shortstep

My agenda? Well in the case of your statement, my agenda is to find and understand the facts. Is it a fact or your opinion that the prevalence of this disease is lower in Australia? If it is fact can you give the % / rate for Australian and site where you got that information from. If it is your opinion that is fine and you are welcome to it, but you should say it is your opinion. Otherwise some folks may think it is a fact. Perhaps a new breeder who might decide not to do an MRI on her bitch. Perhaps an owner looking at a dog she thinks might have it and then dismisses her concern. Perhaps a buyer who might not think she needs to request MRI results on the pups parents.

What is suggests to me is that we don't have a clear understanding of the links between breed characteristics and other genetic issues. What's where in a DNA chain is still a big unknown. We do know that there are links between some colours and health issues. We could reduce a lot of health conditions by banning all black, black and tan and white dogs.. is that somewhere we should be heading? That is why inbreeding is not working. We have no idea what genes we leave behind and what they would have done. Nnor do we have any idea what recessive genes we are doubling up, it all goes on while we look at something like coat or rear legs or stops. It can go even to the point that every dog in the breed now has only those 2 genes for a disease (like the Dals). The system is broken. I do not think this means that we cannot have breeds. I think we can but how we breed them and what we select for has to change. Starting at the very core, the word purebred.

Oh no question that is why so much DNA research is going on using pruebred dogs as the lab rats, and explains why they do not use mix breeds. You would be very unlikely to find collie eye in your poodle and you would also have to look long and hard to find it any mix bred unless it was made up of the collie breeds or tollers. So if you want to finde collie eye, look at dog breeds in a closed stud book where CEA is noted in the breed, you'll then find it easily. But I do not consider that bragging material at all. It is proveing that inbreeding, closed stud books and a few other factors that go on to make the word purebred, are the basis of the reasons that diseases spread through purebred breeds is such frequency. You can almost ID a breed by listing it's diseases, not a good sign.

To be totally correct it should be said, Every dal has 2 of the recessive genes for the disease, making them homozygous, or uu for the disease. Let us know what is said!

What on earth are you on about?? How can the ANKC recognise a dog if there aren't any here. Are you suggested that unregistered dogs be imported and used? If you're talking about dogs that don't carry a gene, that's one thing. There are plenty of disease free Dals in the country. Lets not lose sight of that. Oh dear I see the problem. All dals, all of them in the kennel clubs that is, have two copies of the gene for the uric acid disease. They all have the disease, it is just some get much sicker than others (won't go in to the ins and outs of that, but you can read up on it). So that is why the outcross was done in the first plact, there were no normal genes in the Dals, so to bring in a normal gene they had to go to another breed. The dals that come from this cross breeding now all carry either 1 or 2 normal genes. The dogs with 2 normal genes can be bred to any of the dog in the Australian ANKC, and the resulting pups will not have the disease. Here is a bit about it, though this might need to be updated a bit. All present day LUA Descendants are heterozygous for the specific gene, i.e. they have one normal copy and one recessive copy . Their genotype is [uu], and their phenotype is normal canine urinary uric acid, which is called Low Uric Acid - LUA. All AKC registered Dalmatians are homozygous recessive, i.e. they have two copies of the recessive gene , which gives them a genotype of [uu] and a phenotype of High Uric Acid - HUA. If you breed an LUA Descendant [uu] to an AKC registered Dalmatian [uu], theoretically 1/2 of the puppies will be [uu] or LUA, and 1/2 of the puppies will be [uu] or HUA. Nature doesn't always follow the laws of probability and statistics, particularly in small litters of 6 or 7 puppies. There are now 7 known pure dominants that exist today [uU]. It is likely that breeding LUAs to LUAs will produce more homozygous dominants [uU] in the future. http://www.luadalmatians.com/Basics.html Now what I was on about was you said, that ANKC could not register the normal dals until they were registered in the US, I pointed out that other countires had not waited for that. You also said that no dogs that had the disease free genes had been inported, if that is so, then I can certainly see why, Who would import a dog for $10,000 or more in costs that can not be registered into the ANKC or be used to help the breed in ANKC. Tthat would be putting the cart before the horse. The first thing that needs to happen isf for either ANKC to override the OZ parent club and say we are registereding these dog now, or for the parent club to tell ANKC to do it. Then you import a dog.

Yes. Agree. It will be interesting to see if Australia follows. Ok so I guess that means that the disease free dals are still not allowed in the ANKC, so all pups bought from ANKC breeders do not have the diesase free gene. So what will take for the parent club to do something, it has been 20 years? Maybe we can have the honor of following the UK and US pathway to change. Prime time evening TV coverage, followed by a government inquiry into the welfare of breeding in the ANKC. The Gardener and the RSPCA doing the morning TV rounds and all ending in government panel of experts writing a formal letters to the parent club saying game over now. . I don't see how disease free Dals can be allowed in the ANKC registry if there are none in the country. If the dogs are registered by the CC in their country of origin, they'll be registered when they get here. Aw well perhaps you need to let the UK know that as they registered them prior to them being the AKC. Opps just a big mistake in the rush to breed health dogs I suppose. Someone just wispered in my ear that they have also been accepted in some of the european countries for a few years now, again it must have been a mistake in the rush to breed health dogs. I will look around the web and see if can find out which countries when I have time.

I do not think anyone denies that, I certainly do not. I believe ANKC breeders care greatly and want to breed healthy dogs. However being committed to health and good at applying test to diseases, is not the same as addressing the underlying issue of why so many diseases have become so common in our breeds that is necessary to develope all these tests in the first place. Again, it is closing the barn door after the horse is long gone. If the above breed had not been bred to fix the wrinkle gene across the population and then inbreed every generation on that defective gene, it would not have the fever disease in the first place.

Yes a very good example of how inbreeding gets us in trouble and also touches on breeding for extremes. The thickened and wrinkled skin is actually caused by a mutated gene. So we decide to define a breed by this genetic defect. So we inbreed on this defective gene and spread it thoughout the breed. Then a few wrinkles are not enough so we inbreed for heaps of wrinkles. This causes all sorts of other problems like photos all over the web of puppies with their eye lids stitched up to prevent them from going blind. Note sitch above eye on left, this keep the skin out of the eye preventing blindness. Not to mention all the stories on dogs that need face lifts so they can lead a normal life. So we carry on, keep inbreeding on the defective wrinkle gene and suddenly a new disease is seen. Soon it is known that the same defective gene that causes the wrinkles is the same defective gene that is causing the new disease. There is no thought being given to breeding out the defective gene. That is not the answer as what would the SP be if not a dog with skin hanging off it's body in folds with big thick lips. Instead we look for a way to control the new disease and if lucky we will have a test that ethical breeders can use to help control the disease caused by the defective wrinkle gene. Some Australian coverage. http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/4151/how-shar-pei-dogs-got-their-wrinkle How Shar-Pei dogs got their wrinkles Friday, 18 March 2011 by Bridget Murphy Cosmos Online An international investigation has uncovered the genetics of the Shar-Pei dog's characteristic wrinkled skin, connecting this mutation to a periodic fever disorder which could have important implications for human health. SYDNEY: A genetic mutation that causes wrinkled skin in Shar-Pei dogs may also be responsible for familial Shar-Pei fever, an inflammatory disease that plagues the breed, according to an international investigation. Scientists are now working on designing a genetic screening test, which will help people to breed Shar-Pei dogs with a reduced risk of the disease. The research will also aid investigations of the genetic causes of periodic fever syndromes in humans, which lead to uncontrolled inflammation throughout the body. “Our findings will assist the canine community and provide clues about the mechanisms of human inflammatory disorders,” said Jennifer Meadows, a geneticist at Uppsala University in Sweden and co-author of the journal article published in PLoS Genetics. Familial Shar-Pei fever Shar-Pei dogs, known for their thick wrinkly skin, exhibit a high prevalence of familial Shar-Pei fever (FSF), a congenital autoinflammatory disease causing fever and swelling of the dog’s ankle joints (hocks). Chronic inflammation from FSF can lead to organ failure and premature death for Shar-Pei dogs. The wrinkly skin of the Shar-Pei contains an excess of a disaccharide polymer called hyaluronan, most likely due to over-activation of a gene called hyaluronan synthase 2 (HAS2). If hyaluronan becomes fragmented, it can stimulate an immune reaction in the body and cause inflammation and fever. Same mutation causes wrinkles and fever The researchers compared the genomes of more than 100 Shar-Pei with genomes of other dog breeds. At the same time, genomes of healthy Shar-Pei dogs were compared with genomes of Shar-Pei suffering from FSF. Both genome comparisons pointed to the same segment of DNA, close to the HAS2 gene, that had been duplicated in error. In some cases the segment had been duplicated multiple times, increasing the risk of FSF for these dogs while also causing the wrinkled skin. The association of HAS2 dysregulation and autoinflammation is also of wide interest since the genetic cause of approximately 60% of human periodic fever syndrome cases remains unexplained. "The finding that hyaluronan is a major trigger of fever opens a new research field in canine and human inflammatory disease," said senior author Kerstin Lindblad-Toh, a professor in comparative genomics at Uppsala University. Side effects of selective breeding This type of genetic control, where one gene can control multiple traits, is called pleiotropy. Understanding pleiotropy in domestic animals is particularly important, since selective breeding for a specific trait can inadvertently increase the frequency of other sometimes undesirable characteristics in the breed. Meadows and her co-authors are in the process of developing a test for the mutation, although it has not been determined when the test will be available for commercial use. “Our hope is that a genetic test may help breeders to reduce the prevalence of risk alleles in the Shar-Pei breeding population,” said Meadows. Improving dog health and welfare Claire Wade, a professor of animal genetics at the University of Sydney, said that genomic studies are helping to improve the health and welfare of all dogs, not just those of specific breeds. The Australian National Kennel Council has promised to adjust breeding standards to improve animal welfare if scientific evidence suggests a link between a disorder and a characteristic that is standard for the breed. The Shar Pei breed standard was recently adjusted in 2009 to discourage breeding dogs with heavy wrinkling. “There is a strong commitment by the pedigree dog community to breed healthier dogs. Dog breeders are very good at applying tests relevant to their breeds as they become available,” said Wade.

Can you give links to the studies that prove that statement. There has only been one Look See that I know about and 50% were affected and it was very small sample. Can you site the last parent club natioanl survey of owners (taken from ANKC registration records over the past 8 years)on what frequency they reported, as I assume the parents club is all over this problem in mulitple ways.

Yes. Agree. It will be interesting to see if Australia follows. Ok so I guess that means that the disease free dals are still not allowed in the ANKC, so all pups bought from ANKC breeders do not have the diesase free gene. So what will take for the parent club to do something, it has been 20 years? Maybe we can have the honor of following the UK and US pathway to change. Prime time evening TV coverage, followed by a government inquiry into the welfare of breeding in the ANKC. The Gardener and the RSPCA doing the morning TV rounds and all ending in government panel of experts writing a formal letters to the parent club saying game over now. .

Yes it is the perfect case for science and dogs, and a perfect case that one person against the odds and against his peers wishes can do wonderful things, and a clear case of how the culture and rules in kennel clubs can make it almost impossible for their dogs to bennifit. I do not think the breed clubs for Dals have a lot to brag about in this case, nor do I think most of their member are that happy to bragg about the dogs entering their kennel clubs. You need to dig deeper. It was one person who had the idea and did the cross breeding. Scores of folks working outside the kennel that kept breeding these healthy dogs for 20 years. He nor the breeders, are hailed a hero by most in the dal breed clubs, he and the breeders were called crossbreeders by many. This work happened 20 years ago or more, and the Dal breed club of America (and just about everywhere else) refused to let the the dogs into the registry for those 20 years. Mostly they said because these dogs were not purebreds. Some because they are afriad what the 1 cross in 14 genrations (the % is so small I cannot even do that math) ago might bring into the breed LOL. Many still feel this way today and they will avoid using these dog or any dog that comes down from them. As far as I know it was the British kennel club accepting them just last year that was the turning point. I think they only did as they are truely under the gun by their government and the RSPCA, and this was a glaring case that proved that pureity comes before health. So they had no choice and had to take them. The whole world of dogs had know about this for 20 years and it really was shameful that it took a government inquiry in to the welfare of pedigree dog breeding practices to get it done. Then in the US the AKC also began to pushed hard on the Dal parent club too and i am sure for the same reasons, with a panel of experts basically saying the game was up, take these dogs in. So they voted and as you can see by the vote it was still far from a landside, many breeders still do not want these dogs in and they will not be using them. I am not sure at all that these healthy Dals can be used in the ANKC?? Still waiting to hear from a breeder on this list, but my guess since no one has come on and said they can be, is they are not allowed to be used in Australia.

So what is the COI for 10 gen in Australia and what is the COI of your dog/s?

This is as simple as I can say it. Health testing is great and I never said, nor implied, not to do it. But health testing is like trying to close the barn door after the horse is out. The goal should be to breed dogs in such a way that inherited diseases do not become common in our breeds. The kennel club breeding system, from it's very starting point of the meaning of purebred which means all dogs in any breed must be, all related to each other usually from a very small founder population, no new genetics brought in, constant use of inbreeding (there is no choice even if you do not want to inbreed), closed stud books and popular sire (and you can link this to showing if you like) effect. All need major review and updating how we do things.

http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2011/05/dwarf-dogs.html Dwarf Dogs By Christopher– May 5, 2011 Posted in: dogs, health & genetics, sine qua non disease There are three common and valued genetic conditions in dogs that result in stunted growth: pituitary (ateliotic) dwarfism which results in proportional minis, micromelic achondroplasia which results in shortened limbs, and brachycephalic achondroplasia which shortens the head. All of these conditions are genetic disorders and all of them are definitive sine-qua-non features of some breeds, often in combination. These disorders aren’t accidental and unwanted, they are written into the breed standards. The breed wardens don’t want to breed these conditions out, they demand they breed true. Mix and match your genetic dwarfism disorders. Most of the toy breeds are ateliotic dwarfs: Chihuahuas, Boston Terriers, Italian Greyhounds, Maltese, Miniature Pinschers, Miniature Spaniels, Pomeranians, Toy Poodles, Yorkies, etc. This form of dwarfism is caused by a deficiency in somatropin which results in stunted growth of all somatic cells in the body. Ateliosis is a recessive allele. If you’re a self-styled expert with a bad case of illusory superiority who has written more books than he’s read, you might say, “‘Achondroplasia’ literally means ‘an absence of good shape,’” but that’s not what the literal Greek means. “Chondro” is Greek for cartilage and “Plasia” means growth or change from the Greek word for moulding. Thus, the literal meaning of Achondroplasia is “Defective growth of cartilage” and that’s pretty much what it is. In general, it serves as the name for a cluster of similar disorders of the cartilage and bone (osteochondrodysplasias). The most obvious effects of Achondroplasia occur in the long bones of the leg and “micromelic” means short limbs. Micromelic breeds include: Basset Hounds, Bulldogs, Corgis, Dachshunds, Lhasa Apsos, Scottish Terriers, Shetland Sheepdogs, etc. Micromelic Achondroplasia is a dominant allele with incomplete penetrance. Another form of Achondroplasia that doesn’t lead to what we commonly consider to be dwarfism but which likewise results in insufficient growth of bone is Brachycephalic Achondroplasia which shortens bones in the skull. In dogs, shortening of the mid-face and maxilla and shortening of the lower jaw are inherited separately. Boxers have a shortened upper jaw, but their lower jaw is normal and they are normal sized in all other respects; whereas Boston Terriers have both upper and lower brachycephalism and are also ateliotic dwarfs, so they are proportional but small with smooshed faces. Bulldogs have midface and upperjaw brachycephaly so their lower jaw juts out and they have trouble breathing, and they also have micromelic achondroplasia so their legs are short and bowed while their trunk is not significantly Miniature Dachshunds carry both forms of body dwarfism, but their faces are unaffected. And what do you get when you combine all three disorders? A Pug. The most completely achondroplastic dog breeds are the toy imports of East Asia origin (bracycephalic + micromelic achondroplastic + ateliotic): the Pekingese, the Shih Tzu, and the Pug. The body-forms of these triply achondroplastic breeds represent the simultaneous superposition of all three varities of achondroplasia–micromelic, maxillary, and mandibular–on a midget frame. Thus, the Pug’s disproportionately stumpy legs, tending to bow (genu varum), result from micromelic achondroplasia. The Pug’s bulging forehead (frontal bossing); large, staring eyes (exophthalmos); pronounced stop (recessed nasion); and short midface (midface hypoplasia) all reflect maxillary achondroplasia. The Pug’s short lower jaw expresses mandibular achondroplasia. The Pug’s extraordinarily flat face and crowded dentition are accidence of the simultaneous operation of maxillary and mandibular achondroplasia. - For the Love of Dachshunds, Robert Hutchinson None of these disorders exist without other health complications like luxating patellas, arthritis, cataracts, and shortened lifespans. But, none of these disorders can be removed from breeds without fundamentally altering the breed itself. The Miniature Dachshund would simply be a Dachshund if you removed the pituitary dwarfism, but most of the other dogs no longer have a perfect corresponding wildtype breed. For that reason, if the disease is to go, the breed is to go. I won’t count on that happening any time soon, if ever. Diseased Dwarf Dog images provided courtesy of Cartoonize My Pet.

Yes thank you, this is an excellent example of the failed argument that she discuessed here; This is a rather weak straw-man that uses the some-all fallacy to suggest that if we can name a woe in purebred dogs that isn’t caused or exacerbated by inbreeding that we can discount or ignore all the problems that are. This neither proves nor disproves anything. Sorry as to the rest of your post, I am off now to town to shop. I also know when my point is missed and when to give up. But can you answer this, are there any of the 3 types of genetic dwarfs that make up the toy breeds that do not have patella problems? Of is is spread across all of the dwarf breeds?

an ethical breeder strives to breed a healthy litter, by doing tests and using healthy examples, researching a bloodline viewing as many of that bloodline as possible to ascertain if there are any genetic problems that will be passed onto the produced pups. however, some genes being recessive doesn't rule out that we get that odd one that might be slightly affected with a genetic problem. All you can do as a breeder is inform the buyer of these problems, get the dog desexed so it does not get used in the gene pool. what else can you do? all dogs no matter what their breeding is has potential to be affected with a genetic problem whether we know the bloodline or it is not known (cross breed bitsas). just my thoughts. it just continually gets up my nose how these people are reporting on genetic problems when they are not reporting on the full story of what is actually going on here. To me the full story is that inbreeding and closed stud books are at the root of the need to do health testing. Health testing is looking for defective genes which are now wide spread enough in the breed as to be commonly found, which now require some sort of screening or testing for. That is ass backwards. Good breeding, ethical breeding, should mean that we are not making breeds that end up with wide spread health problems that need to be tested for in the first place. The whole system is geared to make health problems. Starting with the concept of purebred, which madates inbreeding forever on a small number of ansectors. The Kennel Club moto really should be 'Keep it all in the Family'. Inbreeding is with out question removing a wide selection of genes from each dog and eventually the whole breed, most of these genes we have no idea what they do or that we are removing them. Closed stud books force contiuned inbreeding even for those breeders who want to reduce inbreeding levels in their pups. This goes far beyond being ethical because we health test. It is the very foundations of how we breed dogs in the kennel club system, it needs a very close and honest review. I think the Uk Kennel club is starting to do this, I think they know they have to, it is no longer a debate or an option. Now we need to start talking about it, from the ground up, not from the top down.

Yes thank you, this is an excellent example of the failed argument that she discuessed here; This is a rather weak straw-man that uses the some-all fallacy to suggest that if we can name a woe in purebred dogs that isn’t caused or exacerbated by inbreeding that we can discount or ignore all the problems that are. This neither proves nor disproves anything. Bottom line is, as she explains so well, the term 'fixing traits' really means removing genes. Inbreeding is always removing of genes, genes that are gone forever. Inbreeding never adds genes. The few genes that are chosen to inbred (remove) for, say removing genes for a certain coat colour or for normal shaped nose, are just the the tip of the iceberg of all hidden genes also being affected. Gene choices that offer who knows what to the dog but can also be removed in the process of inbreeding and there was no breeder selection of removal going on there.

I have just read that the US Dalmatian breed club, has finally agreed to allow the disease free low uric acid level Dalmatians to be registered! The disease gene free Dals are now 14 generations past the original cross done to bring in a health gene to the Dalmatian population. This is great news for Dal breeders and Dal owners in the US! The US Dal breed club had blocked allowing in the disease gene free Dals for more than 20 years, even though AKC was in favor of registering the disease gene free Dals. This vote followed a report from an AKC panel of experts strongly advising in favor of bringing into the stud book the Dals that do not carry the defective gene. It also followed The Kennel Club UK admitting them last year. There was also constant pressure applied by many Dal owners and breeders around the world, many in the fields of science and genetics, and countless others. Side note, Usually 3 generation of breeding the F1 or 50/50 cross bred back to purebreds makes the animal considered a purebred again at F4. Even being very cautious, using 5 generations would make the dogs an F6 or 98.9% purebred. What is the status in ANKC on the low uric acid Dals, can they now be used in ANKC? I can't seem to find any information on this.

Really there are many people in the ANKC and kennel clubs around the world that hold views that they would like to see some modernization and change. Here are some good links about inbreeding. They attempt to explain inbreeding in a factual way and to answer some the agruments made which attempt promote inbreeding. You will have read many of these arguments before and here they are investigated in more detail. This one might be good if you are not sure you really want to spend much time reading but want to get a general idea, as it covers some of the most frequent topics you will read about. http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/11/inbred-mistakes-ii.html The whole series of 6 Inbreeding Mistakes is found here Inbreeding Mitakes http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?s=Inbred+mistakes

This is true, but in the wild, only the fittest survive. So if any conditions did pop up which would hinder the Cheetah in anyway, it would most likely die and therefore not reproduce. Their semen is awful, this alone could do be the final push. http://www.pictures-of-cats.org/cheetah-semen-is-much-worse-than-domestic-cat-semen.html Thankfully with dog breeds, there is no reason to reach this extreme state of inbreeding.

Kelpies, both unregistered and the registered dogs are allowed to be crossbred and the registry has an apendix register just to accomidate these cross bred dogs so they may rejoin the regular stud book after 3 generations, just like what the UK kennel club is now doing. Saluki are crossed with other sight hounds, afgan is one breed I have heard them talk about using. Jack Russels in their working stud book also have an open registry and allow cross breeding. ISDS allows dogs to enter the stud book if they can pass the working tests and pass the health testing. The sled dog and racing sled dog breeders use several breeds and combinations depending on what they are breeding for. Most working breeds that have working registers (at least the ones I know about) have open stud books and always have. Anyway if reducing inbreeding is not considered a problem and if allowing open stud books is not considered a problem in ANKC, then the future is looking very good indeed. We should just get off the pot and do it before we are made to do it. The only horses I have ever owned was in the US and they were racing bred registered quarter horses and they were all had cross breeding of throughbred behind. Great animals. The breed of sheep I raise is commonly cross bred and then brought back over a few generations into the stud book as purebred.

1. Not all breeds have "tiny, closely inbred gene pools". Yet another purebred denigrating generalisation from you founded on misinformation. 2. Not all breeds have tens of thousands of dogs existing outside the registered stock. How will this help them? 3. How is taking a 'working Basenji" from the Congo and adding it to the Basenji stud book, any different to your Kelpie example. That is happening now. I fail to see the "real implications" of what is happening in the UK applying to every breed. The simple reason for that is they won't. I doubt anyone is going to stumble across 10's of thousands of native working Poodles any time soon. I don't have an issue with selective outcrossing or introduction of non-registered dogs to assist breeds where that is required. The key word, however, is "assist". Not all breeds require such assistance and not all breeds have it as an option. Stop generalising the approach taken in one breed to all breeds and much of my issue with your argument will disappear. And I wanted to address this separately. Good breeding practices and options should prevent problems and that is the goal in my mind for the future of dog breeding. I do not see the need to make changes only directly at one breed at at time and only that breed. They should be applied across all breeds. Prevention of future problems is vital before they reach crisis. While this may indeed help to save some breeds that have reached crisis point, the bigger idea is to prevent crisis from happening in any breed. An example of this in practice is how The Kennel Club has opened the stud book to all breeds, not just breeds in crisis. So no, this is not about treating a breed in crisis. This is about treating a whole system that is is crisis. By treating the system, you will then give the breeders the tools they need to keep their breeds vital into the future.

Well there was recent example prior to this new open stud book. Several corgi (not sure which one) owners decided that breed was in trouble as it had been listed as an endangered breed, something like only around 20 pups a year were being born and the show breeders would only sell them desexed unless you were an established show breeder, so only 1 of 2 of those 20 actually reentered the fast dwindling KC population each year. They decided they wanted to save the breed and return the breed back to it's foundations a a working breed not a show dog. One fellow grew up with them on dairy farms ors some such thing. So they left the kennel club, imported dogs from all over and found other dogs being bred not registered in the kennel club and they started their own registry. Health testing was mandated. In a couple of years they now have a larger and more diverse gene pool and more pups per year born and reentering the gene pool than the kennel club breeders. They are also using many of the dogs to work cattle, holding fun days, all of which is bringing in many new members who also want to see the breed work and help to save it from extinction. That is an open stud book where the tools they need to do what they need to can be done. it would not be possible, but I do not think likely, that if the kennel club folks now decided they wanted to increase their gene pool, then these dogs could come in. I for some reason do not think the folks outside the KC now would want to return but I could be wrong. TW this is all distant memory obtained by reading posts on a chat group, which may be distorted, so don't quote me. There are examples all over the place of breeds being bred outside the kennel club.

Australia already has methods of obtaining such 'native' dogs registered in order that they may be bred to ANKC registered dogs. The Basenji is a case in point. AKC registered Basenji breeders have been visiting Africa to obtain dogs, returning to the USA and having them placed on the register. The fact that Ms Harrison isn't screaming about it in the UK doesn't mean that all stud books are 'closed' in the manner you suggest. And indeed, if you want to find more examples of Canine Control sanctioned outcrossing of breeds they exist. SSM has a desert bred Saluki.. and sh's ANKC recognised and registered. No that is not how works, it is not a breed driven action. See what it means is the stud book for all breeds is open. All breeds, not just a breed where the parent club wants to do it. For exmaple, it would allow a working kelpie taken from a gene pool of 10's of thosands of kelpies outside the kennel club and bring it inoot the kennel club where there is a tiny closely inbred gene pool. And the kelpie breed club is not who makes this descions, and cannot stop it. This would be across the board for all breeds. Read the Uk rules. I am fairly sure this will be happening here pretty soon. I am so surprised that folks here to not see the real implications of this happening in the UK, it really is the most radical thing to happen in kennel club dog breeding since kennel clubs began. I think it is a direct reflection that change is no longer an option, the tools are being put into place now. If the breeders fail to use them and make changes, then laws will be put into place to force their use or the breeder can not breed.

I wanted to address this separately. Good breeding practices and options should prevent problems and that is the goal in my mind for the future of dog breeding. I do not see the need to make changes only directly at one breed at at time and only that breed. They should be applied across all breeds. Prevention of future problems is vital before they reach crisis. While this may indeed help to save some breeds that have reached crisis point, the bigger idea is to prevent crisis from happening in any breed. An example of this in practice is how The Kennel Club has opened the stud book to all breeds, not just breeds in crisis. So no, this is not about treating a breed in crisis. This is about treating a whole system that is is crisis. By treating the system, you will then give the breeders the tools they need to keep their breeds vital into the future. They may have opened the stud book but show me one established breeder who is willing to use one of these 'new' dogs. Well that may well be true and I would not be surprised. But I believe there is a whole new generation of breeders today and more inthe future that are ready for change. The future of dog breeds may well end up in their hands. Change is not always easy for everyone.