shortstep

So is a max of one litter every 12 months written as part of the conduct allowed by a breeder by permit? Or is this the each group of breeder will be treated differently and ANKC breeders can only have one litter a year, where as oddles breeders may well be allowed 5 litters a year?

Hi Your young dog sounds to be the perfect fit for your family! Your question, does herding instinct switch on at a particular age, the answer is yes. However that age can be different in each dog. There are many stories of dogs not wanting to and even refusing to work stock up to even 2 years of age, then suddenly decided to work and going on to win some the highest levels of trialing in the world. Some of these dogs also going to be key stud dogs in the breed. I have also had pups at 4 weeks of age show clear working behaviours. So it would not be unsual for a dog at 5 months to not show any desire to work and then at a later date begin to show these behaviours. I would just keep my fingers crossed he stays like he is. Do you know if his parents grandparents and so forth were dogs that worked stock for a living, if so you may have a little more to worry about. Good advice on teaching a solid 'Come' and also a solid 'Leave it'. I would then not worry about it since you do not want a dog that herds, but do be ready to control any unwanted behaviours as the dogs grows up. You will do fine!

Excellent post and thanks so much for opening into real discussion about theses laws. .....Mr Shepherd assured me that in my particular case, since I have no plans to breed in the foreseeable future there is no need to apply for a Breeder Permit. However I now read at Section 19(a)(i) of the GCCC Subordinate Local Law No. 12 (Keeping and Control of Animals) 2007 that it specifically states that if you wish to keep one or more entire animals you must get a breeder permit. This is completely regardless of whether the dog is a pet or for breeding – the wording implies that any entire animal is a breeding animal. If you don’t apply for and are successful in obtaining a breeder permit and your dog is entire, whether you an ANKC registered breeder or an average pet owner, you are immediately in breach of the by-laws. Yes, as I thought it was. The original draft of this law passed around some years ago made it mandatory that only dogs owned by 'breeders' could be intact. So the answer I have been given on this thread was incorrect. The mandatory desexing of all dogs not owned by a permitted breeder is a very serious matter. ....I’ve seen discussion on the forum that ANKC breeders are the only ones likely to receive a Breeder’s Permit but with GCCC, once again, there is NOTHING in writing to suggest that an ANKC breeder has more right to breed their dog than any other dog owner. There is nothing in the Breeders Permit conditions to state that your dog must be purebred or that you be part of an Association. Only that you take reasonable care to not pass on hereditary defects. This is a very important. The whole bases given by some people in this thread that are supporting this law is to shut down all breeders that are not 'registered' "pedigreed' 'purebred'. this law fails to do that. Oodles and mix breeds or god forbid even an unregistered unassociated undocumented working sheepdogs can be bred. .... Could the person on this forum who keeps bleating about “results achieved by Mark Shepherd” please enunciate EXACTLY what those results are in relation specifically Maybe the 'results' are being treated the same as all other breeders? Not being singled out as 'pedigreed dog' breeders with laws to specifically address pedigree dog welfare issue that only they have to meet? A reprieve from beginning of Fit to Breed legislation, at least for the moment. ....I agree with a previous post that we should all be sticking together and it’s not enough to simply find a way round the laws temporarily for yourself and not care about the group or the future..... I am glad to hear you say that and hope others think more about changing their views on this topic. Again, excellent post with many important topics brought out into the light.

Not a problem Fit for a King, generalising is not a problem as long as it does not effect KC dogs badly eh? It really is time the farmers and graziers of this country to live up to kennel club standards and record keeping methods. If they are not able to produce these pedigrees or registration and can not meet those high standards of the KC breeders, then the shire should stop them from breeding their line of dogs. Just because some of these lines go back to the early 1800's and are still in the same families, does not mean that they know how to breed to the standards required in this shire. I think we should follow your expert lead on all areas of dog breeding and will just let the working dog breeders fend for themselves and we should allow the Australian working sheepdogs go the way of the dodo bird. For the greater good!! If that means taking out 200 years of Australian dog history then so be it. Moving on, did you know there is a new idea going around the animal rights circles in the UK and USA, Canada and already happening in some European countries (and actually at least one Uni in Australia really wants this put into place)? It is part of the plan to address the pedigree dog welfare issues. Instead of making working dog breeders follow the Pedigree dog model of how to breed dogs, they want to make Pedigree dog breeders follow the working dog model. It is called "Fit to Breed" legislation, you know COI below 1% in 6 generations, controlled cross breeding where needed, Breeding under EBV programs only, parents have to work to the stated standard or otherwise prove excellent health, fitness and trainability with other activities and tests, all regulated and controlled by panels of animal rights folks, genetic experts, population breeding experts, legislators and so on. Exciting times are ahead and I fully support this level of concern for the welfare of dogs. Yes Steve stop being sarcastic!

Firstly just to clarify - at the meeting they did mention dogs on other registeries and not ANKC registered dogs - but please remember that this meeting was for ANKC registered dogs, so we wanted to know how it would affect us registered breeders. Apparently they are going to have another meeting like that for ppl that belong to other societies/clubs etc - like cats, budgies, working dogs I guess. Since farm dogs are usually not registered anywhere, not in any societies, they would then be illegal to breed. I don't think for a second the real meaning of what I am asking or the real ramifications that you are supporting in this law is escaping you. I also think it is my duty as a dog owner to care about and be very informed about, all aspects of how any dog law works. Lets just suppose the working dog breeders and unregistered dog breeders got together with the Uni of Sydney and several other Unis around the world, the animal rights folks who are so opposed to purebred dog breeders and throw in some film makers to help out. They could make a very strong and powerful attempt to really go after and shut down purebred dog breeders. They could even get parliamentary inquiries to seek laws and severe restrictions on purebred dog breeders. Like legislation that all purebred pups have to come with genetic health insurance, that purebred dog litters will have to be planned using EBV done through the Uni, that all vets have to send to the uni all purebred dog illness and that breed standards must be changed to remove all structural extremes. Some breeds may be indentified as 'too late to save' and laws passed banning these breeds. The list of things they could want to legislated and control in purebred dog breeding is really very scary. Purebred dogs and their breeders could be changed forever and may not survive it. Just dramatics I am sure, this could never happen. But if it did happen, if you started to see it coming, would you ever want the non ANKC breeders to come to your aid and support?

I am confused, do you support the sale of puppies in shops or not? No I do NOT support petshops selling puppies. How is it confusing? I prefer to speak with him in person (he will know me once he sees my face - I consider myself a valued customer) and yes I will write to them aswell. If they continue to sell them I will let the owner know I will not be returning and will buy my supplies elsewhere. Why am I confused? Because you shop in a store that sells puppies. (Yes I mean shop there even once) The most effective, fastest, legal and available way to stop puppies being sold in shops, is to never, ever shop at shops that sell them. Everyone, right now, stop shpping there and tell them why every time you walk by the shop. This would also not be supporting radical efforts to end dog ownership in this country. It does beg the question. How many people demanding massive restrictive legislation to be placed on all dog breeders, as they believe this is the only way to stop pet shop puppies and puppy farms they support, are still shopping, spending their money and finically supporting the very shops that sell the puppies from the puppy farms?

I am confused, do you support the sale of puppies in shops or not?

I would call the WKC and ask them. She is very easy to talk to, tell her your needs and I am sure she help you find the right breeder. http://www.wkc.org.au/ Contact link at the bottom of the page, call the NSW house number Good luck!

Yeah and lack of caring and a conscience ;) I even note visiting the store I go to to buy straw, seed and supplies for my pets. They NEVER used to have puppies. Now they do. It breaks my heart to see them sitting there in their cage. Theyve had mini pins and fox terriers the past two weeks. All but one has been sold. Theyre charging in excess of $500-700 for these pups. ;) Last weekend when I went to pick up my supplies I observed as a family (mother and kids) purchased a puppy. It was the kids who wanted the pup, NOT the Mum but she gave into their constant nagging to get one. How bloody sad. The staff didn't help, offering to get the pups out for the kids to nurse, even before it was decided they were going to take one home. They were just happy to get a sale. Perfect example of an impulse buy and why pet shops should NOT be selling puppies and kittens IMO. Well I would never buy from a store like that. I would tell them exactly and in writting that I opossed the sale of animals in pet shops and since they were now doing this, I would shop elsewhere. I would then shop elsewhere.

Oh no this is expected and certainly will be part of the future for all pet owners. It has been sugested many times and by the most respected of the radical no more pets groups, that one of the best ways to get rid of pet dogs is to start going after the owners. Make it very difficulte and intrusive to get a dog. Must have permit in advance from the shire in order to get a dog, tests and/or classes prior to getting a permit, home inspections and approval of the breed wanted, making sellers of pets responsiable to do background checks and the buyers would have to pay for all this (part of getting the permit) and seller would keep the documention, it goes on and on. Yes this fits in very nicely.

Well that says it all and from several different areas. Let hope the council get some good council on the law.

Right on cue, do not answer the hard questions that call out what is really going on. Instead you take it personal and attack the person who questions what you are doing.

This is just a little part of a world wide campaign to end dog ownership.

I am not sure but I think I read that the bitch should not whelp while in quarrantine, that you have to time it out so they whelp after they get out (30) days. This means you have to send them prior to being able to do an ultrasound, so you are not sure they are preg. I agree about the heat.

Just out of interest, what is the population in these 3 shires? Web says just the city of Caboolture is 21478, have no idea what the 3 shires would total. Have no idea how to figure out how many families and individuals that would make but if you divide the number by 3 it is 7150 families. Will 40 small ANKC breeders be able to supply all the needed pet dogs for the community? Just lets say they each breed 1 litters per year that is 40 litters, average I believe is around 5 pups, 200 puppies a year. Take off 2 from each litter (80 pups) to go to show homes and that leaves 120 pups a year for the community. So using the 7150 singles or family untis that might want a pet, if they all go on a waiting list for pup, it would be 59 years before they all got offered one puppy. Well they do say if we can just get one generation raised with out a dog in the family that the resistance will end and dogs can be eliminated.

Thats nice. So I ask again are working sheepdogs or kelpies that are not registered in the kennel club allowed to be bred in this shire? MM say no, only kennel club dogs and breeders can breed in this shire, Do you agree and also say that only kennel club dogs and breeders can be bred legally in this shire? This is true for now - the definition of a breeder is someone who ever breeds a litter but the way they are wording it at the moment is that only ANKC breeders can apply for a permit and that each permit will be taken on its own merits and anyone seen to be breeding commercially will not be approved. Its not up on line but it was read out to me. There is a lot going on behind the scenes. Thanks Steve. I said on the other thread about the Gold Coast that this plan had been around for a while and I believe the goal was to take out all breeders. I do not think think this has anything to do with considering ANKC breeders as better. It has everything to do with shutting down all other breeders in one quick blow and then focusing the attack on the remaining few KC breeders that are all registered and totally documented with their shires. Maybe a good re-read of the Walrus and the Carpenter is in order, we are the oysters. "It seems a shame," the Walrus said, "To play them such a trick, After we've brought them out so far, And made them trot so quick!" The Carpenter said nothing but "The butter's spread too thick!" "I weep for you," the Walrus said: "I deeply sympathize." With sobs and tears he sorted out Those of the largest size, Holding his pocket-handkerchief Before his streaming eyes. "O Oysters," said the Carpenter, "You've had a pleasant run! Shall we be trotting home again?' But answer came there none-- And this was scarcely odd, because They'd eaten every one.

Yes that is a common thing with dog breeders, they often only worry about their own small circle in the dog world. You know in the US right now the working breeders (several are PhDs in genetics at the Unis) have sided with other interested groups (just like here) and are assisting with trying to take out the kennel club breeders. There has never been any love lost between the two groups. In the US there great efforts also going on to get all the KC breeders registered with their shires so they know who they are. Oh well, you know what they say, united we stand and divided we fall. Well let me ask you this, since taking out byb and puppy mills was high on your interest list, can a 'BYB' get registerd to breed with their not Kennel club registered dogs? What exactly is the definition used for BYB and puppy mills in this shire? Just checking again, a breeder is defined as an ANKC registered breeder?

Thats nice. So I ask again are working sheepdogs or kelpies that are not registered in the kennel club allowed to be bred in this shire? MM say no, only kennel club dogs and breeders can breed in this shire, Do you agree and also say that only kennel club dogs and breeders can be bred legally in this shire?

A breeder is someone who is either a registered breeder with Dogs Qld or in the case of cats - some sort of cat society (doesnt apply to me so didnt listen) and I assume with cows etc the same sort of thing. I beleive that just "anyone" can't get a breeders permit - you must be a registered breeder. How else will we ever stop the backyarders or people that breed fido to suzy cos they want pups, if they let just anyone get a permit? Thanks, I think I understand, but I just want to repeated back to make sure I have it correct. Ok so it is no longer legal to breed working sheepdogs or kelpies unless they are in the the kennel club in this shire (which none are)? Only desexed dogs must be ANKC registered? If you have a line of sheepdogs that your family has bred and used on the land since the mid 1800, you would have to have them all desexed, is that correct? So have I got it right, in a nut shelled they have made the only legal dogs to breed in this shire kennel club registered dogs? And is this the basic plan for the whole state? Is this also the case for the Gold coast plan?

Thanks everyone for the comments about the meeting. But can we back up a bit. Sorry to ask so many questions but I need to catch up. What is the definition of a breeder (who must get a permit)? Can anyone who wants to be a breeder get a permit as a breeder? No restrictions or qualifications needed? Do they inspect your property as part of getting and keeping a permit to be a breeder? Can you have intact dogs and not be a breeder? When you say that DQ breeders have made a special deal, what is different about their rules that does not apply to breeders without a DQ prefix? You say there are no restrictions on the number of dogs breeders can have, but then say breeders have to gain approval for the number of dogs you have. How is it decided if you qualify to have the number of dogs you already have or want to have? Space, breed, kennel, neighbors or?? Does this apply to working farm dogs?

Yes, and perhaps even more important, there is no survival of the fittest. We do not say to our pet dogs, go catch your dinner or you starve to death, go fight for your mate and win or no puppies from you and so on. BTW I not sugesting nor do I think we want pet dogs to be bred by survival of the fittest selection. We do not want a dingo, wolf or wild african dog in our family room (well ok I might, but most would not), we want a domesticated companion pet dog bred to be just that.

They do not say how many original cougars were left, only that they brought in 8 new cougars. Still, how fast the heart problem would come back or even if the heart would ever come back, would depend on how complex (the number of genes involved) the heart problem is and how genetically diverse (number of new different alleles available from the new population) the new cougars offer for replacement of the affected disease genes. If the new cougars do not suffer from bottle neck and have a wide verity of different alleles to offer, and the heart problem in complex with a good number of genes affected, then there would every reason to believe that after introducing the new cougars, the disease would be so disrupted or you could say so diluted, that all the future generations would have very little risk of presenting with the same set of 'bad' alleles. Over time they may have even less risk, again depending on how diverse the new alleles on offer were. Another words this would make the possible gene allele combinations so varied, as to make it unlikely that many if any of the the proceeding generations would inherit all the exact same 'bad' alleles. The very few that might be that unlucky to end up with all the bad alleles again would be a tiny number of the population and would be weaker and less likely to survive and reproduce. It could also be possible that any one of the 'bad 'alleles might be totally lost and replaced by the any number of 'good' alleles so the disease could never come back. I do not see this situation as one simple recessive gene and the first generation is free of the disease but the second generation will inherited it right back again. Most diseases, like most heart problems will have many genes involved. To replace all of the many new 'good' alleles now on offer with the single one 'bad ' alleles when there are no so many possible combinations on offer would be very difficult. You would have to start all over again inbreeding and very strongly selecting to reduce number of possible alleles (and even then be lucky as these individual alleles are likely not something you could see and select for or against) to actually reproduce the disease again. Think of it this way, lets say there are 8 alleles involved in the heart problem and the new dogs bring in 50 new allele possibilities to potentially replace the 8 'bad' alleles. The possible combinations over the generations are huge. Another difference in this form of breeding is the selection process. These cats will be using survival of the fittest, so the cougars with the strongest genes (which will include good hearts) are the most likely to reproduce. There is no assumption that the affected dogs (cats with bad hearts) will stay equally represented in the reproducing gene pool. any bad heart cats would likely not be represented at all once the number of unaffected stronger cougars increases. I see it as greatly increasing the genetic possibilities on offer, which reduces the risk of the disease now and if maintained as a diverse population would help to prevent it from coming back again as a significant problem in the population. At least that is how I see the possible long term benefit for the heart problem. Another totally different question is are these still the Florida cougars. I really have no idea. But form follows function, so I would assume the cats with the new genes (strong hearts) would predominate as their study numbers showed. However the cats that had other features that helped them survive in their environment would also be selected. I would guess they would settle into one type of cat (over time) and that would be different from both of the original populations of cats. Gees that was long winded and rambling, sorry. I need more coffee!

Could it be a case of Bull Sh*t More Sh*t Piled higher and Deeper.

$160.00 to attend. I do not donate to the RSPCA and certainly not that amount of money. I could and would attend if it was free, being offered by the RSPCA to help the dog community. But that is not the case, it appears to be a money maker and special interest group serving.

Not in your area, but good luck. Can you post the rules they have put into place?