Mrs Rusty Bucket

Steve White just shared this... http://pupniron.com/laurie-s-blog/blog/just-shut-up-and-train Except Agility - at least in ANKC - no +P allowed. No scolding or hitting the dog in the ring. No slip chain collars.

2013 study on dog aggression towards humans... One of the correlations is between aggression and training with aversives ie +P or -R http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/action/doSearch?searchType=quick&searchText=+Gemma+J.+Richards&occurrences=author&journalCode=applan&searchScope=fullSite The use of positive punishment or negative reinforcement based training methods was associated with increased chance of aggression to family and unfamiliar people outside the house. I had trouble (errors) trying to get the abstract and stuff up. Corvus might have better access to an online copy. I do wish academic texts included better layout for readability (line breaks between ideas). edit which is not wish.

I don't understand. The clicker is meant to mark when the dog does a behaviour you like or wanting to train. It's not meant to get the dog's attention. And I don't understand how you train a dog that a vibration on the collar means look at the handler? Excellent you are praising when she does what you want - that will help her understand what you want her to be doing. You telling her "No" - doesn't help her understand what you want her to be doing. Dogs aren't very good at understanding "don't do something" - all they hear is "do something".

Mutt short for muttonhead: dull-witted person or dog of unknown parentage or parents of different breeds. ie anything of mixed breed was considered stupid or lower class. I know my mutt is one of the smartest dogs I know - even if you start doing doggy IQ tests on her - she figures out stuff very fast. One or more of her ancestors was definitely herding dog or Australian Cattle Dog aka Blue heeler (she's black and white spotty and likes rounding things up).

Aversive is not the same as positive punishment (aversive is not the same as negative re-inforcement). It's only punishment if the behaviour decreases. Hence Not getting the chicken (across the busy road) is aversive to the dog (something it doesn't like - depending on the dog), but the event described is not "punishment" because the next time dog sees chicken - its just as likely to attempt to get the chicken. No learning has taken place and no behaviour has changed. In this case - who is applying the tension and force? The trainer or the dog? When I'm training loose lead - I don't pull the dog backwards, I just stop moving forwards. You don't really get any learning or change in behaviour (re-inforcement or punishment) until the dog makes a choice of its own that you can encourage or discourage. If you're making the choices for the dog - nothing is going to change - you're not increasing or decreasing a behaviour so you're not punishing or re-inforcing. Yes some trainers who claim to be "purely positive" are misusing the scientific based language but I don't think Karen Pryor and those part of her group do that. But you, Willem, confuse the jargon with every post. I hear you Steph. I'm sick of arguing the semantics.

There are some books and other resources about "tell your dog you're pregnant" - ie start the preparation now. http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013/03/04/3702814.htm You can get the book here and from Amazon. And maybe your library. Or maybe Dr Kirkham's vet practice. http://www.wowbaby.com.au/baby-pet-tell-your-dog-you-re-pregnant-by-dr-lewis-kirkham.html

PS I've seen this person recommended too Debra Millikan http://www.caninebehaviouralschool.com.au/our-team/

Yes we do practice resource sharing games. I often interrupt her in the middle of dinner - to put something good into the bowl. And she's fine with that. Some dogs think you're going to take their dinner away and they will never see it again. That might be true sometimes but most of the time - it needs to be I take it, I give it back with a bonus so long as you're polite. I keep reading this thread title as the owner is doing the "resource guarding".

I like to pat and treat my dog when we're at the park. There's often a lot of other dogs who also want pats and treats. I don't treat other dogs without their owners' permission. But if there is any nasty behaviour - all the treats and pats go away... The dogs learn pretty quick to be polite with each other. My dog sometimes thinks about resource guarding, but as soon as she shows any sign of it, the resource is promptly removed. And that includes me. I just walk away from her. Sometimes I shut myself in a separate room - tho I'd shut her in a separate room (or crate) if there were visitors and she was rude. Mostly she's good at sharing tho.

The majority of this forum are dog obsessed, and the (competition) training obsessed are very up to date on the language. That doesn't mean you can't have a discussion, but I'd rather it wasn't about what the words mean. But you make it that by redefining them to suit yourself. Eg Punishment has a specific meaning related to reducing a behaviour. You can't redefine it to mean doing something that makes a dog feel bad. You don't know how the dog feels about it. It might be something the dog likes but the dog likes and will work harder for something else on offer... eg food vs opportunity to chase sheep (again).

(virtual hugs)

Bodil will probably be the cheapest. Followed by Alexis. Because they are trainers not vets. But if they think your dog is unable to be trained without meds they will send you to the vet. But if you can't afford those guys - ask them to recommend someone. You might find someone from a dog club willing to try to help for free but you'd want to choose carefully. Some of them are familiar with best science based training and many are not. But $300 for a 2 hour consult in home is pretty reasonable. It's likely to be at least three hours of their time. They probably carry insurance $$ and the ones we have recommended here all have some level of professional training in dog training and hopefully owner training.

You need to reward the dog for being in the right spot as much as you prevent the pulling (stopping or going in the other direction). Any behaviours you don't want - if you don't interrupt them and substitute what you do want your dog to do instead. It's only going to get worse. Separating the dogs is a good idea. Am I right in reading in your first post that both dogs pull on lead and neither heel nicely or keep a loose lead? The puppy will copy the older dog. So you need to train both. What you also need to think about is "what have I been doing that allows or encourages this (undesirable) behaviour?". Two things to search on youtube for video instruction are "re-inforcement zone" and "loose lead walking kikopup" It will be easier to train each dog separately and start the training from the beginning in each new place you want them to loose lead walk eg 1. hallway in house 2. backyard 3. front yard 4. street at front of house 5. round the block 6. at the local park 7. at the beach 8. at a different park 9. at your mum's place. 10. near dog club 11. in dog club And to each of those different places you can gradually add different levels of distraction 1. other dog hanging around 2. other dog on lead with you 3. bowl of food (with a lid) just there. Needs to be able to heel past that without getting distracted. 4. balloons or balls bouncing by 5. kids running around. 6. primary school recess at the local park (where school and public share green space, keep dogs on lead for their safety). 7. other dogs running and barking (you will probably get this at the park and the beach - so try to get other easier distractions working at home or around the block before you expect quality loose lead walking at the park) 8. model cars 9. model planes (argh.) or kites 10. wildlife or stock eg roos, koalas, seagulls, pelicans, cows, sheep, chickens (argh)...

PS if you want the fast dog in Agility - you don't try to bring the arousal down, you try to bring the ability to respond under that arousal - up. I've done this with my dog. Otherwise you end up with a dog that is careful and slow. You might get a pass but you aren't likely to get a trophy.

Willem Discussing dog training with you is very difficult. The scientists have very specific definitions for the words they use. We can't have a discussion if you constantly change the definitions of technically specific words to suit yourself. A human can rarely claim to know what a dog knows. A dog might be able to respond to a cue in a specific context (place, state of excitement etc) but that cue is unknown in a different context. This is because dogs are largely crap at generalising. So your understanding of what "ignore" means is clearly different to what Corvus (or any of the rest of us) mean by it. when Corvus (or Bob Bailey) study training methods - they do not concern themselves with what the dog might know or understand or feel. Only what the dog does or doesn't do. The dog's response. So no response might be considered "ignoring", and dead dogs are very good at that. Changing the definition of a word doesn't make you right and the rest of us wrong. It just makes you impossible to have a useful discussion with.

I think Mark Singer has moved to Melbourne so he's not available in Adelaide any more. Well he might come back if you pay airfare and accommodation...

I don't know how to say this without offending lots of people... you're much better informed. your love and best intentions and your care for your dogs are all better informed now and your choices in the future will be better. Doesn't that make you a better dog owner? And the opposite of "clueless" is "well informed/educated". If people were well informed about dogs in petshops and the designer crosses, the care or lack of it and health testing or lack of it... they wouldn't support that industry. If people were well informed about dog body language and social interactions, they would train their poodle crosses and not let them get in the faces of other dogs uninvited. I guess nobody is perfect but there are better ways of doing things. Simply Grand got nearly everything you'd want in a dog breeder except the health testing. And the health testing - to me it's a sign of the breeder being well informed and doing the best they can to reduce the chance of health problems in their puppies. Hopefully they get the other things like training right too but it's not a guarantee.

You'd think so. But the rest of evil hound's behaviour is not consistent with this idea of an insecure dog. She is insecure - sometimes. And other times she's super confident. Sometimes she even breaks up play or the prelim to a fight between other dogs by running between them. I don't know why humans don't try this more often, just blast between two dogs eyeing each other off... Ok I know (bite risk). She always gets away with it. She will cross two ovals to do the grovelly greeting with a new dog or human. And they say "ooh look she's so timid and submissive". I say - if she was "timid" why did she approach in the first place. And submissive? look at them now and she's herding the deerhound or ridgeback any way she wants it to go. I think most of the time it's her way of making a totally non-threatening safe greeting for the other dog. She gets greetings and play out of dogs that otherwise refuse to make friends by being completely non-threatening. Works well on fear aggressive border collies and other herding dogs but she doesn't push it. If they don't come in for the sniff - she doesn't chase them. But some dogs - get it all wrong and she leaps up and scolds the hell out of them. Sometimes they've just been clutzes and stepped on her, and some do that lean over and bully thing and as best I can tell - she says "no way". I don't know how dogs choose what they're doing sometimes. Cos she's occasionally scolded some dog that has come barrelling up to her and rolled over. That dog has obviously "done it wrong" in her opinion. And I can't tell - apart from it barged too close before rolling over ie no slow down, look away lip lick grovel crawl first. And she rolls over for certain humans. Usually ones she thinks will give her a belly rub. She's really good at picking the right humans. And they say - ooh she's so submissive and I say - no - you're special, she doesn't do that for everybody.

Are you sure that's what it is? How do you know? Usually I avoid generalisations. Some poodle x have fantastic owners and certainly most of them are very intelligent which can be bad if they're untrained or have been busy training their humans to let them get away with murder (neighbour's dog for example). And yes I've met more than one super aggressive poodle x. I've also met aggressive Labs and Golden Retrievers. Mostly because they've been allowed to barge up uninvited to every single dog they see and eventually when their puppy licence expires - have a very bad experience that turns them into a nasty dog. I've yet to find a poodle x breeder that actually delivers on their promises. And that isn't a puppy mill. That the dogs in that environment - get enough human contact and socialisation with other dogs and stay with their litter and mother long enough to learn good manners. I met a 10 week old French Bulldog at the beach the other day that was pretty much house trained when they got it home thanks to its breeder. I don't know of anyone doing that with poodle x etc. They don't do the dna tests to avoid PRA in the puppies or the hip tests to avoid hip problems. Steve MBA might disagree but that might be the "breed in development" - I don't know anything about those. And some ANKC breeders are just as bad when it comes to raising puppies, but most of them do the right thing. I can't say that about poodle x and etc breeders. And someone who buys one of those - what are they rewarding by that?

Ok, bearing in mind I've not used any of these behaviourists / trainers. The only one I have had a consult with was Steve Courtney on a visit to SA a few years back. He recommended NILIF (nothing in life is free) for my dog, I wasn't happy but let it go. He didn't make anything worse at least. To manage this dog's problem (minimise trouble) maybe NILIF, hand feeding all his food, and crate training (as per crate games dvd) might help. Ie need to stop him from harassing the other dog and the owner. Crates are good for that - once the dog has learned that it's a safe place to be full of good things for the dog (eg chews, toys, water...) So I did a course with WEA with Alexis from Scholars in Collars. She's based in Mt Barker (hills) but I think she travels and can recommend someone else if that's more convenient. Her training methods are based in the latest science and best practice. www.scholarsincollars.com.au There's also the two Traceys - one is a vet and the other is a trainer - they work in combination. Ie the dog gets checked for any physical problems and mental ones including anxiety... the dog might be medicated so it can be trained, ie calm the dog down with meds, then train it appropriate behaviours in the face of a trigger (eg other dogs), with the aim of getting the dog off meds. I went to a lecture they gave at the Port Adelaide Football club http://www.adelaideveterinarybehaviourservices.com.au/www/content/default.aspx?cid=733 One trainer I have met and have respect for her methods is a delta (reward based) trainer called Bodil Schou-Hansen http://www.petdogtraining.com.au/about-us/our-team/ Any of them should be able to recommend someone else who deals with the specific problems that your friend is having if they can't. Snook would be a good person to PM on the subject. She's been through some good trainers and bad ones and ones that might have been good if it wasn't for traumatic slip ups. PS Reprimanding an angry dog is often a good way to get bitten. I think dogs respond in the way they get treated. If one dog scolds another - the other dog scolds back. And then it can escalate. So dealing with the new dog harassing the older one, I think it best to stay calm, no yelling. Chances are the new dog may see the owner yelling as joining in and approving of the harassment. Or blame the other dog for it being reprimanded which escalates to "I get you before you get me". I would train "collar grab" - pair grabbing the new dog's collar with treats for the new dog. And if he starts harassing the other dog, collar grab (quietly and calmly, no treat and no scolding) and on lead until he calms down... then maybe release or loosen up on the lead to see what choice he makes. If he repeats the harassment of the other dog, he gets to spend time apart in another room or the crate. If he's too dangerous to try the collar grab training - I'd be taking him to the RSPCA or AWL or rescue ASAP. The old lady's skin is not worth being shredded over this. If the circumstances are explained, council or RSPCA would probably come and get this dog.

That's my point. you are probably right about them not ending up at pounds so much... or getting adopted soon after. However they do get neglected, untrained and impossible to live with. Maybe their owners have a little bit more money so can afford to find other ways to deal with their problem dog than dump them at the pound. My brother ended up with a GR x this way but he couldn't train it any better than the original owners who thought it would be a good companion to their autistic child. The dog was not supposed to grow bigger than a standard poodle. So my experience with the poodle x is really bad. The ones I meet at the park and the beach, very few are well trained. Tho with only 7% of dogs registered in SA receiving the "trained dog" discount - maybe I just have a conformation bias and they're all crap. And don't get me started on my neighbour's poodle cross. Sigh. One good thing - it barks so much that all barking within ear shot of its house - gets blamed on it. And I've seen photos of what ends up at the groomers with these non-shedding coats. Obviously only need clipping twice a year? And claw trim - why would we do that? The dog might not be in the pound but maybe it would be better off there where at least (the SA pounds) some questions are asked about the new home and support is provided.

Yeah I find that the most disconcerting thing about "designer breeds"... That they will get dumped or neglected along with last years fashion jeans and shoes. The people who want these dogs have no clue about how to look after a dog. Some are willing to learn but some just think the dog will adapt to their needs with no input or effort from them. And they absolutely choose for appearance and the "back story" - work of fiction on the part of the breeder about what the dog will be like. This is the kind of BS the cross breeders are peddling: What could possibly go wrong?

I reckon it's very similar. small to medium affectionate dog loves people, won't do what it's told if you don't train it with some dedication, LOVES FOOD (so ought to be easy to train). Doesn't mind being a lap dog. Usually great with children. Even naughty children.

Did anyone else read this as People who nip Shih Tzu ? Most herding breed puppies especially cattle dogs will do this if you don't train them not to. It's called "motion sensitive" if you want to google. If you put your head at ground level - you will see the behaviour probably starts as soon as the dog notices the motion. So you have to train the dog to do something else. You will see the trigger (bike or person) well before the dog does. So make sure the dog is on lead and has no opportunity (short lead) to reach or lunge at the trigger. If you can go somewhere where there are a lot of triggers but you can get far enough away that the dog can see the trigger but still pay attention to you. And then do some basic training drills, sit, drop, beg/pretty, nose touch (to your hand). All things the dog cannot do at the same time as chasing moving things. And things that keep the dog's attention on you. For my dog as a puppy, I would put her on lead if I saw the trigger first, and work tight heel work with lots of treats. If she lunged, I would prevent any kind of further approach but better if she never gets to lunge. But I'm not perfect. Sometimes I have to stop and pick up dog poop and I can't be watching her when I do that or I get dirty. So you would train the dog to behave better the same as if it was going after the vacuum cleaner, other dogs, or small children or cars (dead dog). Actually training the dog that the vacuum cleaner is not for chasing is really easy. Because you have full control over the vacuum, and you only move it when the dog is backed off. If the dog approaches - you stop moving the vac... There's part of a thread that addresses training side of motion sensitivity and reactiveness over here. http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/265379-topic-for-discussion-keep-it-nice-folks-%3B/page__view__findpost__p__6777899 Try to ignore the semantics and concentrate on suggested training methods eg balance between approach and retreat, and reward and not-reward, controlling the environment eg dog on lead, and distance from trigger, etc.

So as far as I know - rat lungworm comes from eating infected snails or slugs or stuff that snails and slugs have been sliming. So if you can reduce the snail/slug population or teach your puppy not to eat them that might help prevent it. My dog doesn't like slugs for some reason. The magpies are pretty happy to dispatch them and I suspect the population gets severely reduced during summer but - get a good rain storm and out they come. So what my mum does is put saucers of beer out (snail trap - might need to put this under a milk crate so the dog can't drink it) and she also goes out on damp/dewy nights with a torch and hand collects them. Myself - I don't bother unless they get into my vegies or things I don't want eaten.