shortstep

Well see I would not eliminate a dog because of a tooth, necessarily. Lets say he has very low COI and would supply the lowest COI on a certain bitch, he has excellent heart history, excellent hip history (Finns say 20% affected) and shoulder history, liver history, about 7 other diseases mentioned with excellent history, has excellent temperament and working scores and has otherwise good structure. No other family members with history of missing tooth. I would not rule that dog out to breed, not at all. However I would be looking for a bitch with a good dental history and screen carefully the pups. A missing tooth would not be near as significant to the pups lives as it would be if it had heart problems HD or any of the other disease mentions on that link. I think it is question of risk vs. benefit and all things need to be considered. This dog could have a lot to offer as far as making healthy happy pups.

Here is how the Finns pick a dobe for breeding. Very intersting and covers so many areas. Far more detailed and complete. This is where the Unis are heading us. You can also see the use EBV, COI and other concepts. I thought it was very telling that each year the beed cluds makes sure enough different dogs are being bred (like great pets that would score well but have not been shown). Keeping as many dogs as possible in the gene pool is very important. You will also note that they limit the use of dogs also, preventing popular sire syndrom. http://www.sdy.fi/jalostus/BreedingProgramme.pdf I think you might find the inbreeding on your dobe is more than 5% in 6 generations. I heard the average over all breeds in ANKC was 5% in 3 generations and I believe dobes have a had a long history of popular sire syndrom. Did your breeder do COI's and inform you (thinking you said you had pets and were not a breeder).

5% in how many generations in horses? I am sorry you did not answer my questions about inbreeding in dogs. Do you think these are important questions to considering when throwing out dogs from a closed gene pool? How low would the COI% in 6 generations have to get before you would consider breeding a dog that did not have a show or performance title? How about breeding a dog with a very very low COI (compared to the breed) that had a great pet temperament and good health testing. This dog lives with a family with children and is not show dog, does not do agility or obedience or hunting, just a fantastic pet. Not breed worthy? Nothing to offer?

My previous dog went away for a month and was never the same again. I would not do it now as they are my pets first. My pets stay with me. Understand that, but in that case just leave them as pets Very interesting. What is the absolute max % of inbreeding do you think any breed should have? What responsiblity do you have to help promote and increase genetic diversity in all pedigreed dogs? How does removing dogs from breeding just becasue it has not been shown do anything to imporve the breed?

BSL will be the end result if there is no self-regulation on breeding. If Kennel clubs cannot take on a regulatory role, pure breed groups need to be formed that will. Yes. If the kennel club (or pure breed groups) don't take on a regulatory role, and publically demonstrate that they are actively policing their breeders to ensure they are are all breeding healthy dogs (and are publically holding them to account if they are not), then I think the public will just want all breeders of any problem breeds banned. I agree. Well what is happening in Europe is not banning all breeders. What they are doing is addressing all of the complaints. I do not follow all the breeds over there but it is happening across all breeds. Lets just take one of the complaints Inbreeding. In some of the European countries a max amount of inbreeding is allowed (for each breed) and is regulated on registration of litters. Some breeds have opened stud books to working registries to increase genetic diversity and increase the breeders options. How would we see this in Australia? Take the Kelpies a breed that is so easy to do this with. In Australia we have a huge population of WCC registered dogs and a very small gene pool of ANKC registered dogs. Last time I talked a show kelpie breeder they were quick to tell me that their dogs were the same as the working dogs. Good. However they are not allowed to breed to a WCC dog with their ANKC kelpie. That is really silly, only potentially hurts the dogs in the ANKC and shows a total lack of insight and regard for the future of the breed. This is the sort of changes that need to be made. Some of these concepts will violate kennel club thinking no question, but that does not mean they are ideas that should not be accepted.

I agree that 'bad' example of breeders will be held up and used to smear the whole group. But the problem is far deeper than that, and haveing a witch hunt on poor breeders will not solve this problem. Even the best breeder can not prevent a dog from getting HD or heart condiontions or many other diseases if that disease is in the population of purebred dogs they are breeding. So if focus on breeders that have produced a disease as the problem, then everyone will eventually be labled a bad breeder. However when no breeders are left, this will serve the function of ending the sick dogs being bred in the kennel club. Not exactly the solution I would like to see. We really need to look at this in bigger terms and ideas. This is a not a problem of a few bad breeders, I wish it was that smiple.

Below are some links to get you started. When ever anyone ask about showing and it's value in breeding programs, we should not leave out of the conversation what is happening across the world and much of it coming from our unis right here in Australia. There is a huge and successful movement, to at the very least alter how breeds are viewed and bred, or at the worst to destroy the concept of pedigreed dogs all together. Right now the attack if centered on kennel clubs and their activities, but I believe as progress is gained in this area, it will be moved to those breeders outside of the kennel club, including purebred working breeds such as kelpies (WCC dogs) and others. If ever there was a time for all dog breeders to join together this is it. I also think it is a time for Kennel club breeders to look closely at our beliefs and to change where needed. I do not think the nice little articles on how to breed healthy dogs in the NSW dogs magazine are going to fool anyone. There needs to be real change not just lip service. Certainly the idea of show ring needs to be given a back seat in the list of what is important in breeding programs. Edited to add, BTW I noticed the proposed ANKC accredited breeder does not mention anything about show ring activites. Sorry if this sounds harsh but there is no way to defend some breeds as fit for function, even as a pet. We need to admit this and change our practices to correct what we can and not continue. Even then I am not sure that will be the end of the complaint and attack. I believe there is a great belief in the Unis that all breeds should be done away with and possibly even the idea of dogs as domestic pets. I really do not know where it will end but it is no use pretending it is not happening. Having fun little debates about if someone should even breed dogs if they are not at the dog shows seems like sticking ones head in sand. Flaws on Paws mission 2008 (Uni) http://www.usyd.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=2695 Then with the help of the RSPCA and other animal right groups the battle moved to the UK Pedigree dog breeding in the UK a Major Concern Our Uni assisted with this RSPCA work which is the foundation of the attack. This work is being used in Australia by RSPCA http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?...application/pdf UK summary purebred dog health (kennel club report) http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1...maryresults.pdf Then there was the UK Parlament inquiry report http://breedinginquiry.files.wordpress.com...uiry-120110.pdf You need to speak to the breed clubs, but the standards are being changed to remove extremes or health relalted strucural problems in the UK and I believe ANKC have agreeded to adopt these changes in our pedigrees. Then back to Asstralia 10 point plan for ANKC breeders (uni) http://www.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/research/dis..._point_plan.pdf Animal Welfare Concern; Tracking Disease in Pedigreed Dogs (Uni Australila) (my vet is now hooked in to this as are several hunderd other vets in NSW. Every time you take your dog to the vet the information gets sent to the Uni.) http://www.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/Foundation/help/dogs.shtml Faq Frequent Questions (Uni) http://www.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/research/disorders/faq.shtml Early on in a major US mag, has bull dog pup peeing on AKC reg papers on the cover. One of the early public reports 1994 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,981964,00.html There is heaps more, just go to the Uni and search the topics This all started in the animal rights movement. Does anyone have the link for the original list of demands for changes, no merles, bo big dogs, no small dogs, no short noses, no long ears. generci dog shape only. This was about 18 years ago and was the lead in for the changes in europe??? I can;t find my link. Think they will only after show dogs, think again. Just give it some time. http://www.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/teaching_lea...gSurvey2009.pdf and another http://www.dogsnsw.org.au/upload/documents...rvey%202009.pdf Hope this helps.

Europe is made up of a lot of countries, each having their own KC and often other registries too. So they are all different. The northern countries like Finland, Sweden, Norway have been active in the type of breeding plans the Uni and RSPCA want us to adopt. Boards of interested persons (you may have heard that before) look at each breed and make up the breeding standards/rules. They adjust breed standards to reduce extremes or any area that affects health or quality of life. Health testing is mandatory. A structure functional soundness exam (do not confuse with breed ring show type looks, working bred dogs pass these with flying colors). Often some sort of minimal temperament test and for some breeds a working test. In most cases the working test is so minimal as to not be meaningful, however it gives the illusion that the dog has talent when if fact they would never be selected by a working breeder. I would rather see no working test requirements then this. Some have rules about the use estimated breed values, most have limits on COI. In general I think many of the European dog breeders (and dog owners/buyers) are further ahead in some of the newer ideas on dog breeding.

Just my observations It is not only just different types, it can also be different registries with very different ideas about what makes a dog a good example of the breed. In the kennel club show dog world everything revolves around the written standard of appearance, a standard that changes with the trends in the ring and at best may have only a line or two about the function of the breed or it's temperament, fair enough as neither of which can be assessed in the show ring. But this in it's self may not be what is held as most important or defining about a breed for many people. It is clear that the current trends are moving away from show dogs and returning back to original purpose or for breeding programs that breed for health and temperament first. Just look at the work coming out of the Uni, and it is clear to see that these ideas are not going away and in fact may be pushed down our throats...LOL. So, breeding can and often does focus on function as the priority. For example in the border collie. The very first registry (1906) and still is the premiere registry for the breed is ISDS. There is no appearance standard and never was, so that tells how important breeding for an appearance standard was in the formation of the breed and how much importance to holds today, zip. All value is placed on the dogs performance as a sheepdog and for over 100 years this has been the breeding goal. If you look at the dogs in 1906 and you look at them today, they all look very much the same. Basically unchanged in appearance however appearance was not ever the breeding goal. Impressive to those who want to find real meaning in the statement 'form follows function'. I think before there can be any real understanding of working dog breeding, there has to be an understanding that show dog breeding ideals of are not the goal. If the argument/mind always drifts back to "but the standard says"....and "you should only breed towards what the standard says"....then you have missed the point (in many cases) of how breeding for performance was done in the past and how it is still done today. The key idea is, there is still very much a breed and breed is defined by what it does.

Hey elitest in racing dogs is accepted and admired! How are your dogs different, longer legs lighter bone maybe? The Alaskan husky (is that the right name) who I understand are big winners in the raceing world, seem a much lighter and leggy dog.

I'm sorry, but don't most breed standards state that the dogs must be bred 'fit for the work that they were bred to do'? I am not a breeder, but I do show. I am new to showing. I do know though, that breed standards call for dogs to be fit for the purpose for which they were originally bred - in other words, my working dog should still be able to go out and work sheep. If a breeder doesn't care about that part of the standard, aren't checking for sound dogs that conform to the standard, then they won't be fit for work, their conformation will mean that it won't be able to work sheep all day. Showing a dog is one way of ensuring that good conformation. I think you should test your theroy that breed ring ensures the correct structure of the dogs to be fit to do their work. Go to some 3 sheep trials and see how dogs winning the trials compare to a champion show border collie. I can see lot of difference, a number of things that would limit the use of an ANKC show dog as a working dog and a lot of stuff that has no bearing on their use at all. But that does not help you if you can not see these things. I would also say that the very first thing working dog breeders select is dogs that are doing the work, not dogs they think look like they might be able work. This is a huge difference, and the reality in the real world of working dogs, you can only maintain dogs that can work by using dogs that do work. Remember the old saying, 'form follows fuction'. It was not said 'function follow form'. The border collie body has been molded on the paddock for at least 200 years and still is today. BTW None of this matter is you just want to breed dogs you think look great. So here are some standard questions to reason out about the border collie you mentioned. Why are ANKC border collies only allowed to be rough coated. What is the approx percentage of smooth coated border collies world wide, (and please include the dogs in the working registires ISDS ABCA CBCA etc. because these are the dogs doing the work). Smooth coated dogs are very much preferred for many reason in Australia for work, what do ANKC breeders believe about smooth or even semi rough coats that makes it such a seriousely negative trait for the working border collie that they refuse to main register smooth coated dogs, which is directly in opposition to what those who use the dogs for work believe? How many hours a week do you think it would take to remove grass seeds from a show coated border collie that worked in paddocks every day? What possible reason are Blues (dilute black) allowed but lilacs (dilute choc) are not allowed. If health was a priorty, why is dilute gene allowed at all? Why is Tri colour only allowed on blacks when it will attach to any colour? What makes a tri choc such a severely negative trait in a working dog that ANKC beleive they should be denied Main register. What is the appx world population of Tri coloured border collies (of all colours) as compared to the ANKC gene pool of Border collie dogs? Why would there be a this huge difference? Hope this helps give you some areas to think about.

Not always though. We compete against many show dogs as well as purpose bred Alaskan Huskies as well as other breeds like GSP's. You can do that in racing! In fact, there are very minimal racing line bred Siberians in Australia which to me is a shame. I am sure you are aware of Dr Bragg, his dogs are awsome. http://www.seppalakennels.com/ His web site is full of interesting information, much of it to do with breeding. He has also written some great stuff. Always thought provocating http://www.seppalakennels.com/jeffreys-articles.htm Registry Without Breeds: A Thought Experiment The Survival of Historic Sleddog Breeds The Place of the Recreational Dog Musher Exploitative versus Developmental Breeding Methods Sleddog Ethics: Responsible Sleddog Breeding, Training and Ownership Population Genetics in Practice: Principles for the Breeder The Genetic Tide: Will it Leave Us High and Dry? The Genetic Tide Continues to Swell And years ago when he first struggled with trying to breed effective sled dogs in the Candian Kennel Club 'Purebred Dog Breeds into the Twenty-First Century: Achieving Genetic Health for Our Dogs' http://www.netpets.com/dogs/healthspa/bragg.html#toc He is actually a really good example of breeding top quality dogs and has nothing to do with show ring nor is he even in the Kennel club, which is back to the topic at hand. BTW the reason he is not in the kennel club, (if I recall correctly) is, becasue they would not register the Siberians he collected in Siberia to imporve the breeding stock in the KC. Evedently the gene pool of Sibs is based on just a couple of dogs and they are very inbred. These Siberian Siberians were not considered to be Siberians in Canada because they were not registered in a FCI approved kennel club...LOL

Jed, Some ones else has already said, 'the world would be a better place if we were all a bit more like you'. I agree totally! You are an inspiration in so many ways. I am so glad you are feeling better, I am so glad you are back ( you have a truly brilliant rational mind and not afraid to use it) as you have so much to contribute. I have learned a lot reading your posts and I am so glad I can keep right on doing that!

BTW NZ is no longer using dogs at the abattoirs. Is this the same for dairies? I think so but not sure. Animal rights and all that. Are you seriously serious????? If the animal rights have stopped farmers using dogs on dairy farms, then they would of stopped using them on Sheep stations. Somehow I dont think so. Well yes I am serious. The abattoirs were hassled for years, threaten with boycotts, the usual stuff, they gave up and got rid of their dogs. It was not a law, but the pressure was so great they really had no choice. I seem to remember that many/some/a few of the dairy farmers followed shortly there after, even briefly marketing their milk as from cows free of harassment of dogs. Like the egg producers and the battery cages. I am sure that the pressure will turn to dogs used on sheep and paddock cattle soon. Once the Unis take on the use of livestock dogs as an animal rights agenda and make it their own, you have got to be looking down the not too far off road of big changes. There has already been some uni studies on the stress level of dogged sheep and the more recent uni study on the care and training of sheepdogs, not to forget the other uni study which seemed to be more of a census of farm dogs nation wide (know thy enemy). The move towards banning of livestock dogs will be after the banning of at least a few show dog breeds I think. Will come as a country wide effort promoted by the uni's, animal rights groups and the government. Attack will be 2 fold, welfare issue for livestock, welfare issues for the dogs themselves. All we need now is the TV doco 'Horror on the Paddocks' made by the drama queen of animal rights. Add in a few interviews taken at the local ANKC herding trial, such as "My dog loves to play with sheep, it is good exercise and flossing with wool is very effective and inexpensive dental hygiene". And, "We come every weekend to enjoy the sport of herding on ducks, then we go play ball in the park. Makes for a full day of fun for my dog". Then some video of a farmer with his shock collar. Yes, that should be about all it will take. You know the drill, just the same as the efforts being used against show breeders here in Australia and the UK. BTW has the standard here been altered for the bulldog yet? Did we just copy what the UK did trying to pacify the Australian Uni involved, the UK RSPCA and UK government? Do you think 'showies' will breed the bull dog towards the different standard? If the KC breeders refuse to breed towards the less extreme features, it will be interesting to see how long it is before the government takes action. Maybe in 5 years or so? pass laws that it is a crime to breed dogs with structural deformities. Perhaps even prosecute some breeders for intentionally producing pups that have deformities. Then go for the kill and ban the breed due to welfare issues caused by breeders that the government (though education and breeding laws) have been unable to prevent. I am guessing they will give it about 10 years to 'fix' the breed and then they will start banning. Am I serious? Aaaa yep.

Smart remarks? Hills in OZ, no not really. Well not like the mountains I am used to anyway. I have lived in several countries. Seen some real hills. Work dogs on real hills too. BTW NZ is no longer using dogs at the abattoirs. Is this the same for dairies? I think so but not sure. Animal rights and all that.

We worked on dairy farms back in NZ. And raised our own Bulls and sheep while working on those farms. And yes he did work quite a few hundred bovines a year. The smallest farm he worked on had 500 cows plus young replacements and Bulls. He worked on two farms during one year with over 1100 milkers alone on hill country farms No we didnt trial him. When you work 7 days a week most weeks and only get time off for a dog show LOL there was no time for anything else. But I do love the trials. My hubbys uncle has a Kelpie which he does agility with. SS Many show dogs can not perform the job they were bred for. That is quite evident by being around the show scene for many years. A dog show is a judges opinion. Showies pay for that opinion. That is because they can and want to. Those dairy cows are hard work.

Me too!! I had a lovely working dog that had perfect show conformation, a real beauty. Even had those big baby doll eyes and the tipped ears. Unfortunately I never showed the dog to prove this. I have had many show breeders tell me that I do not know enough about a show dogs to say if the dog I had would make a champion. However I was assured by these show breeder that they do know good working dogs when they see it and that most of their show dogs are also terrific working dogs. Just wish they would take them to the bigger trials so I could see them in action. Did you trial you kelpie? You must have had thousands of cattle to work those long hours year round like that. So yes, I will never question the knowledge of show breeders when it comes to top quality working dogs. I know my place, as I have those weedy working dogs that can not hold a candle to good show dog on the paddock. Thanks for reminding me LOL

Standards change all the time and are different in one country to another.

That is to keep the standard up dated to what the dogs in the ring are looking like. Got to strive for the standard you know...LOL

The standards of the dogs written many years ago as we know them, were not only produced for the working owners but also for the show ring. "Type" is of utmost importance. This is what determines one breed from another. I have seen many many "working Line"(btw I hate those words)Kelpies barely resembling a Kelpie but yet they are. They are being bred by farmers who have no regard for the preservation of "type". Farmers who have no regard in following a standard. Then again I have seen a few show breeders who also do not try to breed to the standard but they are in the minority. There is only one standard for each breed. There is not a working line standard and a show ring standard. How many working line Kelpies out there DO NOT have the characteristic brush tail or coat ruff around the neck. Absolutely critical in the survival of the dog in the outback conditions to keep warm once that sun goes down. So "without breeding to the standard, dogs would not look like their breed" without breeding to their standard dogs would have no type. LOL well you need to go tell that farmer who uses his dogs for the work intended that he needs to get show bred dogs so they look right. You might find out that his family have been breeding these kelpies that do not look like what the show people think kelpies should look like for many many generations. Of course the working kelpie you are looking at may be a cross bred kelpie too. In the working registry they still can cross back to border collies to improve their dogs (you know, like the experts of dog breeding are recommending for the kennel clubs to allow, open stud books and cross breeding as appropriate). Personally I would be looking at the dogs working style, talent and usefulness and judge the dog from there. I am sure I could pick out a well bred kelpie on how it works and it's general appearace on the sheep. I would hope it keeps that tail with the wrong hair low however, lol. I saw a smooth coated border collie with pricked ears recently. Would not be allowed to be registered in the KC in Australia. However this dog looks exactly like border collies 100 years ago and how they still look today. This dog is registered in the original registry for the breed and has a pedigree going back to 1906. This dog could be registered in the UK KC and in most countries. But lets not let the truth ruin a good story. This dog is a mongrel in Australian show breeders eyes. All I noticed of its tail was that I did not notice it, and that is how it should be, down low even tucked, always work like, reflecting a mind fully engaged in the job at hand. Pure beauty BTW. There will never be any agreement between those that breed for function and those who breed for looks. But do face the fact the show dogs and show dog breeders are in the direct line of fire (not the working dogs). So might be a good idea to listen to the other side. If impossible to relate to anything they say, at least try to humor them. But then again, why consider change now. Show breeding is the only right way to breed good dogs, ride it out and see where it all ends.

LOL Well this is a loaded question and will depend on who you ask. If you ask show breeder, who has invested years of study and effort in to getting that perfect look, then they will think that this is important. Ask a man on the farm who has kelpies to move his sheep and he will think that show ring has no impact on a what makes a good dog. Ask a pet owner and most would rate temperament as most important. The finer points of a 'good' show dog would be lost on them. Ask a hunter and a dog that is not gun shy and does his job well is more important than show ring points. So what do I think. For most dog owners the goal of near perfect show ring traits, is of little or no value. Fit for function, be it work, play or companion is far more important to most people. Before someone says that without breeding to the standard dogs would not look like their breed, this is total bunk. Look at the working sheep dogs, kelpies and border collies. They are unmistakable and instantly recognizable for the breed that they are. They look just like they looked 100 years ago. This is what it really means to say that form follows function. The dogs bodies are molded by the work over many generations. It is far easier to demonstrate that that the show ring models have wandered away from what the breed did look like prior to being bred for show ring.

I really do support banning the selling of dogs and cats in pet shops. However I do not think it will make much difference to the problems associated with 'pet shop' puppies. 1. Poorly bred and poorly raised pups will still be available from the news paper, internet, farmers markets, notice board. 2. Too many people really think buying a pet is like buying a sweater. Right colour, trendy style and right price, I'll take it! And just like that sweater, when the novelty wears off, the sweater/pup can be gotten rid of. 3. Banning pet shop sales is pretty easy to do and regulate. However banning the so called 'BYB' or 'puppy farms' can be tricky to define and tricky to legally do. Even regulating these dog breeders is difficult and I think the recent NSW dog breeding regulations as a direct result of the inability of the government to do something about the problem. these laws are not directed directly at puppy farmers or BYB, they are directed at anyone who breeds a pup that is for sale. So I think it would be fine to ban pet shop sales but I do not think it would do much to solve the underlying and surrounding problems of the world of poorly bred and hastily bought dogs. I think if nothing else, pet shop selling should be banned for the protection of the mental and physical welfare of the pups. Just some random thoughts on some surrounding issues. Sorry these ramble all over the place and I am too tired to sort them into good reading..LOL The deck is being stacked against the world of purebred dogs. The intellectual uni point of view, here in Australia and around the world, is that purebred dogs are in poor shape. Even more threatening is that dog ownership in general is no longer considered appropriate in our future greener, higher density, earth friendly lifestyles envisioned by the evolved thinkers. We have all seen it, dogs are high carbon polluters. If want a pet get a chicken, keep it on the terrace of your high rise unit, eat the eggs and use the poo in the communal garden plot where you grow your own veggies after you ride your bike home from your downtown high rise office job. LOL Not funny is this really is the way the future is envisioned by many in positions to help make this a reality. I think ANKC is one of the surrounding problems on a couple of issues. And these are areas that we can do something about. Purebred dog breeders shoot themselves in the foot on a lot of these issues. Many are failing to make adjustments to the times. No one should breed dogs they do not like, but if they fail to breed dogs that meet the demands of the public and the larger society, then they can not expect the public to want their dogs or to care about the future of their dogs. It is easy to say the oddle is junk, but junk is in the eye of the beholder. People paying 2000 for oddle evidently do not think they are junk. This fact says a lot, and it clearly shows that what people really value may not be what we thought they would value. When looking at the perception the public has of purebred dogs vs the oddle. One important question to answer is what do the dogs "I" breed offer to the new owners and do I present my dogs in such a way as to highlight these traits to the people who are looking for them. Example, if someone wants a pet for a family with a couple of children, their main concerns will be a dog that gets on good with their kids, low maintenance and healthy. Purebreds marketed as from champion show parents, conforming perfectly to the standard, excellent bone and head, show results and other things a breeder may hold dear, usually have little or no interest to the public pet owner. These days showing might even be considered a negative (pedigree dogs exposed). You will often hear a breeder saying I breed for a pup for myself and not for others. I think much of how the dogs are presented to the public comes from this point of view. Contrasting this to the oddles, marketed as a friendly healthy low maintenance dog for the whole family, then add a few cute pics. This looks very attractive to the family. This is a what they understand and what they want to find in their dog. It is no wonder their mix breed pups are sought after. Perception is often more powerful than fact. All though there are many fine ANKC dogs breeders, there are also a lot of really poor breeders. Unless we regulate our own breeders to the highest standards, we are not any better as any other class of dog breeder. When I say breed dogs to the highest standards, I believe that show ring needs to be devalued, where as health, temperament and structural suitability gain value. It seems at this point in time a worthless and unhelpful stance to argue that ANKC dog breeders are the only ones who should be allowed to or can breed a quality dog. Personally I think the world of showing dogs is slowly coming to an end and in the next 50 years will no longer exist, due to both fading interest in the dog world and animal rights pressures. Will this also be the end of purebred dogs? I hope not.

All I will say is grabbing the collar was one of the tests we used to screen for dogs that bite. So was pulling some hair on the flank, pulling the tail and another things a kid might do to the dog. One good thing is that this dog is a good human trainer and you learned quickly not to cross him and touch his collar. Now the problem will be to convince you, that you have a big problem, a dog that is in control of you and that this dog will go from a nip to a full on bite when you cross his line again. Dogs do what works and a nip has worked on you so far, take it up a notch are refuse to obey him, really grab his collar and not let go and he will really bite you. Dogs that bit in this mannor are created not born. Get real help and get it now. Best of luck.

That is a pretty good brief description. I would add that both qualities are controlled by the dogs' genetics. You cannot train a dog to have more or less drive, or more or less nerve. The challenge of training is to do the best with what you have. JMHO I disagree with this. I have seen many dogs that have great drive built in a birth, only to have it taken right out with negative/bad training practices or methods that do not take in to account the dogs over all temperament or motivations. It may come in the dog at birth, but you can knock the stuffing our of any dog, and maybe people do take their dogs down instead of building them up. Nerves at least in a stock dog can also be taken out of a dog. Let a pup or young dog that is looking very confident get slammed by a bull or nasty ewe, that dog will not be as brave as it would have been if allowed to grow up first with out negative experiences. You can put fear into a stock dog and many people do just that. Nurture has a lot to do with how dogs turn out in the end.

I usually whelp the litter in my bedroom. They stay in that room for a few days. then I move them to their own private bedroom, this is because I have a lot of dogs in the house and moms like some privacy with their pups. I have a half door on this room, so the house sounds enter the room, but it is private from peering eyes of other dogs. Mom can jump over the half door to get in and out, and the pups are in a large whelping box. Around 2.5-3 weeks I move them to the family room/kitchen, (edited to add, into a large 5 x 7 ft play pen with 2" high elevated sleeping bed) which is the center of my house and center of everything that happens. By then the pups are hearing and seeing and the mom will tolerate the other dogs in the room. At 4 weeks they start to visit my outside puppy pen, which is next to the family room and again lots of dogs, people and life going on around them. At 4 weeks I add a crates (no door) to both areas and put bedding in the crates, soon the pups are sleeping in the crates. Week 4 we also have (loose) play time in the family room and in the evening they all get a cuddles and play time while we watch TV. Gentle alder dogs are with them for this play time too. They also spend a lot of time going for walks on the property with me and the other dogs, they have time with my older dogs that are good with pups and just prior to leaving then spend some time with dogs that will tell them then need to knock it off LOL. From 4 weeks on we go out 2-3 times a week for socialization with strange people, strange places, car rides and so on. Pups are also taught to tug, chase ball, come when called, a little leash work and most are on the way to being house trained. Lots of sensory items are placed in the play pen, as well as things to climb on and into and even a little pool on hot days. Week 6.5 the pups start crate training and by 7 weeks they are sleeping 2 to a crate at night, but 7.5 weeks one to a crate at night.