expecting it to know about house training and asking to be let out without me needing to do anything...

I can't believe I'm sitting here considering going to dog club at west beach tonight or the park... we had a good night at the park last night. And she's usually pretty good at dog club - as long as nobody gets right in the front of her crate - and at West Beach they don't use crates... they just put all the dogs in drop stays (wow Evil hound will actually do that with her tail wagging). There is one dog at club who just goes TAR and spends its entire time not running - barking and lunging... it's not dog aggressive tho - it just wants those jumps... And Frosty ignores it. PS I've got a major attack of the inertias - I don't want to do anything at all, and the dog keeps fetching me walking shoes...

Hmm our dog club has started selling yellow leads and bandana things with "Give me space" written on them in big letters. I was probably one of the evil people who let my dog greet reactive dogs, but she was so good at it. We got away with it over and over... Well I guess not so much any more. What I don't get is the people who have dogs where every single other dog at the park hates their dog - they still say "my dog's friendly and you shouldn't bring your nasty dog to the park". Hello? You shouldn't let your dog harass every dog and every person...

I stayed at http://www.paringacaravanpark.com.au/ with my dog in the cabin but in her crate not the bed. And I put my swag on top of the bed - which is what I do in these cabins these days - less chance of getting smoke fumes. The blurb says "quiet" but it is on the major truck route and trucks go all night and it's across the road from a feral hotel/motel... and you have to go back to Renmark if you want take away dinner and you better be there before 8pm or they're all shut. Gotta love South Australia. Nobody ever wants food after 8pm right? Cos nobody ever has evening hockey training or dog agility training and wants to wait until after all that running to eat? And there is a loose dog that lives across the road from the hotel and it was nice to Frosty who grovelled for it but ... I don't think I'd take my dog for a walk around there again. It was a nice cabin. Watch out for the red hose reels if you're backing in next to your cabin because they sit right in the blind spot and will make a mess of the back end of your car if you get too close. How I avoided the one at my cabin - I don't know. Unfortunately if you have to stay near Renmark - as best I can tell - all the caravan parks are on that truck route. Don't know much about Mildura except they have a nice park next to the river. I usually go the road through Lamaroo, Ouyen and Tooleybuc - again a major truck route. I have stayed at the Ouyen caravan park but they were having trouble because of water restrictions (that didn't seem to effect the football club or trotting track next door) so it was very weedy for tents and they didn't have any cabins. And the trotters will wake you up early if the itinerant workers don't. But the football oval and trotting track are nice places to take the dog for a walk. I've stayed at the Balranald caravan park a few times. The truck noise there is less because they're set down from the road. And the trucks are going slower through there just because it's windy and there is an intersection they have to stop at and I think the speed limit is enforced not like Paringa. There's also a couple of motels that are set back from the truck route near the river in Balranald "Sturt Motel" is one, but I've never tried to stay there with a dog. But you need a good early start from Adelaide (10am or earlier) to make Balranald. If you leave at 2pm like I did - Renmark is a better bet. Sigh. Never want to do that again. Balranald has dedicated cabins for people with dogs. Which is nice. It's better if you don't get people checking in at 2am or an expensive upgrade so you're not sharing a wall with a family of nine or more itinerant workers. The expensive Balranald cabin was nice - but it had some very threatening signs up about health regulations and dogs and smoking which I found a bit puzzling since they allowed dogs in the other cabins with no scary health reg signs.

Hi Snook I think setting things up so Justice is not "rehearsing undesirable behaviours" is a really good idea and this may mean not going near any places there are likely to be dogs off lead, and sticking to places for walks where there is plenty of room to avoid other dogs. If there is somewhere you can go where you can manage how close the dogs get that would be great but I can't think of anywhere that there are big open spaces that are dogs on lead but don't have idiots who let their dogs off lead eg most of the Adelaide parklands and the bit of West Beach "Shores" next to the German Shepherd club - is dogs on lead but people routinely ignore that. They're talking about (if they haven't already) making the northern end of Victoria park - dogs on lead - because of all the cycle races and other events they have there - so that might actually be enforced. Or maybe somewhere that is too dangerous to let a dog off lead like near busy roads. But my dog hates busy roads.

not necessarily... what you really want is a dog that will work for whatever toy you have. So you can use the toy most appropriate to what you want to reward and where. Eg you don't want a rolling toy to reward in position at the end of the weaves... But it might be good if you're rewarding driving away from you (a go out). You may also want to work with very small toys so that you can hold them hidden in your hand until the right moment. So with my dog - she tries to train my choice of toys towards her favourites and I try to work through the DWDH - "don't wannna don't hafta" moments. Ie play with the toy I have...

I think you can go to most hardware stores and get PVC pipes and connectors to make jumps out of. Not sure about tunnels. You can do a lot with milk crates and broom sticks and pool noodles and toilet roll holders too. I was thinking if I went to a camping shop (or shop that sells camping stuff) and got some really fine fibreglass tent poles I could sort of wind those into a spiral and use them to make a tunnel out of an op shop sheet or some tarp or both. Haven't tried it yet. Might need the help of a sail maker to get it all straight.

Woot Terri - I do love an update. Glad you're on your way back to the "right path".

Susan talks about "thunder bones" ie she gets out calcium supplements (my dog can spell "B-O-N-E"), at the first sign of thunderstorms or maybe before - and her dogs look forward to them. Is interesting that thundershirts are a bit hit and miss. They work with some dogs but not others.

Imagine a room for 12 step counselling... My name is aka MRB (among other things) and I have (sob) a reactive dog. She used to be super friendly grovel dog and a fair bit of the time she still is, but other people allow their dogs to rush up at her - and she reacts. It happened again tonight on the way to the park. We rounded a corner and there were two dogs in the verge (which is pretty wide) - one of the dogs Frosty knows but doesn't like a lot but they don't hassle each other - a chocolate lab. The other one is the kind of dog we've been having lots of trouble with - a poodle cross spaniel maybe? White curly hair medium sized dog. So I'm moving Frosty along smartly so she can't get the fixed stare - when this poodle x - gives us the stare and - it is on a loose double lead eg 4m of lead where only 2m is legal here. And it does the rush barking and growling and Frosty tries to have a go. And the lady holding the poodle x - is so surprised... I think they've met before and her dog jumped Frosty and was extremely nasty... Great. I'm blocking Frosty until she shows some interest in what I'm doing and then we move along. I'd like to yell abuse at no control lady but if I do that, it sets Frosty off again... on the up side - we didn't have any problems at the park, including when another choc lab came over to say hi. Phew. We did have an unrelated problem with a poodle owner who did not want to pick up after his dog, and then when we gave him a bag - he picked up but then left the poop and the spare bag on the ground. Sigh. Got that dog's rego tag with some help of other dog walkers and he's getting reported.

yeah the choke collar completely turned my dog off going for walks. Took me two years of flat collar work to get her to look forward to the walk to the park. I wish I had known what I know now when she was a puppy. Techniques that worked on previous dogs - just shut her down completely. And yet she'd lean into the collar to try to say hello to other dogs at club. Sigh. the choke collar was worse than useless. We're still working on getting treats right too but the fallout doesn't seem as severe. Some things I have got beautiful understanding and other things I still get the doggy equivalent to the finger.

Kavik - are we talking about my dog's aggression problems. Yes it happens when she goes TAR about something (too aroused to respond). Usually the lawnmower man but lately - people walking home from the bus stop past my house. Today she had a go at the lady who lives at the end of the street, same lady that pesters council to ban dogs from everywhere because people don't pick up the dog turds, and possibly because she's a bit scared of them. So my evil hound - waggy tail, hackles up, saying rude things at her as she went past - not a good look. Threshold distance as she approached was about 50m or so, but as she went past - evil hound calmed down considerably - like she was asking me if she did good - I've got to be pleased with that right? Erm no. I body blocked the dog, but she was pretty focussed and not paying any attention to me at 10m distant. Trouble is at this point, if I grab her collar - I get "opposition reflex" excitement. Which I don't get for any of the things I want her to be excited about. Sigh. I have trouble believing it's fear aggression, she doesn't seem at all afraid. I think it's more some sort of territorial thing - because it's worse at my house.

That would be my point - the hard corrections may work where as what I routinely see at dog club and elsewhere - allowing a dog to lean into a slip chain choke collar - just desensitizes the dog to the collar... I have just learned about "Opponent Process Theory" where the brain (of human or dog) when perceiving an aversive - has a hit of adrenaline "A Process" (eek what's that?), and then a calming "B Process" which counters the A process so the animal can think again. If you want to desensitize to spiders or fireworks - you expose a critter to just enough A process that the B process can counter it... and then the B process has a bit of a lag - so it is still in effect for a while after the A process has stopped so you get this kind of calming - which is how people become addicted to pain.. It's also how mind altering drugs - that used to work - lose their power over time. So your aversive has to be strong enough but not so strong that the dog either freaks out completely and shuts down and not so weak that it just learns to tolerate it. And a strong aversive applied for no reason that the dog can figure out - will lead to a crazy anxious dog (eg rubbing its nose in pee, hours after the event). And yes there can be problems with back chaining bad behaviour (aggression) if you're using treats to reward that (inadvertently). I've done that. Oops. But at least my dog is still keen to work with me.

hi Afterbanns I am not experienced with GSD much, my fave breed is cattle dog and they can have some of the same problems - they will push the envelope with what is allowed or not, they will train you, and the more you exercise them, the fitter they get, so the more you need to exercise them. What I know about dog training is largely based on Susan Garrett and Bob Bailey's methods - you can't force an albatross or dolphin in the open to do what you want, and yelling "stop" at it has no meaning without a trained behaviour to go with it. It all has to be reward based training and lots and lots of it. Punishment using aversives tends to lead to escalation - ie you have to punish perfectly timed and quite hard for the dog to deterred from repeating the behaviour (successful punishment) otherwise you just desensitize the dog to the aversive "stop"?. Personally I don't want to go there with a dog that mirrors what I do - if I'm rough with my dog - she's rough with me. So you're doing stuff that is rewarding this dog for the behaviour you don't want. Pay attention to what happens just before the inappropriate behaviour starts. Work to prevent the precursors. Eg Air sniffing in the kitchen - leads to counter surfing. Prevention - dog required to sit on mat outside the kitchen. For this dog - he doesn't seem to care about doing what you want, he cares about getting you to do what he wants (feed him treats etc). With my dog for certain behaviours I'm trying to stop or replace with better ones - I can't use treats for rewards - because she back chains the unwanted behaviour with the good behaviour eg she acts naughty then good to get the treat... Much frustration for me but it's clearly working for her if I don't pay attention to what I'm doing. For your dog - I'd be looking at relationship building behaviours and some conditioned behaviours - start with your husband around just in case and or your professional trainer of choice. Video your training sessions - a phone video camera will do. Do lots and lots of trick training and shaping. Don't always use treats - sometimes use toys eg a ball in a sock or a tug toy with a bungee cord on it (so your arm stays in its socket) Start with the basics. Eg collar grab - you want to be able to grab his collar or his scruff and him see that as a good fun thing and safe for you. Not as a punishment for him (fun ends and dog gets put away). Crate games - can use a crate or a mat - this is something you want to condition too, train the dog to go in crate on command and love being in there ie the extra large kong - in the crate only. Make it exciting and fun. My dog loves being in her crate... it always means something good for her. Then you can use the crate command to get the dog into a safe place for you. Beware of back chaining - eg jumping on you, go in crate, get reward. Put loads of money in the bank for being in the crate, but only reward with praise (not food or toys) if the step prior to going in the crate was jumping on you. If he back chains on praise - you're 3/4 the way there because he cares about what you say to him now. Another really basic conditioned response you want is "drop" or "down" ie dog lie down now. Which you can use to get him off you. And you also want the geddit (tug) and give (spit it out) commands working really well. "Premack" everything. Don't give him any attention, food, don't open the door for him, don't put the lead on - until he's done something for you. As he gets faster with responses - ask for harder tasks before you do what he wants. So what he wants only comes when he does what you want first. Everything you premack becomes worth more to him and he will work harder and with more joy for it. I don't understand why this works - but it does. Note - this also applies to humans / teenagers. Engage his brain - this wears a young dog out more than a long walk... pick some trick and shape it. Maybe start with one trick a week but if he's smart you can do more than this or have more complicated tricks. You can use the word "yes" instead of a clicker. http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2009/02/idea-list-for-shaping/ Try some trick heelwork (backwards, sideways, otherways, both sides, circle work... don't need any special equipment for this). Try getting him to find things with his nose... Put several toys out and get him to fetch them by name... I agree with the others about getting a trainer in to help but make sure you get one that helps you build a rewarding relationship with your dog not a fear based one. This is Steve Courtney's advice on how to choose a trainer. http://k9pro.com.au/services/how-to-choose-a-dog-trainer/ These are trainers I've seen recommended in here for QLD area. Jane Harper http://www.dogsontrack.com.au/ Craig and Tracey Murray http://www.dogschool.com.au/ Something else to consider - it may help you to see a woman trainer working - then you might see better that getting control back is something you can do even if the dog seems stronger than you. Good luck with this dog. Life must be pretty scary at the moment for you. And do update us with any progress...

Eek Suziwong - is that my vet on Greenhill road... sigh. They can get a bit old fashioned. But he is willing to listen and learn if you're willing to argue. But I often get the locums. I've had other people recommend Hawthorn vet too. It is Belair road - just south of Cross roads and roughly opposite Mitcham Girls High (I think).

I don't think SG would think it was OT... SG was talking about record keeping... This is what I said about it (on the chatroll where they can see it) Our record keeping homework (trying to make it super simple and a bit like a gratitude journal) And of course - I haven't done yesterdays... or todays... I think I need to give myself permission to "do it wrong"

Susan Garrett did an online contacts course but hasn't made that into a dvd or anything currently available to the public. You'd get a fair bit of the foundation for it from H360 You need Greg Derrett's first Dvd or maybe the first two to understand the handling arm action in SG's success with one jump and 2x2 weaves... Tho SG has modified the Derrett system to suit slower runners (than Greg Derrett). I thinking of modifying it further for people with knee injuries who can't stop and turn 180 fast... ie bugger the knee busting front cross - I think I'd like an arm change blind cross since my dog does love to run behind me and it's hard for me to turn and face her just to get a front cross arm change. Greg Derrett with Laura also do online courses but the one I did - didn't have any live "coaching calls". The take home documentation was great tho. SG is a fan of the Trkman's stuff but I'm not sure how much of her handling she uses. The main thing is to figure out a consistent way of getting your dog to know where it needs to go next - including out and away from you.

I can't get over his name. "oddone"... odd one - and not in a good way.

The things I love about my dog are also the things that drive me nuts about her... How smart she is. How fast she can train me to do what she wants. How independent she is. How demanding (that I stay home and help her sunbake) she is. How protective she is. How slow she is to make new friends... unless they're carrying food. In which case she demands they hand it over. How fast she learns - even the unintended stuff. How good she is at finding stuff (food mostly). How she fetches a shoe or a hat to get my attention and if that doesn't work... barks her head off and if that doesn't work - consoles herself by eating the hat... Her singing... her chattiness, her inability to shut the Fup. Ok she can... but only when she gets what she wants... extinction bursts are (not) us...

The amazing thing that gets me - is the mind - body relationship... ie if your body isn't working properly - eg you get an injury and you can't get around as easily as you used to - some people get sad (I did) ie a broken body can lead to a broken mind - and not just knee injuries but also the diseases will do this... But if your mind isn't working properly - it can cause all sorts of problems in the rest of your body... And if your mind is working really well - you can "tune out" pain and injury completely while you get your body out of a crisis... I know this, have experienced it, but don't have the ability to heal by thinking the broken bits better... sigh.

I've been told the vet on Goodwood Road (daw park?) does titre testing for vaccinations so I'm considering going there next vax time. I often go to CLG vets on springbank road but it's a bit random if you get someone who is good with dogs. And my usual vet for vaccinations (C5 no matter what), is the Glenside Vet on Greenhill road near L'Estrange St. And he just recommended Marion Road vet for after hours emergencies... hmm. they don't seem to be 24 hours... Sigh. Anzac Road might be the only one that is. And Marion Road is where the Two Traceys (one vet behaviourist and one trainer) work - I think. http://www.adelaideveterinarybehaviourservices.com.au/www/content/default.aspx?cid=733

I suspect it's more like the same mechanisms involved in brain washing... drug addiction the chemicals are supplied from external sources, what SG's presenter was talking about was chemicals or just responses supplied as an internal response to an external stimulus... Eg "I like this" or "I'm freaked out by this"... She talked a lot about being confined in a small space with a lot of spiders (flooding) and the risks of flooding (trauma and massive aversion) and the benefits (realising that spiders aren't so bad - hard to believe). yeah I'm pretty sure its the same thing, it's called Opponent Process theory :) Opponent Process theory - so it was. So the addiction to external chemicals like alcohol and the build up of tolerance - is the same process as the addiction to internal chemicals eg adrenaline and dopamine from things like extreme sports or lots of running?

I suspect it's more like the same mechanisms involved in brain washing... drug addiction the chemicals are supplied from external sources, what SG's presenter was talking about was chemicals or just responses supplied as an internal response to an external stimulus... Eg "I like this" or "I'm freaked out by this"... She talked a lot about being confined in a small space with a lot of spiders (flooding) and the risks of flooding (trauma and massive aversion) and the benefits (realising that spiders aren't so bad - hard to believe).

Anyone in icpeeps wants an overdose of live streaming... it was on last night all night, and it's on again tonight from 10:00pm SA time or 8:30am Toronto time - tech permitting. Bits of it can be looked at for about four hours from broadcast using a PC and rewind ie you can log in around 7am and watch the last few hours. Mostly lecture format. There was some detailed stuff on why reinforcement is easier to use than punishment and why punishment needs to be escalated to achieve the same result - something about the A process (adrenaline response to punishment) being cancelled out by a delayed B process (calm down) and a lag in the calm down process that can actually make the punishment start to seem enjoyable (and stop being as punishing cos its not so aversive) which explains why dogs trained with shock collars can have less stress hormones than dogs trained other ways... Cos of the b process. But they can also become desensitized to the shock so it no longer works.

I wouldn't put a loaded dog bag in a private bin that was already emptied. That's just rude. The bags aren't completely odour proof. And I wouldn't want people to do that to me. I might break that rule if the private bin was extremely grotty even when emptied or I knew who owned the bin and I didn't like them (they don't pick up after their own dog or they play loud music all night or they have lots of parties with too many cars blocking the street etc).