flux

" Second Fear Period (8 - 16 Months) As puppies become what is called gangly, long legs due to growth spurts, they seem to become a little weaker in nerve than previously noted. It's strange sounds, new sights that often spook a dog more easily than just a week ago... It's at this time we need to be good leaders, when your dog baulks at a stairway, keep walking at full pace to show your pup all is ok. Coddling him when he shows fear will re enforce that fear & you will have to work to get over it later. More training now is crucial to his behavioural development." SO VERY TRUE!!! Seemingly overnight, Jazz (rough collie) who is now 8 months and a bit has started barking at most "noises" on the outside of the fence. In fact she actually employs barking as he response to most things that spook her, which the other day included a plant pot rolling about in the wind. Could I ask what you would recomend the best behaviour is from me when she shows this barking? I tell her to shush, "ah" noise, and generally poo-poo it with negatives, but I do get the feeling she seems to think it is her job to protect me and I obviously don't understand the severity of the rolling plant pot. I have avoiding coddling her when she does it, but at the same time feel she is getting too much attention from me when she does bark (with my coming over and shushing etc). I have tried ignoring her and letting her bark it out, but I feel like this merely reinforces her belief that yes, she is the ONLY one on patrol and taking care of plant pots and strange bangs on the outside of the fence. We walk her once in the morning, for about 20mins and once in the afternoon for about 20-45mins. We are learning painfully slowly how to be good leaders, we aren't perfect, but we do try (always reinforcing going through a door way first, walking on a loose lead, eating first and demanding good manners) even though she seems to have hit "selective hearing" and "knowing far better than us" age. Hope the background info helps, would love some advice on how best to respond to barking, I don't mind some barking but would hate to encourage it or create a terrible barker at EVERYTHING. Many thanks, your post has been exceedingly useful and was up on our kitchen wall when we first bought Jazz home at 8 weeks.

I second the "cheap" bed option! We bought ours from the two dollar shop, it didn't hurt so much watching her pull them to shreds that way . Another good bit of advice, cardboard boxes, an old sock with a tennis ball in it (knot tied in sock to stop ball from escaping), an old scarf tied into big and little knots, toilet rolls - all these things are fantastic toys to a puppy,and again don't hurt so much to watch them be destroyed lol. Good luck

Sorry no homemade remedies, but in case it's useful as an ingredient, we used Dencorub - but our puppy actually got a taste for it after a while, so we went onto tobasco sauce. Obviously not in amounts that would hurt a puppy's throat, just enough to be unpleasent.

It's working!! Took about a week of no real walks, only small short trips around the backyard, then eventually down the driveway and back. I could tell this lack of walking was frustrating for Jazz, so we tried our best to supplement by driving her to the oval for a run around (so we didn't have to put her lead on for a long amount of time) and playing ball in the backyard - but it paid off. A week of frustration and doubt, walking our 7 month old pup who clearly didn't "get" why we were stopping and starting, then after the week it started to click. Now we walk her with plenty of treats and we stop every time she pulls, but her attitude on the lead has changed dramatically. Thanks again for all the support, the method works, I really just needed to learn some patience and have some faith in my hound.

Best of luck, I hope mum and pup do really well. Beautiful looking mother, I love how she has her head over the pup slightly in the first photo, gorgeous.

Just some you tube footage of Jazz our rough collie pup. She's about 7 months old now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1WqYNjujCo http://www.youtube.com/user/Lethalporpoise...u/1/SNyRWuKzhfo http://www.youtube.com/user/Lethalporpoise...u/0/uLNwxwG1Y8Y (Note: ^ I only start to make grumbling noises towards the end! The rest is her!)

Too cute!

A tip of a carrot pushed right into the small hole at the top, push in about three chicken necks and fill the whole thing up with beef or chicken stock, and freeze. Voila

Ok I'm going to admit, this has really gotten to me, and I've actually cried a little bit reading this thread. I cannot thank you all enough for your immensly helpful advice or simply show of support. I was kind of on the right track, but then at the same time kind of off it. Watching the video clip has amazed me, I didn't actually believe the dogs who were "successful" with the whole stop and start would be a prancing, easily distracted GSDs - more proof that it's not the dog's problem at all, rather mine! Thank you so much for all your advice, I'm now going to follow all of your advice and be far more consistent and I'll let you all know how MY walking skills are progressing. Finally, smoothiegirl, thank you for your advice on the collie as a breed. We were told by the breeder that they were a "softly spoken" breed and that to shout at a collie would just put you in their dis-trust. Very slowly we are learning the true meaning of this. (We actually arn't the type to hit or yell at a dog - despite my obvious frustration in this thread) I have grown up around border collies, but we both decided on the rough collie as a pet because they seemed so gentle, clever and quiet (But with O' so much character) but i must admit having been used to a fawning border collie when it's been told "no" we've had to adjust to our rough who simply looks "hurt and confused" when you've told her off. I think we have created some distrust between us and her already though our mistakes, but we are learning. We had the realization that she wasn't really responding to being told off about 2 months ago and have changed how we handle her and there is already massive improvement between us. So fingers crossed (And thank goodness she is a dog and not a child) she'll forgive us and trust us again soon. So smoothiegirl, Have you had any experience with being "Herded" on a walk? Has anyone else got a herding breed and has experienced this? Sometimes I wonder if she is so confused with my lack of walking ability, it's her attempt to bridge the gap? Again, everyone, thanks so much P.S - I couldn't find a collie thread in Breeds 101? Am I looking in the right place? Edit - Found it!

Hi all, I'm having troubles with walking my pup (6.5 months), but I think in general I'm having a problem with discipline and sticking to a pattern. Walking: I find that I try hard to make sure the walk starts off nice and calm, with myself or my partner always leaving the "doorway" first - but then pulling ensues. So at first I would make her stop, sit and "look at me" before stepping off to walk again (always me first) - but pulling just ensues. I get a little more control with a fabric slip lead, but she is so fluffy (rough collie) that I find the lead sticks on tight and I don't actually think she can feel a difference in slack if she stops pulling. Also I am stopping a lot to make sure the slip lead stays nice and high on her head, which I think is just disrupting our "flow" if it is going right. And if she does see something fabulous (magpie, dog, puddle, sometimes random air particles) even on a slip lead she pulls until I'm really worried she'll hang herself. My confusion comes with what I keep doing to try and rectify the problems. With the slip lead, i put it up high and I can feel through the lead it squashing her throat :/ so I let it sit naturally and I can see that her fluff stops it from working effectively. So then I walk her with a "normal" lead on her collar and she just pulls all the time! I have tried changing direction, but to be honest sometimes the prospect of becoming entirely lost in a suburb does put me off these random deviations and I don't actually think she registers their intended purpose. We even took her for a walk somewhere completely different, she had never been there before (we went by car) and she still pulled as if she was in charge/knew where she wanted to go. I find I loose my temper pretty quickly, as walks are no longer any fun, in fact they now aggrivate a recent knee injury and to my horror i find myself aiming for the nearest off-leash area so she can walk well! Off leash I am very happy with her*, she basically ponders about beside me and sniffs about, goes for a bit of a dash but never goes far before coming back. So now I think, she has a very cranky owner when on the lead, and a very positive one when off and i get that i am only enhancing the problem - but how the heck do you get them to walk nicely on a lead? I half tried stopping when she pulled, but we never left the driveway - and i become conflicted with her need to let off some steam and to be walked properly on the lead. Should I really put aside half a day to walk stop-still-stop-still until she finally gets the picture? Will this actually get her to get the picture?? * this isn't entirely true. Off lead she has a habit of walking into you from the side (like heeling but with a bit of a push) to (I think) try and "herd" us. Whenever this happens i ignore her and keep walking where i was walking, knocking her snout most the time with my leg. My response however hasn't actually seemed to put her off the behaviour? Tips for a more physical-based herding breed? Other behaviour: At home I become conflicted with becoming angry at her behaviour and being forceful, or staying "cool" and coaxing her to do what I want. Let's take "come on out this room now, I'm leaving and I need to close the door". She knows the command "outside" which basically means head through a doorway, either in or out (i'm working on seperating the two, inside and out) but alas she won't do it. So I'm aware that this is a discipline problem and must be corrected, but my brain thinks okay, so "calm assertive" kind of use brain energy to suggest she leave - not happening, she just looks at me blankly (clearly i must work on my awesome brain power). So then i try the sweet voice of come on, lets make this a fun game, I'll reward you when you do what i want, and this usually works after the 3rd time of repeating yourself. Emotionally however, I want to march in there, grab her scruff and pointedly (not aggressivly, although I admit i am concerned this might be the start of agression in me) wheel her around and push her out the room - because I friggin' asked her once and if she doesn't do it I'll make her. Now, I am being very honest here, please don't view me as strict psycho. I am new to puppy training and one of the reasons I am writing this is so I can better how I am training her. My concern is that I am actually too angry too quickly and she is just becoming confused with my mixed messages (would you come to someone who is thinking they'd love to grab your scruff right now and march you out the room?). I also feel incredibly guilty about getting so frustrated, which I also think makes things messy for her understanding. Somedays I think - just do what you would do naturally, don't worry about what is right and wrong by someone else, this is your relationship with your dog. But I find i quickly become frustrated, and i personally feel like I don't actually have enough "set" rules for myself to follow. Like the walking, I don't actually believe stopping every time will help or work - this is the same thing, will getting angry/calm assertive/coaxing actually help? Which one to pick and stick to? Is it that I am flicking to all of them that is dooming either one to failure? When I am coaxing I feel like a joke, she is still waiting till the 3rd or 4th "plea" to do what I've asked. When I'm angry I feel like a bully, and if I'm willing to go and get her and force her to do what I'd like, then where is the incentive for her to do it herself, and who would like to do things for a bully? Please help! P.S "so "calm assertive" kind of use brain energy to suggest she leave - not happening, she just looks at me blankly (clearly i must work on my awesome brain power)" Lol not just staring at the dog, I move in and attempt to use body language and energy.

It's never too late with a dog. They love you unconditionally Don't worry so much and take it in your stride, you will, with your obvious commitment and ethusiasm have this pup well trained at the end of the day. What do you think you are doing so wrong?

Hi Carrie, Wedding went really well. We ended up asking a friend to basically be responsible for her the whole time. Groom happily came early to the location with the pup, and handed her over to this friend who then looked after her and made sure people and puppy were respectful of one another. She also took Jazz home for us, gave her her dinner I had made up the night before and made sure she peed. Fortunately Jazz has a wonder-bladder, and lasted well back at home while the friend went to our reception. Wedding went beautifully, unfortunately I don't have any photos back yet, but I will post some puppy-related ones when I do. Sure enough Jazz was bored and did her chatty howly-bark-whinge right after we said "I do" but for us personally this just made us and the guests laugh. A corella actually swooped over the gathering squarking away during the ceremony too, but it wouldn't of been my wedding without the animal input lol. Slight problem in that my OH got attacked by plovers/lapwings walking her to the grounds lol but fortunately they weren't around the ceremony area. Thanks so much for the advice, I would reccomend 100% having someone (who is willing) to be totally in charge. At one point I had to just call my friend over (who was brilliant) for a quick snap with the dog, then ask her to leave again as we went to a non-dog friendly location. No-way could we of had any family or bridal party looking after her it would of been too demanding of them with photos, other guests etc. Thanks again all, will post photos when I can

Just want to add that I have this problem, except jazz was brilliant on the lead at first until seeing a dog, and now she just pulls all the time and looks forwards to seeing other dogs. Very frustrating, we tried taking little pieces of cheese with us during the walk, but other dogs are just too interesting. I'm going to hit up the butcher tomorrow. Hopefully I'm not taking over the focus of this forum and that my next question will be adding to it; with regards to "walking the other way" when they pull (this might seem a stupid question) but we are usually heading to an oval to allow her to let off some steam, would you all go so far (if the dog is pulling on the lead) to completely turn around and just walk around the block instead (a much shorter walk?). I always get torn between "well she doesn't seem to be getting a decent walk now" and maybe if "she ran off some energy she wouldn't pull so much" am I being completely sucked in by my puppy? I hate to admit it but I also feel "bad" for not letting her meet other dogs (when appropriate) and kind of think "she's just a puppy, she probably should be meeting other dogs than walking nicely" argh i can't believe I just typed that, I think I just solved that one for myself. I guess meeting dogs at puppy school is a good time for that, and not on walks. Great topic, it's been really useful to read, and Serket I LOVE the description of "bitey face"

Hi there, I just wanted to add in that when we brough home Jazz our rough collie, we were a bit worried about her lack of motivation. She would seriously chew something meekly for half a minute then go all snoozy. My parents (who own a border collie) actually mocked us and our sedate little rough collie, but I found she was pretty happy to sleep and chew n chase in slow motion right up until about 13-14 weeks, then she finally seemed to get more energy. Ha ha I can remember her walking brilliantly on a lead with us as a young pup and thinking "oh yeah I'm the lead master" then yeah, she got older, found her feet and energy and we are back to square one!! Now it's zoomies on a walk, zoomies after lunch and heck more zoomies in the afternoon because the sun is shining. (zoomie is a great word I've poached from a few on this board, love it!). So I would say with my limited experience, enjoy the calm and encourage it and get ready to enjoy the next more busy stage

Jazz sleep in our laundry, but I'm hoping to migrate her to the bedroom when she's older. I can remember being 16 and sleeping with our old dog, I miss that lovely feeling

Hi all, Thanks very much for all the replies and help. I think I should revert back to my more primal grunts and "arghs" of dissaproval and probably consider my own energy output levels too. We try to keep her busy, she usually gets a walk in the morning OR a walk in the evening, but ideally we would like to give two a day, just are trying to get our own lives organised a bit better first, so that will probably go a long way to keeping her brain a bit tired. I feed her after a walk or after some training/tricks and for lunch she always gets food in a treat ball (the cool square dice one that takes a bit more to get stuff out) or gets a kong full of chicken or bone also in an attempt to keep her busy. Her toys get rotated and I try to keep things interesting toy-wise. The only downfall again is that she is alone for most of the day now apart from a brief lunch visit, so I think yeah she probably still has too much time to sit and ponder the wonders of what is on the cabinet I am thinking that a certain walk in the morning would help. I just was surprised my angry "Bad dog" yell didn't have an effect, but thinking about it my energy was probably more unhinged and angry than "in control", and with more wearing down on her part she should be less inclined in the first place. lol sorry typing out loud there. Thanks all

Thanks Nekhbet - I had been attempting to growl, but this gets even less a response. I don't think I have the right attitude behind the noise?? Are you angry when making the negative noise? i wonder if I'm too angry to be taken seriously, maybe need to be more firm than angry?? And yes, I've been moving her too, but thanks again it's great to have some feedback.

Hi all, Jazz, our 4 month old puppy doesn't seem to do much wrong. We try very hard to keep her walked, fed, trained and stimulated (plus loved) and for the most part any un-wanted behaviour can be very quickly re-directed and corrected - until - she's now discovered the joys of pinching things off our cabinet in the one room in the house she is allowed in, the kitchen. So I figure, puppy learning here, i better keep my eye about her and catch her in the act. Because she will be such a big girl I really wanted to hammer jumping up onto tables (front feet only at the moment) as a big negative, so finally I catch her jumping up and I leap up and sounding very angry I growl out a BAD DOG!.... to very little effect. In fact our charming princess looked back at me blankly as if to say "man what's your problem?" not even a glimmer of "Oh, did I do something wrong?" as she casually jumps down, possibly more from confusion/bemusement than anything else. Unfortunately, so surprised by her lack of reaction to what I thought was a great "bag dog" and seeing as she did get down (although I think for all the wrong reasons) I didn't do anything further. I had a similar problem when she was younger, when she decided barking at me was great, she did it once and I quipped back a "no" then to my surprise she barked back her "No"louder, so I barked again and we went back and forth until I realised that I must not be angry/firm/serious enough (or possibly too wound up and angry to be taken seriously??). So after hearing about the sound of a rolled up newspaper on a hand and it's effect on barking, I set up the situation again, and this time when the "no" "game" started I tried again to silence it by myself, but resorted to smacking the newspaper against my hand while saying "No" and that seemed to get through instantly and she backed down looking shocked. After that she seemed to give me a lot more respect, and she has never barked at a person "in that way" since. I now feel that this is a bit of the same situation. I don't think she knows a "no". She knows "leave it" and "wait" that are I guess a "negative" in that they ask her to wait a while or give something up and she's pretty good with them, but when it boils down to it I don't think I have anything to basically be the ultimate BAD DOG, i.e soooo not impressed, never do that again. I wondered where I am going wrong. I am a big believer in saying what you mean, and don't pretend to be cross, when I'm cross with her I'm really cross and I try very hard to project a whole "leader is angry with you" - yet it's clear from her behaviour that I must not any sort of leader in her view. I'm a bit confused as to what else to do. I would like her not to do something because I/we dissaprove, not simply because we've re-modelled the house around her (although a point to make here is that I do understand she is learning and i have removed all temptation from the cabinet, this is more about her reaction to my energy/vibe/command). Any views on this one? What am I missing here? Thanks!

Wedding pre-shoot is an awesome idea too, but alas I have to keep my dress a surprise!

Hi all, Thanks for the comments, feedback and congratulations! I forgot to mention that we would only have her for the ceremony and for photos, then we would get someone to take her back home for us. I'm going to have a good think about who might be happy to hold the pooch (and be prepared to hang back a bit when people swarm) I think some really good points have been raised though, so many thanks. I'm thinking if she's not there for at least the photos we will be dissapointed and miss her, so I'm not sure if we could exclude her entirely. If it were cooler I'd leave her in a car with the windows down for the 20mins of the ceremony, but yeah, I'm worried and predict it will be really hot, ha, or hailing - go Canberra. I'll let you know more updates as we figure them out, but would still love to hear everyone's 2 cents on the subject!! I'm not entirely sure why I'm making it much more complicated, I was the one who wanted to elope!

Hi all, I'm going to be getting married in December, and we both would love Jazz our (will then be) 5 month old rough collie to join us. She won't be a ring bearer (the temptation to run after ducks once off the lead would be too much!) but it would be really nice to have her there. So, I wondered if anyone else has attempted such folly with such a young dog? We are still 50/50 if it goes ahead, as we are sure she would be pretty well-behaved sitting with my father, but after we say I do and everyone is excited I'm pretty certain she is going to be REALLY excited and I don't think guests would appreciate a hyper-active puppy, and i don't think my father would enjoy standing aside with the dog! Suggestions and ideas most welcome

My 2 cents: There are some things with Jazz that we boldly "claimed" as ours right from the start - to my amazement and with very little effort she totally respects piles of our washing and the fridge contents. Likewise with some others who've posted all we had to do was "claim" it and mean it. I am a big Cesar fan and deliberately tried to pick a calm puppy from the start so we wouldn't have to compete with an "energy" that was too much for us personally. Saying this however, I have noticed with our friend's dog that yes an abandoned bone is a free for grabs bone and I do wonder if my washing smelt like dried kangaroo tail, if I would be having the success I am currently! So there are some things I think, well I wouldn't even ask a 2 year old human kid to ignore that if I left it on the table (i.e I don't leave my rubber thongs in the dog zone / wouldn't leave giant pile of cookies in front of toddler and tell them no) so I try to reason up what I'm asking my pup to ignore with how old she is and how much she knows/can learn. So we kind of do a bit od everything, we ask her to respect that the washing basket and clothes are ours, but we don't deliberately leave favorite books on the floor to "claim" them and try and prove a point - what is the point. I hope that might help you out, your puppy is very cute

Thank you both for your excellent advice. I'm going to step up on calling her to come and I'm going to make a much longer rope for her too. Thanks again! Faye

I'm really sorry this - "and also if something really interesting just happened. When that happends you can see she has obviously become totally distracted but even in this case I am still impressed because this hasn't really happened in a while now" - was garbled nonsense. What I meant to say was that she will also hesitate to come when called a bit in the garden if something really exciting/distracting is going on, but she will usually come back 98% of the time and I think it's getting better and better. Very sorry, I should of re-read my post a few more times!!!

Hi all, I am wondering how to teach my rough collie to come back when called. In the house/garden she is very good, if she doesn't come to her name we squeak a favourite toy and then when she does come we call her name and praise her. She's now 14 weeks old and I think she is doing pretty well with this, only hesitating if she knows you are about to shut her away for the night (we've been working on this by sitting with her for a bit with a good chew stick, so it's not such a "come here and get left") and also if something really interesting just happened. When that happends you can see she has obviously become totally distracted but even in this case I am still impressed because this hasn't really happened in a while now. BUT - Outside on a walk off lead - see's another dog/bird/person/sniff she will not come to us when we call her. She has never run off and she always follows us about off the lead, but an interesting sniff and we might turn the other way and call her and she will finish her sniff THEN come. The same problem usually happens on lead too, she normally walks quite well on her lead, but if there's another dog/sniff/person she pulls. We have only let her off about three times now, but I think we might have fallen into a bit of a trap. I feel like she is fast learning "eh so what if I don't come straight away when I'm called?". We've decided to keep her on her lead now, but to be honest I'm not sure when I could be able to let her off and expect a good recall response. How did you all teach your dogs to come when called off the lead? How did you all know "the time was right" to let them off and feel they would come back when you called? Is this related to a dominance thing, do we need to be more in control on a walk? Or is it a desensitize thing? We were thinking we might go back to our oval where the dogs are and sit quietly and not let her off, i think she would go beserk on the lead but the point I would be trying to make is "No, you calm down and sit with us (because that's what we are doing and what we are asking of you) THEN you can go play" - but is this too much to ask of a puppy, I kind of feel it is a bit - if that's the case what are some of your opinions on what to reccomend? Many thanks, I would be happy to hear a variety of opinions and methods. ;) Oh! Finally, We tried (albeit VERY briefly) to tie a long rope around her collar and let her off, thinking we could call her, then reel her back in if she hesistated to confirm she must come back - but it was just chaos. With other dogs <or insert other exciting situation here> she just was madly running about and practically hanging herself on the rope. I felt she didn't actually get what was going on at all, so i abandoned it. Too soon? should of perservered? Thanks!