shortstep

What is it going to take for all people in Australia to wake up and see what is happening? Ok so now we going to pay for this with our tax dollars and we already know what they will make it prove. It will prove that training dogs is bad, haveing dogs do work is bad. Farmers are bad. I am sure there will be something else I left out that is bad. We know they are going after the working sheepdogs in this country, all the recent activity, studies and surveys. And I can guess that as usualy the dog world will polarize again and no one will come to the aid of the working dog owners after all theri dogs are not show dogs, not dd dogs and some would even say not pets (in fact thei are often the farmers best friend). It is so so very depressing.

http://www.austeaparty.com.au/peoplePower.html Action group fighting back against more restrictive laws in Logan QLD.

http://agmates.ning.com/forum/topics/dogs-...-properties-now Dogs on rural properties now have to be registered in Qld. Discussion follows. Please fill free to join in. This is a chat group of folks that live on the land or an interest in such. Can be a very policital group with several thousand members. I highly recommend it if you want to have a say in changes. Several members are in the government and this chat group is read by many in Canberra.

Could not agree more. DD dogs have no impact on purebred dogs. If people want to pay 1500 for a mutt let them. There will still be heaps of people who will want a well bred purebred dog. I also agree about the prefix, it is something to be proud of and should be treated as such.

I think that ANKC could be run better, have bigger goals and do more for the members, however I do not think that are the grass roots of the problem. That belongs to the animal rights groups, they have started and keep pushing any issue then can that will make trouble or help lead to the end of ownership of dogs. We as registered breeders are just one group of dog owners that are in the way of animal rights groups reaching their goal.

Jed tried to PM you, your box is full, can you contact me;>)

Here is alink to their new pet travel scheem. Follow the path for importing from Australia (is approved country) for no quarrantine. You need to follow the list of things to get done as well as all the applilcations. I would not attempt this without a shipper to lead you through it.

If it was me I would be taling to a importer (shipper) in the UK. they will know all the rules. Seems strange they would want rabies, 1 month titer and 6 month waiting period. That is more than they want to import from the US/Canada which actually has rabies (can travel from the US to the UK now with a pet passport) I know this as some friends of mine took dogs over (US to UK) for a trail last year. No quarrantine, right off the plane and straight to the trial. One person from Canada sold their dog in the Uk and left it there. All with no dramas at all. Yes I would be talking to an importer in the UK.

Just my opinion. (Did not see what breed of dogs or their ages so this is a general opinion). 10 days my not be ready just yet. Some bitches can get very randy and not be right on the mark ready yet. Some males will only breed them when they are right on the mark. Nothing wrong with this and in fact is good to have as you can be sure the bitch really was ready with this type of dog. So I would just leave them alone, stop fussing over them and just let them play and be together. Fussing over them and trying to help will usually make it take longer. I am always careful with a male dogs first time to not stress him out. Also a male that is nice to the bitches, takes their time, at least offers a date and dinner first, those are the best stud dogs to have. They can often mate bitches that no other dog can get near. Just something to think about. I do not usually see a males dogs penis prior to him mating the bitch, when they mount they will bring it out when they are ready to use it...LOL Dogs will often mount and play around many times prior to actually breeding. The younger and more inexperienced they are, the more they will play at it. Give them time. They will figure it out.

Sorry I do not think I am the poster? If it is me, what exactly are you talking about? :>)

Oh ok got it. I do hope you are right. With the resent flurry of studies and surveys on working dogs done by Unis, I was thinking them were getting some ammo ready for the guns.

Working dogs will be exempt because they are too frightened of the Australian Farmers Association. What makes you say this? They are not exempt from the NSW dog breeding act, it applies to them too. No working breeder orgnaiztions were consulted or even knew anything about the bill when it went through. They were not consulted, had no input, were shocked to read it and it does apply to them. When the Clover Bill was in progress I alerted the WKC and the AWBCR and they then insisted they be heard on the matter. But no one came to them and asked and again they had no idea it was going to mean they could not breed there dogs. This billed was not passed. Just to be clear to those reading, most working dogs, be they purebreds or not, are never registered in the kennel club. Some may be registered in a working register, but by far most are not registered anywhere. Many of these dogs will have been breed by their families for generations, even as far back as the mid 1800's.

Does this include maditory desexing all working dogs, like all the working kelpies, border collies and koolies that are not registered in the ANKC? Sorry but which council is this?

Yes I noticed that. They are demanding 'open stud books' so that parentage and ancestry of a dog can be traced back over the generations. For the greater good. They want and have that info, so that they can draw a line in the sand when in comes to COI's and place yet another restriction on what we can and can't do as breeders. ETA: of course that will be for the "greater good" Ok lets back up. Open stud books means the stub book is not closed to outside dogs from other non approved registries or dogs with out registration. To open a stud book means that you allow dogs that are not registered in the stud book or an already acceptable outside stud book to enter into your stud book. For example, if you open the stud book for kelpies, it could mean that all the WKC dogs and the farm kelpies could then be registered in ANKC (which they currently can not be). It can also mean that you cross the current population of a breed with another breed to increase the genetic diversity, another words controlled cross breeding. Opening a stud book or having open stud books, has nothing to do with allowing someone to see the pedigrees. Pedigrees are already public information, can be purchased on disc and the RSPCA opps I mean Syn Uni already have them. They already did the COI for the ANKC breeds and it was much lower than they had indicated it would be. I think Steve has those numbers. So the RSPCA calling for the stud books to be opened so you can look back at the pedigree, shows that they have no idea what is meant by opening stud books. Even though they have no idea what it means, and what they think it means is wrong, it is still a welfare issue in purebred dogs. Heaven help us. For the greater good. My apologies, I read your orginal comment incorrectly. I do understand what an open stud book is and how it operates. Yes I knew that However there may be many people (including the RSPCA Vic webpage) that do not know what it means. I was a miss not to start with education on the subject first, so everyone would understand my comments. BTW for those who may not know. A Closed stub book means that only approved outside registered dogs can entry into the breeding population. Neither a closed or open stud book in themsleves indicate anything about the heatlh or welfare of the breed in question. All issues surronding open, partial open or closed stud books need to be addressed for each breed as a seperate issue. There should never be a sweeping uniform 'correct' policy on closing or opening stud books for all breeds, that would be contra indicated and potentially a very reckless position reguarding health and welfare. All matters concerning opening or closing a stud book should be discussed on a breed by breed basis.

and substandard will include our homes... you will need DA approved kennels in order to survive as a breeder. The only other thing to do, will be move to NZ. Already on it LOL Well take me too. North Island please. You sure? I was thinking that South would be better. Little chance of another huge earthquake down there now. All the rebuilding wil make the economy strong. Lot of fresh air and wide open spaces, sure is pretty.

Yes I noticed that. They are demanding 'open stud books' so that parentage and ancestry of a dog can be traced back over the generations. For the greater good. They want and have that info, so that they can draw a line in the sand when in comes to COI's and place yet another restriction on what we can and can't do as breeders. ETA: of course that will be for the "greater good" Ok lets back up. Open stud books means the stud book is not closed to outside dogs from other non approved registries or dogs with out registration. To open a stud book means that you allow dogs that are not registered in the stud book or an already acceptable outside stud book to enter into your stud book. For example, if you open the stud book for kelpies, it could mean that all the WKC dogs and the farm kelpies could then be registered in ANKC (which they currently can not be). It can also mean that you cross the current population of a breed with another breed to increase the genetic diversity, another words controlled cross breeding. Opening a stud book or having open stud books, has nothing to do with allowing someone to see the pedigrees. Pedigrees are already public information, can be purchased on disc and the RSPCA opps I mean Syn Uni already have them. They already did the COI for the ANKC breeds and it was much lower than they had indicated it would be. I think Steve has those numbers. So the RSPCA calling for the stud books to be opened so you can look back at the pedigree, shows that they have no idea what is meant by opening stud books. Even though they have no idea what it means, and what they think it means is wrong, it is still a welfare issue in purebred dogs. Heaven help us. For the greater good.

and substandard will include our homes... you will need DA approved kennels in order to survive as a breeder. The only other thing to do, will be move to NZ. Already on it LOL

Yes I noticed that. They are demanding 'open stud books' so that parentage and ancestry of a dog can be traced back over the generations. For the greater good.

Speaking of this. Ever wonder what would have happened if the RSPCA, the Unis and the animal rights folks has spent all the money and effort they have spent on going after Pedigreed dog breeders, had instead be place towards educating the public about puppy farms and closing pet shops. Too many RSPCA or other funded UNI research projects on purebreds to count, this could have been studies on pet shop sales and puppy farms. Parliamentary enquiries, yes could use a few of those on puppy farms. TV and other news media attention seeking, Pedigree dogs exposed, now that reached millions and was shocking. Committees and panels of experts, meetings with experts and KC all over the world. On and on. This was and is a very well run campaign against purebred dog breeders. One thing is for sure, the whole world now knows to not buy pedigreed dogs because they are inbred and sick. Even today there is a full page on the Vic RSPCA reminding folks that ANKC dog breeders are a serious welfare issue. http://www.rspcavic.org/campaigns_news/cam...digree_dogs.htm However if you think about it, you can only 'take out' one group of 'bad' dog breeders at a time eh? Pedigree dog breeders are the easiest to find and identify, not only for those doing the taking out but also for the lay person buying a pup to identify and then avoid. Further, something like this below would never work, not all at once; Do not by Pedigree dogs they are inbred and sick. Do not puppies from pet shops as it is inhumane and they come from bad breeders Do not buy from BYB because they are unethical and only breed for money. Never ever ever buy from a puppy farm. In summary, there is no one or place that breeds dogs or sells dogs that is not a grave welfare concern. The act of breeding dogs, the act of selling dogs, the act of buying dogs and the act of owning dogs should be banned. Ah well, what to do, all things in due time. 为更大利益

为更大利益 LOL

If you are talking about my post on Finnland, I think you missed the message. 1. ban pet shop sales. 2. elevate and promote ANKC breeders as the best place to go to buy a pup. Not legislate, no where does she talk about extensive legislation. She talks about creating a different value system, you can not legislate a change of values .

O.K. so we ban the sale of live animals in pet shops - what then? People will still be breeding lots of dogs, people will still be buying lots of dogs, people will get more money for what they breed because there is no middle man. No middle man to filter out the rotten operators and act as a buffer between rotten breeders and the new owners. What then? Instead of being totally negative, and via that, either allow puppy farms to prosper, or registered breeders to suffer, why not try to be positive for once - if ONE thing happened - that is - the sale of pups in pet shops was stopped, there would be a huge improvement. You sell pups, you are aware of the time and effort involved in selling 100 pups. Imagine travelling 100 pups somewhere on a weekend and selling them? Even without any paper work, and very little dialogue with the buyer, no one would have time. Also imagine 50 puppy farms each with 100 pups to sell on a weekend. Where are the buyers? At least 70% of puppy farm stock are sold through pet shops. 50% of the people who would buy from pet shops would not buy elsewhere. Preventing the sale of pups in shops would need to be accompanied by a media campaign to educate people to buy privately. The RSPCA is keen on stopping puppy farms, they have lots of dosh, and the media smarts. Let them show how genuine they are by providing a media campaign for this Then concerned proper breeders can stop worrying, and the RSPCA can use the existing animal husbandry laws to raid whatever puppy farms remain. Look at it from the other side. I am surprised a breeder can't see the difficulties involved for puppy farms if the pet shop market was closed. Attempt ONE THING at a time in a positive way. For the good of the dogs. Everyone keeps demanding, them what would you do to end puppy farms, like there is an easy solution. this is a problem in most of the world and has been for atleast the 30 years I have been following it, so it is not an easy fix. If there was a known workable solution of how to do this, then it would easy to follow. I am not sure there are any examples to follow. However I have heard before the northern europe (Finnland for example) have very few rescue dogs. So I went looking to see what their situation was. I found this. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...=clnk&gl=au When I moved to Australia from Finland, I was shocked to see dogs and cats at a pet shop. I'm 34 years old, and I've never seen such thing before. The song "how much is that doggy in the window" made no sense to me before. I've owned 2 dogs in my life time, both of which I got directly from a reputable breeder. Breeding in Finland is done incredibly responsibly, even though professional breeders are virtually unheard of. The dog breeding and selling culture is very different, as well as is the general attitudes towards dogs. Dogs are highly respected, if an owner needs to give up a dog for any reason, they look for a new home themselves, shelters are almost empty. For any shelter dog, there's a queue of takers, and this goes so far, that Finns import shelter dogs from Estonia because the need to help dogs is so high. I believe all this is the direct result of the fact that pet shops are not allowed to sell cats or dogs. I don't know when this was banned, or if pet shops have ever even allowed to sell dogs or cats, but this is the way it's been since I can remember. It sends a clear message that these animals are special in the way that they need special conditions, special attention and special CONSIDERATION before buying. You HAVE TO go through trouble to get one, and not just get one at the mall the same time you get a pair of new boots. That is not to say that puppy farms didn't exist in Finland, but they are not common, and the public is generally appalled by them. The farms operate through a similar publication to the Trading Post, offering "pure bred dogs that are not registered because their paws are too big". The people who buy pure bred unregistered dogs are generally regarded as cheap snobbish idiots (fake Rolex -type of thing), which is a good incentive not to buy one from such place. Also, what shocked me was the price of a dog in Australia. You can get 2 rare pure breed dogs at the price of one... Not to even mention the more common ones. And, as I said, professional kennels are unheard off in Finland where dogs are mainly bred in close collaboration between knowledgeble hobbyists, who each keep 3-5 dogs at a time as house pets. (There's no upper limit or council regulations of dog amounts, but this is how it's mostly done.) The world would have a lot to learn from the Finnish way of managing dogs. (Tail docking was banned in the 90's and ear cropping in the 70's.) In addition, Finland is the host country to 2 of the 5 biggest dog shows in Europe, which shows how seriously we take our dogs, considering that we only have 5 million people in the whole country. (Attitudes are changed faster I suppose.) It would be a good place for a case study in support of banning selling dogs and cats at pet shops and thus reducing the available business of puppy farms. I highlighted some thoughts she expressed, though I thought the whole thing was really good. I also note how home breeders, same as the ANKC small home breeders of Australia, did not seeme to be regulated very much, were well respected, they did not even have limits on the number of dogs they can have. Which is just the opposite of what people want to do here, by over regulating and even calling for RSPCA inspections, pushing these 'good' breeders away instead of soliciting them to help change the behaviour of the puppy buying public. Very different attitude towards purebred dogs breeders and to dogs in general. So if it works in Finnland it would likely work here. Her idea is basiclly to ban pert shop sales and promote ANKC small home breeders as the best place to get puppys from. I am gone to watch a movie. Edited to say, I beleive when she say professional breeders she means puppy farms or large scale buinesses.

ANKC reg stats 1987 97,900 dogs registered 2007 64,0oo dogs registered. A current decline of 33,000 less ANKC dogs born per year than 20 years ago. It is estimate 1 million puppies are born each year in Australia. Apprx 60,000 of these would be ANKC dogs. Coming from ANKC breed enthusiast which I will call home breeders, BYB and puppy farms (opps I mean inspected and approved large scale breeding facilities). I would guess the breed enthusiast home breeders would be the smaller number of the 3 groups of ANKC breeders. Here is my 2 bits. Purebred dogs and their breeders have been under attack by animal right rights groups for some time. Australia has been particularly hard hit, perhaps due to the high rate of animal rights groups and the disjointed Fed/state governments. The Australian Uni systems are also well funded and doing much of the worlds purebred dog research, much of this negative in nature, such as what lead to and was often used in pedigree dogs exposed, the parliamentary inquiry in the Uk and so forth. Not to mention so much positive publicity for DD dogs from both the media and the universities. It has been a topic of discussion that Australia may well be the first country where purebred dogs or at least some of the breeds get banned by the government due to pressure by animal rights groups supported by the unis. Time will tell. We are on a very slippery slope and right now it is looking more like a landslide. We need to be fully aware that the ultimate goal is to end all human contact with animals (see animal liberation, PETA). Your right to own a pet dog is next. I will predict that in the next 10 years there will calls to take away the automatic right of pet ownership. A call for ownership restrictions are already happening, here and in other countries. Matters such as pet education and tests, license and permits required to buy a pet, even restrictions on what type of pet has been suggested, inspections of homes, income review, locations and other factors will all be used to screen people to decide if they are suitable to be pet owners. Where does it all end? Depends on how much people want pets I guess, how hard the animal rights people keep pushing and how afraid people well be to stand up and say enough is enough. X home breeder

If you had read it properly I am saying the exact opposite. Stand up, make yourselves heard and educate the public FFS grow up. You cannot say your puppy sales to owners do not in any way contribute to help keep your hobby afloat so pull your head in, otherwise you would be giving them away. This is the shitty attitude that will see the demise of the pedigree dog. You know why? You'll play everyone right into the hands of the mass marketing pet stores and farmers. I'm on YOUR side. I WANT to see more purebreed dogs but the attitudes coming from some pedigree breeders frankly stinks. But no .. right we just wont share our lollies with the other children This is not the world it was 30 years ago where mongrels were worthless and purebreed dogs sold themselves. The world is changing and to survive you MUST change with it. To ensure the survival of pdigree dogs - the public needs to be invited to participate in the pedigree world (open days, neuter shows, etc) - There needs to be cohesion and agreement within the pedigree world instead of backstabbing, whinging and self serving attitudes - There needs to be a push for the ANKC to use YOUR money properly and promote YOUR, YOUR EFFORTS AND YOUR BREEDS properly to the public - Mass marketing to show why pedigree pups ARE preferable to puppy farmed dogs - There needs to be pride and acceptance attached to people who want to breed their chosen breed under an ANKC kennel name and COE, they should be flocking to the ANKC instead they're leaving - There needs to be an overall feeling of achievement and pride in the buyer when purchasing a pedigree pup THe iron is hot and THE ANKC IS NOT STRIKING! People are now up in arms about this puppy farm/pet store issue and all I hear from the pedigree org and clubs is crickets chirping. It is ultimately about the dogs, but the sentiment still seems to be more about the people. LOL you are too funny. Look you go for it. Goodness knows ANKC breeders need a savior now and who better then you to lead them away from temptation and towards enlightenment. For the greater good.