shortstep

Know nothing about guard dogs (is that the right word for their work?) but have a question, does the military or do hard protection handlers/trainers shop for dogs on DOL? Edited to say...Opps I see they are called Hard Protection dogs..sorry about the use of the word guard. lol. Is DOL a non-working dog forum now? People who need working dogs will obviously use DOL as a means to acquire them, not sure if you know exactly how military/police dogs are actually acquired, but most of them are from normal breeders (even show lines sometimes), and there are general security firms who would also seek out such dogs, not to mention, working dog enthusiasts. Interesting to know the military shops for their hard protection dogs on DOL. I would have thought they would have had connections with breeders who only work in this type of dog. Even using show dogs for this sort of work, very interesting indeed. I am just so surprised that dogs for such a potentially dangerous interface with the public, would be so randomly acquired. Anyway back to under my rock where the unknowing should always stay on DOL.

Know nothing about guard dogs (is that the right word for their work?) but have a question, does the military or do hard protection handlers/trainers shop for dogs on DOL? Edited to say...Opps I see they are called Hard Protection dogs..sorry about the use of the word guard.

Don't panic, it will all work out! Just a thought. You say you are going to Brisbane... Could you take a really good pic of each pup. Perhaps someone in Brisbane can call their vet and find out how much to desex boy/girl pup, making sure they would have time next week to do it. Then put up ads all over the web for the pups for pick up in Brisbane, do an ad for each pup with the photo so they can see how cute they are! Price them at the cost of desex and they can pick them up at the vets post surgery next week while you are there? Not sure where to put the ads but I am sure people on here will know where. Perhaps some of the breeders on DOL could put a page on their web site about the pups to advertize them too??

Kazzie, I do not think you have done the worst thing on earth, however I do think that you can do better and will want to do better. It is your choice, but I do believe you when you say you want to do the right thing. As Steve points out, labs can have more than a few diseases. 1. I think you should take some of the sales proceeds and use it to DNA test the parents for PRA and any other DNA tests for labs, this should be done now. 2. I think it would be a very good idea if you took the parents and the pups at 7 weeks for a certified eye exam. Copies to pup buyers. 3. You say had xrays taken, you should be able to have an ortho look at these xrays and write an evaluation, copies of this on both parents should be given to the new owners. 4. You need to educate yourself and then your owners in writing on how to raise pups for the first year to reduce their risk of HD ED and OCD. This means correct diet and calcium levels and proper controlled exercise. 5. You say the parents are pedigreed, have you contacted the breeder/s in an attempt to get a health history of the parents? Have you looked for other relatives to get health history? If not then you need to find someone who can help you do this, and all information needs to be given the pup buyers. I was under the impression that pet stores did not give out reg papers with their dogs??? So there was no way to trace them back to the breeder? I am sure there will be other constructive measures that any breeder of labs normally does to assure they have done all they can to breed healthly pups (this is not my breed). It is your choice to make up this part. I believe you will do it and we can and will help you along the right path.

Shame on you! How do you record the weight? I have never weighed a pup at birth in almost 20 years of breeding so I do not need neck bands. LOL

Like Pedigree dogs exposed was a good swat on registered breeders? I think we need to face reality, there are plenty of bad breeders with a prefix. Bashing unregistered breeders does nothing to defend or imporve registered breeders that are often doing the same things the accuse the unregistered breeder of doing.

There are an awful lot of registered breeders that will not do all or any of these things. They do not pass out halos with a prefix. Being registered to breed KC dogs does not mean the breeder is is doing all the right things. In a recent post all breeders of a large breed known for HD ED PRA and heart were not doing any health testing and no gaurantees. Maybe we should worry more about cleaning up our own house? If we do don't clean it up, it will be done for us by the governement and animal rights people and the Uni. Anyway back on topic, unregistered breeders are bad bad bad. Now lets see, what did the uni of syd say about breeding dogs outside of the ANKC?? Oh yea they are selling semen from a dog from the pound (just for you J).

You have a bit of it. Working BC seem to have some amount of laxity of the hip as part of the breed. One hypothesis is that hips that sublux slightly in the joint allow for the movement and style of working that is highly regarded and selected for in the BC. So in effect loose hips have been selected for over the last 100 years. However at the same time dogs that did not remain sound were not bred from, so the selection was further refind. In effect dogs with loose hips that remained sound were selected for. In most breeds loose hips mean the dog gets a lot of destruction to the joint and lameness follows (like in labs). PENN measures laxity of the joint. PENN has proven a very good indicator in these breeds of the likelihood of HD at maturity. However there are some breeds that PENN has not been as effective in predicting HD and BC is one of the breeds. Again showing that the loser hip in the BC may not indicate future HD. There is other evidence, but this is the general idea. I have not heard any of this applies the keplies.

It seems a pity to me to have to pick, although I know it is necessary to some degree in all breeds. But my main point is, you don't really know how good hips are if you don't x-ray, so you can't make a fully informed choice. Sure, you can pick the dogs with really crappy hips (they show clinical signs!) But you can't tell the borderline hips from the good ones from the excellent ones based on performance - they all just look normal. It's the same problem they're having in NZ huntaways now. Great dogs, bred purely for working ability for the last few hundred years by people who (by and large) breed pretty carefully for a dog that can work all day, you'd think they'd have damn good hips. A recent survey of farmers has just shown that there is a considerable problem with hip dysplasia (among other things) turning up in the breed. Would better pedigree keeping have helped? I bet it would! But I also think x-rays would have done a lot as well. I've rambled too long - sorry OP - this isn't really on topic for you (unless you choose to breed at some point, I guess!) I agree with Lilli that doing pedigree research will be very, very helpful to someone in your situation. It just also makes me cranky that the breeders in Aussie & NZ aren't using all available tools out there to ensure they're producing healthy pups. Dogs can have very bad hips and show no signs of lameness or poor gait, some breeds are rather well know for this. You only know by taking xrays. Breeding for work does not exclude HD in most cases (greys may be the exception). Recently I saw on a Finland web site that 25% of the Kelpies in Finland have HD (both working and show lines), these are direct and recent imports. Yet here the word on HD is they do not get HD and many breeders never check their dogs. There are few facts about HD that we know. One fact is, breeding dogs with HD have a higher rate of HD puppies. Breed 2 dogs with HD and the pups almost always have HD. HD has multiple genes we know this now. It likely has risk factors as well as direct genes. Environment and diet can not on their own cause HD, but they can cause HD to be expressed more severely. It is believed that controlled diet and exercise can mask HD (decrease severity). There is no excuse in my opinion to not check hips, especially in breeds that have an affected rate of more than 1 in 10 dogs. Large breeds that often have very high rates of affected dogs should be checked. Checking hip scores is a part of the information used to make a decision by the breeder about the worthiness of the dog in their breeding program. It is true that in a few breeds that have very high affected rates, it would likely be necessary to breed affected dogs. However the breeder needs to make the high risk and use of affected dogs known to the buyer. Stating they do not test as it is not a problem in the breed, when it is know to be in the breed world wide, to me is very poor practice and is not in the best interest of purebred dog breeders in general.

Just a sweeping statement, but if this is a large breed and known to have fairly high rates of HD and ED (ED has even higher rate of inheritence than HD) and you want to do agility, then I would give the breed a pass. Even a pup from tested parents would be too big a risk in my point of view. A large breed in agility will need excellent joints. Did you look up the rate of affected dogs on OFA? If you do not know how to do it PM me. I import and it is expensive. Even in my breed where there are not too many diseases that you can not test for in puppy hood ( like HD), I only import young adults so they can be tested and I know what sort of dog they have grown into. Cost run 10-12,000 and up, from the UK, most of that is shipping, then DNA and health testing and AQIS, price of dog is the minor part. Importing from the US/Canada requires a 5 month waiting period prior and 1 month quarrantine or up to 6 months in quarrantine, so I stick to the UK, Norway, Sweeden and Finnland.

What does your guarantee do for the owner with dog with a genetic disease? Is the guarantee more extensive for a disease you have not tested for yet?

Hence my question, are there any problems in the lines that are here, the dogs came from somewhere? are the lines clear. You can not guess that because some near or distant relatives did not have HD that the line is clear of HD. In breeds where the disease has a moderate or high rate, lets say a rate of 1 in 8 or higher, it is pretty well accepted that most if not all dogs in the breed will carry at least some of the genes for HD. Therefore each pup, in each breeding and certainly every dog in the next generation has at least the breed average risk of having HD even if from several generations of clear parents. You must screen every dog that is bred and as many of it's siblings and it's offspring as possible in each generation if there is any hope to decrease the affected rate in the breed. Furbabies If any of the dogs or kennel lines come from the US or Canada, you can use the OFA search engine to look for the kennel. Keep in mind it is voluntary reporting and most people to not report affected dogs.

With out knowing the breed and how severe or frequent (% of breed affected) of the diseases makes it almost impossible to make judgment. For example if HD is known at a high rate throughout the breed, then even if the parents are screened clear, it would still be fairly likely the pup could have HD (though affected parents do have a higher rate of producing HD affected pups than clear parents). So then the question really becomes how important is it to have a dog free of HD? If however the affected rate is fairly low, say less than 1 in 8 dogs, then having an affected parent will certainly increase the odds of an affected pup, so screened parents would greatly increase your chances of a normal pup. As to not wanting to eliminate any dogs from the gene pool so therefore there is no point in testing? I have never heard that method given merit in limited gene pools. If it is planned to use affected dogs due to limited gene pool, atleast knowing you are breeding an affected dog would allow you to pick an unaffected mate for the litter. For many diseases you can breed affected dogs to DNA normal dogs with no fear of producing the disease. Certainly breeding 2 dogs with HD together is going to produce many affected offspring, that is not doing the breed, the owners or the pups any favours. A good future for the breed would seem bleak.

I am so sorry, I hope they find out soon what is causing the pain. Could it be a spinal injury?

I would not have asked if you own or rent, I have never asked that question, so would not have come up with me.

If the mobile is your daytime contact number, then I would be happy with that. If somebody is working, then they are usually being paid to do a job, not to sit around on company time chatting about their new pet. But it is reasonable to require a new adopter or puppy buyer to be easily contactable. GayleK, you have built up relationships with the breeders of your dogs, but pet owners often come along who are totally unknown. It isn't realistic to apply your own standards to those of the average pet owner, who will not be posting puppy pictures all over the internet for their breeder to see. You have the dogs that you want, but by referring more inexperienced potential dog owners to pounds to buy dogs instead of rescue you will significantly reduce their chances of getting a good dog. If breeders and rescue organisations make an effort to act professionally and openly, and follow privacy legislation, new dog owners generally do feel comfortable in handing over the necessary personal information to be able to be matched with a dog. That was my experience anyway. Nice post! I did rescue for many years, one of my main goals is to make sure that any pup I breed never ends up in an animal shelter. I have for the past 20 years done this. If am not comfortable with someone, they do not get my pup. I do not have hard and fast rules about who gets a pup. I do not ask for references, however I do ask about where they go/what they do with their dogs like sports, who do they know in the doggy world and who they train with. I know enough dog people around that I can usually find out about them this way, and I do look into who they are, how they treat their dogs, and if they are kind and responsiable. If people with hold information or lie to me, then I will not place with them, even if what they lied about would not have been issue, the lying is a big issue for me. If others feel this is too controlling so be it. I only have my own goals to measure up to when placing my pups and so far I am meeting those goals, all of my dogs have very loving and forever homes.

In NSW, if you fail to transfer the dog into your name, your NSW breeder is liable for failing to follow the Companion Animal Act laws. I know as made this mistake. I was contacted by my shire about a couple of my pups, pups I had placed over a year ago. Turned out the new owners had never sent in the paper work to transfer the dogs and it was still in my name. I was legally responsiable to have made the transfer into the new owners name/address, it is agasint the law to sell a dog in NSW without transfering the chip to the new owner. They did not prosecute me, and we got it all straightened out in the end. It seems that many new owners will not transfer the dog into their name, for several reasons. One being they may have too many dogs and not want the shire to know about this dog, they many not want to pay to register the dog in their shire and so on. That is why the law says that the seller has to do the transfer into the new owners name.

Agree Wazzat, If people want to pick up the pup and never speak to me again then they are not the people I want to place with. I do follow my pups for their whole life.

You are wrong at least in NSW. It is the sellers legal responsiablity to transfer the microchip into the new owners name/address phone numbers and so forth and the buyer must sign that paper work too. This is to happen either when the chip is put in or prior to, or if the chip in breeders/sellers name then all the forms to change have to be done buy the seller and signed buy, then buyer legally had to send into the local shire who trasfers to the new shire. I always wait to put the chip in until I know where the pup is going and it is done directly into the new owners name/information, the info is then sent to my shire by my vet, who then transfers to the new shire, copy to the owner and a copy to me and copy at my vet. edit to add; copy to Dogs NSW when doing registration.

You would seriously pass over a home because they didn't want to give you a WORK number? Would you seriously not buy a dog just because the breeder wanted a work number for the microchip? Yes I would pass if they wanted to keep that a secret. I do have people that have given me their husbands or wifes work number if their job is such that then can not be contacted in an emergency. Have also had most people give me another persons number for emergencies too, like neighbor or friend. I have had doctors, lawyers, writers, reseachers, professors, professional dog trainers, nurses and even a judge as owners. I think I know just about what every one of my owners do if they work, can't see what the big deal is. When I worked they all knew what I did and they all had my work number in case they need to call me during work hours. BTW I do not have a set group of things/questions I ask my buyers, I do not ask them where they work for example as part of deciding if they are a good home for example. But if we reach a point where they want to own one of my pups I beleive they seem a good home, I would stop if they bolted at me wanting to know work contact information, where do they work ABC Puppy Mill or Animals for Reserch Center some other place I would find terriable? Who knows but it would put me off. However I have never had this happen. Most people just say what they do for a living as a matter of conversation. I do not think the people that have my dogs think I am bent on knowing personal information but I also don't think they beleive me knowing where they work would be a big deal. I am sure there are many breeders or sellers of pups who never ask any questions at all.

wow, i imagine you have trouble getting people who meet those exacting standards. i would not give my work number as i have a mobile which is on 24/7 so no need for my work number to be on a microchip. it is also a problem if i change jobs because i would then have to update the microchip info each time. the more i hear about rescue the less i would get a dog from them. same here. It would be a cold day in hell before I'd approach a rescue group about a dog after reading some of the conditions. And I would not recommend it to others either. Go to the pound or RSPCA instead. You need to read, I am a breeder not a rescue group.

Just looked through my email address, more than half (maybe 2/3rd) of my owners have at least 2 email address, with the second in almost all cases a work email. Since I never add email addresses, they must have email me from that work address for it to be listed in my contacts. BTW Would also say that more than half the inquires I get for pups come from work email address. Had one today from a Uni vet center for example.

wow, i imagine you have trouble getting people who meet those exacting standards. i would not give my work number as i have a mobile which is on 24/7 so no need for my work number to be on a microchip. it is also a problem if i change jobs because i would then have to update the microchip info each time. the more i hear about rescue the less i would get a dog from them. No it has not been a problem, I can not think of one time it has been a problem either and I have been breeding for 20 years, chipping for about 12 years. In fact I have a large number of owners that email me or call me or ask me to call them at their work place on a regular basis.

I put both work and home phone numbers of the new owner on the microchip information. If giving me their work number is a problem for the potential new owner I would certainly respect that, but I would find another home for the pup where that was not a problem.

Border collies come in both smooth and rough and both coats are crossed around the world, in kennel clubs and working registries. Rough is recessive and smooth is dominate. Only exception is the ANKC where they only accept rough coat. Which is very odd as the smooth coat is by far and away the most common and functional coat for the real working border collies in Australia. ANKC also only accepts Tri colour on black dogs, when the whole world knows and accepts it appears on all colours and there is no reason on earth to care if a dog of any colour is tri. ANKC also does not accept many of the other colours found in the breed and are registered world wide wide.