shortstep

Agree Jed. Also, if they just kept the legislation on the one topic of no dogs for sale in pet shops, instead of adding/slipping on a bunch of other animal rights issues like clover Moore did.

That is just super!

You need a breeder of this breed to chime in. I took a quick look and did not see any DNA tests for these eye diseases in this breed. Most of these eye problem will be of the type that the parent can be free of the disease but can carry a gene for it. Meaning they can pass it on to their offspring but they do not have the disease. Also the parents may be clear of the disease at the time of breeding but developed symptoms later in life. Assuming the breeder had current eye exams prior to breeding the parents and they were clear at that time, I do not see what else they could have done. Nothing will assure that a pup will not get these disease until such time as there is a DNA test. At this point, now she is aware that both of the parents are carriers, she should not repeat that breeding. However it may be very appropriate that the dogs are bred again, but to different dog. This will depend on the number of dogs in the breed that are carriers of the disease. Removing every carrier from the gene pool, if that number is even as high as 25% of the dogs, will lead to many more health problem by reducing the gene pool and increasing the concentration of the same genes (good or bad and hidden). What you need to do is notify the breeder of the problems. If the parents were screened prior to breeding, then you can not blame her that it happened. There would be no way she could have known (provided they were not bred together before and produced it). Maybe she should have warned you that the breed in general is prone to these problems, or she may have but it did not really sink in during the excitement of getting your puppy. There is heaps of information on this breed on line you can check into, much of it about health problems, breeding guidelines and potential outcomes. I am sure others on here will have first hand experince and be able to share some information.

Was looking for the results of the survey, are they ready yet and if so where can they be found? Thanks

It was a needlessly dramatic and ridiculous thing to say. Of course I saw humour in it. Evidently we're all doomed to be eaten alive by 'attack dogs' anyway, so why not have a giggle before my arms are ripped off? You talk about BSL like you were the sole person fighting against it, but it was over-emotive, deliberately ignorant and uninformed dribble (of similar calibre to what you're spouting about 'attack dogs' now) that drove the legislation in the first place. You don't seem to be taking in any of the posts made by people who are actually involved in the fields of protection and associated dog sports, so much as twisting them to suit your own warped perception that anything described as drivier than an unconscious pug is a killer. The word 'aggressive' isn't just a description for hostile or violent behaviour. Thesaurus.com (for want of a better example) also offers assertory, bold, brassy, cheeky*, cocky*, come on, domineering, dynamic, energetic, enterprising, flip*, forceful, fresh*, get up and go, go after, hard sell, imperious, masterful, militant, nervy, pushing, pushy, sassy, shooting from the hip, smart alecky, smart*, strenuous, tough, vigorous, zealous... Schutzhund and other areas of so-called "protection training" revolve around insanely high levels of obedience and control over the dog before they move onto bite work - which makes up a tiny fraction of what they're trained to do. One of the most important aspects of bite work is teaching the dog to let go. A dog that's aggressive in the way you keep describing would not be able to do that. What you're describing as an 'attack dog' is no more a protection trained animal than my local butcher is a dentist. *Any* dog in the hands of an idiot could be "trained" to be the sort of 'attack' animal you keep describing. That's not an issue with GSDs, protection work, the ANKC or any other topic raised here except for irresponsible dog ownership. Look I lived right next to and worked in an area call the Hilltop Tacoma, look it up on you tube and watch a couple of videos of the hood and then tell me again what I should think.

So is your picture a dog playing a tug or an attack dog at work? It is a picture of a Labrador playing tug. Thanks!!

If I see the topic of 'aggression in ads and what it means to me about dogs in Australia differently than you do, I must surely be wrong or at the very least uneducated. I understand. Yes you are right, I should just be quiet and listen to what the self proclaimed pro attack dog trainers are telling me as the truth as they know it. And I have listened, I now know that when I meet a not very good but thinks he is a pro attack dog trainer, I will know the difference when his dog rips me half and then will not call off. So that is an education that has changed everything for me. Anyway I am not sure I just want to be educated. Maybe I would rather share information, experiences and points of view. You know like equals thrashing over a lot of information where there are many opinions. I may not know how to train attack dogs, but I do know how I feel. Right now I am person who would not vote to ban all attack dogs but I would vote that only trained registered handlers could own them or train them. I am sure this will work everyone up into a lather. But what you might find more interesting is I had no thought of any opinion on that subject until reading this thread. So at least in my case your education has help to form opinions, likely not the opinions you wanted. Back to the original topic, I would have not liked to see any breeder use words like aggression in their ads to the general public (and I do not care what aggression means in attack dog talk), but would not want to make a rule about it. I have read why you and others think that is good, but I still disagree. Why? Because purebred dogs and dogs in general are under enough threat as it is without promoting them as human attack dogs. Some times discretion is the better part of valor. I would think that Valor in attack dog handler and trainer would be a very very important trait. Not twisting anything. Anyway I am off for a day so not avoiding the topic, just out of town.

So is your picture a dog playing a tug or an attack dog at work?

What, like David Attenborough? Peering through gaps in a broken, graffiti covered fence? "... and here we see the bogan discovering the 'pitbull' for the first time... he immediately commences 'attack training' on the untamed beast..." There's a whole world of difference between a well bred dog trained properly in protection (or any other sport) and a malcontent in "the hood" with an uncontrolled snarling mutt. Prior to people using the breed to finish off their bad ass image, with a hand gun in the house and a pit chained to the front door, they were not viewed as 'agressive' dogs. I did watch this for 20 years, it was very sad to see the first time the breed was banned due to these people who had miss used these poor dogs. Sorry you see humor in it.

Yes misinformation is dangerouse. I know the ANKC has said they do not allow dogs to be trained for attack work on humans. Is it legal (all states or which ones) for anyone to train dogs for attack work on humans or is there some sort of government oversight of this sort of training? What is required to hang up your shingle? Can any one own a dog that had been trained to attack humans in Australia? Or do you have to be licensed, permits by governement, any oversignt at all on who owns these dogs? In every state bar Victoria anyone can own a dog trained in Personal Protection. In Victoria you must hold a security licence to own a trained Personal Protection dog. The crazy part is a well trained personal protection dog is far safer than an untrained dog (which any Victorian can own) as you have both full control and experience on the trained dogs side. The untrained dog will be unpredictable and will bite on its own accord. All dogs can bite, so before anyone complains about trained 'attack' dogs, ask yourself if you have to be bitten, which would you prefer, by one that is trained and under control or one that will do what ever it wants.......'Attack' training is very misunderstood just like the term 'aggression' is. As per the video clip in my previous post not all "attack" dogs are dangerous..... well trained balanced ones are only when they are called upon. So if anyone can own and train attack dogs (except in Vic), why would you think that is safe. Seems that 'anyone' could easily be training incorrectly, selecting the wrong type of dog or managing their dogs in a unsafe mannor. I watched as the pitbull was discovered in the hood. They were all owner taught attack dogs and it was and still is far from safe. Here we are 30 years later. Two wrongs do not make a right. I do not want to be bitten by any dog but if I had to pick I would prefer to be bitten by a untrained dog. No way I would want a well practiced attack dog takeing me down with "anyone" on the other end of the leash. I always fear people a lot more than dogs.

Not that I think you really mean what you saying, clearly it is not a case of shit happens. I do not have a small dogs, so no small dog syndrom here. for that matter I may not even have a dog with me at all and be in the dog park. If I ask someone to call their dog away from me and I claim to be frighten and beleive the dog is going to bite me, and the owner fails to call that dog away from me. It will not be a matter of shit happening in the real world. Out of control dogs are out of control dogs, anywhere and any size dog, even out of control big dogs that have big dog syndrom.

Exactly, that is why I posted my way to resolve this issue. Some people never get it, that their dogs are out of control and I am not please by being approched by their out of control dogs. Who knows what is in their minds. But I do know that most people will understand that, when a person screams out 'get your dog away from me, I am frighten of your dog, your dog is trying to bite me", that they will take notice of this, will not argue, will get their dog and will beat a fast retreat. As I said, it works like a charm every time. Big or small dogs, smart or stupid owners, it works. edited to add, Just wanted to say, First I pick up my dog (if possible) or block the path to my dog, then I call out 'call your dog away from me' to the owner, then after they say back to me 'my dog is friendly', I call back 'I am not friendly, call your dog'. If this fails and the dog approaches, then I begin the above response to a dog I see as out of control and has an owner who refuses or fails to control it.

Yes misinformation is dangerouse. I know the ANKC has said they do not allow dogs to be trained for attack work on humans. Is it legal (all states or which ones) for anyone to train dogs for attack work on humans or is there some sort of government oversight of this sort of training? What is required to hang up your shingle? Can any one own a dog that had been trained to attack humans in Australia? Or do you have to be licensed, permits by governement, any oversignt at all on who owns these dogs?

Oh don't spoil all the fun by saying caution is a good approach. I'm sure there are many who are enjoying these posts about the right kind of bite an attack dog should have. It might be good that hard protection dogs enthusiast are letting it all hang out for everyone in the world to read. Some could say this thread is a public service, that people needs to know all about this corner of the dog world and to have full understanding of the term 'aggression' when applied to dogs bred and trained to attack humans. That is how I see it, but I am a libertarian.

Jed !!!!!!!!! Super, fantastic, terrific, this has made my day!! It is so so good to see you posting again!!!!!! Welcome back!!!

Stop talking about your dog. Pick up your dog and then start talking about yourself. Scream and cry out in fear "get your dog, get it away from me. Your dog is trying to bite me, Get your dog away from me" . Works like a charm every time. Watch them get their dog in a hurry and get as far away from you as possible.

its not the overall breed its some lines. Difference. They have a real world application and need in society. If the breeders are not selling them to Jo Bloggs then whats the issue with it? The public appreciate dogs doing jobs but they understand they are 'different' to pet ones. I still dont see how this is a confusing issue for so many people. Which goes back to my original question, do people who own and use attack dogs really shop on DOL for their next dog? Really??? And of course you can word that this way too...do people who breed and train attack dogs really offer them for sale on DOL? I guess the answer is yes on both counts. And next time I need an attack dog I will know where to shop for it! As I said I will go back under my rock of blissful ignorance. Maybe they do, or maybe not. I cant answer that question as I don't have enough knowledge. MY question however is what is wrong with them advertising on DOL if they want to? They have pure bred dogs that they wish to advertise on a pure breed dog website. These dogs are bred for a certain purpose which is quite clearly listed on the add. What is the problem with that? Are we only allowed to advertise pet dogs on this site? If people don't like the term 'aggressive' and don't want a dog with this trait them they can look elsewhere or at other listings. Simple. Is DOL for any purebred dogs or only ANKC registered dogs, there is a difference. For example can purebred registered pitts advertize on DOL? Can a kennel of purebred working kelpies WKC registerd dogs have a breeders pages? Anyway here is what ANKC has to say about it The Australian National Kennel Council and its Member Bodies totally and unequivocally oppose the practice of training of a dog to attack humans or any other animals, or of causing dogs to fight. We totally support any State or Federal laws that would outlaw this practice. Such practice is an offence against Member Bodiesí Regulations. Not that means anything on DOL I imagine, but find it interesting non the less. As I said the world of Attack dogs or Hard Protection dogs or Secutiry dogs or what ever you want to call them, is new to me and I do not know anything about where these sorts of dogs are found for sale. Why not DOL?? Yes why not, I agree.

You are most correct. If dogs are being bred for 'aggression', what ever that may mean to the attack dog buyer, the general public or anyone else, with or with out images of chocolate in their minds, and these bred for 'aggression' dogs are being sold on DOL, I think it is very very wise that this is mentioned.

its not the overall breed its some lines. Difference. They have a real world application and need in society. If the breeders are not selling them to Jo Bloggs then whats the issue with it? The public appreciate dogs doing jobs but they understand they are 'different' to pet ones. I still dont see how this is a confusing issue for so many people. Which goes back to my original question, do people who own and use attack dogs really shop on DOL for their next dog? Really??? And of course you can word that this way too...do people who breed and train attack dogs really offer them for sale on DOL? I guess the answer is yes on both counts. And next time I need an attack dog I will know where to shop for it! As I said I will go back under my rock of blissful ignorance.

And just how many GSD do you see that look as bad as the carefully chosen ones featured on that video. Look... The video about KC show dogs was done by those who do not favor KC show breeding of dogs, it was mean to be negative. Ok makers of video want to make a bad impression. That attack dog video I located on a web site in OZ that breeds sells and trains attack dogs, I would assume they thought it was a good video to promote what they do. Exactly what I was sugesting, people who breed and use dogs for attack work on humans showing agression in a controlled work sort of way. That is what this video showed, I could hear people clapping in approval of the work shown. Get it? A video chosen by attack dog trainers to promote attack dogs. Anyway I think most of the 'public' have an idea of what they think agression in dogs means. If you guys beleive you can change that perception in the general public into something positive that will promote certain breeds being bred for 'agression', go for it. I'll watch.....

I tend to think that if we stopped pandering to the vocal minority and just presented the facts the "public" would have a better chance of understanding. This is just my opinion though. I agree. If the public does not like the idea of a breeds being bred for and used for attack work they need to get over it. More descriptive action photos to show real aggression would help them understand possibly. Edited to add Here ya go, some thing like this video will help people understand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZb_pKKh8G4 Ok just like this video will help people understand about show dogs. This is great I really think we are getting somewhere! Please keep up with your highly educational and informative posts shortstep. Your common sense and overwhelming knowledge on the subject is helping not only myself but many others as well. uuuuu I don't have show dogs and said I knew nothing about attack dogs, but I am learning a lot about their owners...LOL Just call me ms public...LOL

I tend to think that if we stopped pandering to the vocal minority and just presented the facts the "public" would have a better chance of understanding. This is just my opinion though. I agree. If the public does not like the idea of a breeds being bred for and used for attack work they need to get over it. More descriptive action photos to show real aggression would help them understand possibly. Edited to add Here ya go, some thing like this video will help people understand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZb_pKKh8G4

But of course the perferred stock dog is a dog that does not need to bite to move difficult stock. Every bite is a potentially damaged sheep/cow and loss of $ to the producer. This is further demonstrated by gripping on the trial paddock as an instant DQ.

Know nothing about guard dogs (is that the right word for their work?) but have a question, does the military or do hard protection handlers/trainers shop for dogs on DOL? Edited to say...Opps I see they are called Hard Protection dogs..sorry about the use of the word guard. lol. Is DOL a non-working dog forum now? People who need working dogs will obviously use DOL as a means to acquire them, not sure if you know exactly how military/police dogs are actually acquired, but most of them are from normal breeders (even show lines sometimes), and there are general security firms who would also seek out such dogs, not to mention, working dog enthusiasts. Interesting to know the military shops for their hard protection dogs on DOL. I would have thought they would have had connections with breeders who only work in this type of dog. Even using show dogs for this sort of work, very interesting indeed. I am just so surprised that dogs for such a potentially dangerous interface with the public, would be so randomly acquired. Anyway back to under my rock where the unknowing should always stay on DOL. Maybe you should read Nekhbet's post again. No I don't think so Jeff. I am fine with the how hard protection dogs are selected by the militray or others in the public sector that use dogs for hard protection work. I also think it is fine to advertize breeding programs for hard protection bred dogs and use the word agression to discribe their temperament here on DOL, after all GSD dogs are not banned (yet). Have a nice day!

wheres the page on the breeders site where you pop in a credit card number and wait for shipment of your pup. Hmm they put all prospective owners through the rigours of scrutiny to see if their dogs are worthy. I find it dissapointing that people insinuate that working breeders must have lower ethics or something. They spend a lot of money to import, train, and raise their pups too you know. The RAAF takes working lines not show lines. VicPol will take show lines if their breeders cannot keep up with demand they prefer Sch titled dogs, have their own kennel as well). They still have to pass a test in order to become a working dog. Hey that is totally twisting what I said. I did not say anything about the breeders. I said I was surprised that dogs for military work were randomly acquired. This taken from what was said, that they use dogs from show breeders and other types of breeders for hard protection work. That is not saying any breeder randomly sold their hard protection bred dogs. In some working situations dogs are breed for the type of work and these are the breeders people would go to get a dog for that type of work. That is the world I am used to, sorry to have questioned this about hard protections dogs if that specialized method of breeding and selection is not the case this area of work. It really is a shame that no one can enter into a conversation without getting jumped. Have a nice day!