shortstep

You realize we do not require all this for a person to have a child. You believe dogs should be more protected by laws, tests, screening, mandatory medical treatments and licenses than human babies deserve. Further you believe only certain superior people should be allowed to breed a dog or own a dog, yet anyone can have a baby. I think it is way way over the top. People in general are good not bad, though I know this is not a popular way of looking at humans these days. Can I ask, do you think you are a good enough human to own a dog? How many other people have you met in your life you think are good enough to own a dog, must not be very many since you feel all this is needed for them to cleared to own a dog. The more I think about it the more sorry I feel for you, what a terriable way to see the world.

I am not sure what you are asking, how to prevent any pup from being born into substandard condiions? I believe that is impossible, even with every law you can think of and constant policing, as long as people are allowed to breed at all someone will breed in substandard conditions. I have often thought that is the desired end point of having the laws. Someone will always do a bad job proving that no one should be allowed to breed dogs. One way to get rid of pupy mills would be to make it illegal to sell dogs. But there would still be some idiot around that does not desex his bitch and it gets preg and he does a horrid job of it. Sorry just rambling now, not much help.

Well exactly, that is your perspective. It is a common perspective among show dog breeders world wide and other groups of dog owners. They only focus on what is happening to them in their country, often only about their state, maybe even just their shire and sometimes only about their breed. I see it as a world wide effort to end all dog ownership. The attack on kennel clubs (meaning show dog breeders world wide) is just one of many attacks going on. But all groups from pet owners, working dog folks, breeders of all types of dogs, they all are under attack. This difference in perspective is what I see as a very big problem and the main reason why the animal rights radicals are winning.

Well Ok but then that would apply to those breed parent clubs that allow colours you do not want to see listed. The point is there is no end to the topics that dog people can fight about it. But the one thing they need to do now is to join together and fight animal rights radicals, but this is usually forsaken in the name of some stupid fight over things like coat colours. Another words most dog breeders can not join together with other groups of dog people because they can not abid the other groups and would rather go down with the ship then reach out and join hands to help all dog owners and breeders as one voice. Just took a quick look at UKC and the first thing on their web site is opposition to some pending dog laws. Then I notice a world championship for begal hunting and towards the bottom of the page a bit about other hunting trials. I know a lot obedience people belong to them as they hold a lot of trials. I do not have to want to be a memeber to get along with them and certainly not to join with them as a larger voice for the protection of dog ownership. That is all I am trying to say.

It's the infighting, ellz. No one can seem to get their act together You are very right, just like Ells statement about coat colours, stupid stuff in many instances to fight about but that is dog breeders for you. But be clear Ellz that ANKC also bans certain colours that have a very long and documented history in the breed and they refuse to change the standard to the country of origin to allow these colours. So it is on both sides, no group is free of silly ideas.

There are all kinds of registries. First one that comes to mind ASCA ( Australian Shep) the founding registry of the breed. Can't think of the name but the Jack Russel registry, around long before AKC registered Jacks. There is the United Kennel Club, which is legitmate, they hold great events for kids, also obedience, agility tracking and so forth, they register all breeds. (Put down by some AKC breeders but many people dual registered in both) do not confuse with continetal or a many other rat bag sort of clubs. Sorry I don't know about pit bulls but I would be sure they have their other registers besides AKC (maybe the UKC was their founding registry??). There is a working dog register for border collies, is the biggest register for border collies in the world, status is very high as is the only other register accepted by ISDS the founding register of the breed in the UK. There are heaps more, some are not really legitamate but many are very well respected. Edited to add, many of these "other' registries are accepted by the AKC. Some of these 'other registries" also have very high connections in some important places, like in government, Unis or other places that have some say or are postions of power in what happenes.

Looking at the ACT memvership form, Right on the application you have to disclose if you are a member of any animal organization. Also says 'It is important that members of RSPCA ACT are aware of the Society’s policies and positions on animal welfare and that they uphold RSPCA values'. Goes on to say memebership can be withdrawn.

LOL and who would donate 33 milllion each year to our side? And that is just what PETA gets in one year, then you have to add in RSPCA (which in part is your tax $ used agasint you) and all the other radical animal rights groups jocking for donation money. Not to mention the Green groups who want all domestic animals eliminated. Can someone show me where the RSPCA has put up a position (such as supporting dog breeder licensing in Vic or Tassie or QLD) to the general membership to vote on? While you are at it, I can not seem to find anywhere that the public can join the RSPCA, can someone show me a link to join? edited I found it you have to join in each state. I also see they say they can refuse membership to anyone for any reason.

Infiltrating and taking over organizations is a PETA tactic. Dog breeders in the US have not banded together. There is a huge split between working dog breeders, other registries and private breed club/registries in opposition to the kennel club. In fact, in a number of breeds there are far more dogs registered in 'other' registries than in the kennel club. In fact, the kennel club has done hostile take overs of popular breeds when the breed clubs have refused to join the kennel club. There is no love lost between the different groups of dog owners/breeders and the kennel club in the US. In my opinion, comparing AKC (not ACK) to ANKC is a like comparing apples and oranges anyway. AKC registered about 1.4 million dogs last year, ANKC maybe 60,000 if lucky. AKC is the largest Kennel club in the world with over 5000 local clubs. AKC has a huge profit margin with many full time lawyers and lobbyist. There is no way ANKC could begin to do what AKC does as far as fighting far left animal rights radicals. There are other huge differences. The US is 70% conservative, center to leaning right, left wing radical values are not accepted as easily into main stream thinking. The US has a totally different culture. The US highly values the rights of personal freedom, capitalism and ownership. For the most part they do not like nanny state laws and they are not a socialist country. The culture in general is far more likely to fight any preceived threat to freedom, both on a personal and national level. They also hate being told what to do. Dogs are far more integrated into society in America (and Canada). Just one example, dogs can stay in almost all motels and hotels, the better the motel/hotel the better the service they provide to dogs. So lets talk reality, using the USA as a model for Australia is not realistic in my opinion.

This is what Peta was pushing to reduce the number of unwanted dogs. If no dogs were bred for 5 years, dog numbers would fall. For most bitches, 5 years plus is too old for a first litter. A lot of dogs of 7 or 8 are not as fertile, and those around 5 which have probably never had a bitch wouldn't know what to do. The majority of breeders would not breed a 5 or 6 year old bitch. There would be fewer or no litters. If it was only registered breeders, the public would buy spoongles and pet shop jobs, and registered breeds would be forgotten. Are you aligned with Peta? Yea right, anyone reading my posts over time would know I am a full paid up card carrying member of PETA. I said 4-5 years and I have breed several 4 year old bitchs for the first time, perhaps not idea for some breeds but for many breeds it is fine. I was reading recently on a genetic health list that some breeds in some countries are not bred until they are 5 years old, as they want the dog totally proven in its work and in fact many of these folks were doing so with their dogs. Though I have heard that in some breeds they must be bred young or having problems whelping. Edited to ad, surely they can wait till the bitch is 3 - 3.5 years old before breeding it? Anyway I am sure for many not haveing a couple of litters a year would be too big an ask. But not to worry, soon there will be no litters at all buy law. BTW in case you have not noticed there are more oodles being bought right now than purebreds. The plan to control oodle breeding did not work either, and that plan was? Further I said it was just an idea and asked for other ideas. Instead calling peopel who offer ideas to stop the end of dog ownership PETA members, what is your big idea? or are you the real PETA member?

I will summarize what I see. You say as long as breeders do what you say and end up with 1 in four affected with SM and 50% of dogs at 5 years with MVD, that this is not something that should be cause for banning the breed. You are some how self rewarded by going around painting a hopeless future and horrid existence for Cavs. Knowing you are scarring the public, owners and breeders about how dangerous it is to own a cav is your mission and goal. You do not want a cav in your life, even a Cav from a breeder doing all the things you say you want the public to know about is still not acceptable as a dog you want to own. Of course you also add that even with all this testing, that owners are still going to very likely have a sick, suffering, medication expensive animal that you relentlessly keep describing. Your message is clear, the only safe thing to do is to not breed cavs and not own cavs. Run as fast as you can away from Cavs and their breeders. I understand exactly what you are doing. You feel compelled and have made it your mission to drive this breed to extinction, you just do not have the courage to come right out and say that.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nation...article1784108/ Every dog has its day – except, it seems, in Ontario. The world’s most celebrated dog owner, Cesar Millan, has been forced to tether his pet pit bull, Junior, at home during his current 11-city Canadian show tour. The reason: It’s illegal to bring pit bulls into the province, owing to a five-year-old government ban on the breed.

At the moment though, all I can think of for our Cavaliers ,is to get the Cavalier Buying Public ,only to buy from Cavalier Breeders who Heath Test and follow out the Cavalier Breeding Guideline Recommendations, in that way ,the Folk who buy a Cavalier, could be saved ,just maybe ,the Expense of the Medication for SM and MVD You seem to be doing a very good job of painting the picture of a very sick breed, I would say you put the fear of dog into most people who already own or want to own the breed. As I understand it, there is no hope of finding the genes in any multi gene disease (such as MVD and SM) at present. A new way to find these multiple gene diseases will have to be created first. I am sure you know that there is next to no hope for the DNA of these two diseases to be found in the forseable future. Since even breeding dogs clear of disease has proven to produce at least 1 in 4 affected dogs and this is the best that can be hoped for at present, would you like to see the breed banned from being bred until the DNA if found? Perhaps just leave a small breeding population in a program under controlled conditions to see if any further progress can be made.

Thanks Steve that was what I was looking for. Any mention how many dogs per 100 were "A" scored? Just wondering what % of the population they will loose right off by only breeding A dogs. Then of course they would also have to pass the MVD breeding proticals. That would tell the real population in the breed (in the UK) that are left to use. If 1 in 4 from 2 'A' parents are still affected then it is certainly still there and recessive in some from. To end up with intense inbreeding on recessive like that is not a pretty thought. I have heard comments that there are not enough dogs left to keep the breed going, but have not seen that in factual form. I have also heard it is a much better situation here.

It is so beyond belief. Maybe they changed who they are representing but for got to tell the membership? What is the economic status of Blacktown? Is it really the only way to help the folks in Blacktown get control of their dogs to license all pet owners in the whole state? If the government was held accountable like a business they would never be allowed to take off in this sort of wild direction of massive costs without a hint of evidence this will improve things in Blacktown, never mind the rest of the state.

I am now offering fortune telling at a very reasonable $$. Contact me to find out if your future is dogless 5 years from now! Yea more NANNY STATE laws! Is there a law and guideline on how to wipe your arse yet?

Look my posts X2 were both directed to the OP. Both times I was asking for the study links or more information about the study so that I know what they are talking about. I still have not recieved any links to the study stating that 1 affected out of 4 pups on A to A breedings was an improvment over what?, nor on the study that shows that cavs have a different type of MVD than other breeds. I can not become educated with just bits of selected information, I would like to read the studies. I was not schooling anyone, just trying to explain why I was asking for it. So you do not need to read or respond to my requests for the links to the studies, and you certainly do not need to read the studies if a link is ever posted if you do not care to read them. I will not post directed at you again.

Ok... So we're an expert but not REALLY an expert!?! Sunny Flower, it is expected when you post information from "studies" that you post a link to the study or at least give a reference to where the information comes from. For example, you would say. A recent study at Cornell Uni (Link to study) shows that Caves have a different type of MVD, which has an earlier onset then the typical MVD found in other breeds. Then we can read the study and see what it has to say. That is all I am asking for. Otherwise you have no idea if the information is in fact from a study, or was quoted correctly or perhaps incorrectly or is just someone opinion or conclusion but not proven by research, and if it is someone's opinion then you need to know what their expertise is, are they a PHD who has studied the disease or perhaps a breeder that has spent 20 years breeding cavs and following the disease affected patterns in their litters?? My questions about the SYRINGOMYELIA is again looking for the study (about A to A decreases affected pups to 1 in 4) so I can look for complete information instead of only the partial information that was presented. For example I asked what is A, someone says the best score, well what exactly is the best score, free of all anatomical and clinical symptoms? Then what is B exactly? and so forth it it goes all the way down to D score. So if breeding A to A (what ever that is) is producing 1 in 4 affected, then how much better is that then breeding a B to an A or B to B or C to a B. You also really need to know the baseline % of affected pups in the general population of random litters before you know if you are making any headway in test litters. Do you see what I mean? Someone else said that the screening and breeding A litters was the way to find the genes. This is not really how the genes will be found. The first thing you need to determine in pattern of inheritance and that is exactly what the information above I was asking for would begin to show. If you breed 2 A together and get 1 in 4 affected and if you breed 2 D's together (are their Ds??) and you get 100% affected, then you are beginning to pull out some of the information that will help predict the pattern of inheritance. so you need to know what the level of affected pups in all breedings. With out this you are looking for a needle in a zillion straw haystack

UNfortunately the Type of MVD the Cavalier Breed suffers from , the Cavaliers have it at a much younger age than any other TOY Breed. Can you sight a study or information that shows what different type of MVD the caves have in contrast to what other breeders have? Bet you can tall us about yourself? Do you breed Cav's or have you ever bred Cavs or any other breed? Are you an expert on these problems in cavs or only making sure the word is spread in Australia? If you feel you know something about this information on health you are passing on, why did you not address the questions I asked at the begining of this thread? Here they are again Bet, for those who not up on it, What is "A" ? What is the precentage of dogs tested in the general population that are "A". Another words of 100 dogs tested, how many would be A's? So what they found was if you bred 2 'A' dogs together, that 1 out of 4 pups was affected? Do they (who is they?) believe that one in 4 is an improved rate on a previose rate? What was that rate? What is the current rate of affected dogs in litters that are from random parents (parents not tested and found to be 'A'), is it higher than one in four? Any further sugestions on reducing it down from 1 in 4 affected rate? It is always correct when sighting a study to add the link to the study so we can read it for ourselves.

thats why i suggested lobbying (there are professional lobbyists) getting the point across to the right people (not necessarily the pollies but definitely their advisors/chief of staff's) looking at starting a campaign with electronic and print media....and getting those media contacts on side. almost everyone has a pet and they dont understand the issues...remember all the pollies, their families, the journo's potentially have pets...they need to understand what is in the wind...we need to get them engaged in this issue and start a public discussion AKC in the US has a strong and active lobby effort. Here is just a little of what htey are working on http://www.akc.org/news/sections/legislative_alerts.cfm

I do not like the thought either but feel something drastic needs to be done and soon. What are other options? As far as the ANKC taking action, that would be another issue that would be addressed if breeders stopped breeding. Again the outcome is not certain. But if everyone lets their prefix laps, which you then have 5 years to reinstate, for those 5 years you are not a breeder and you are not paying prefix dues. There would also be no pups registered. All loss of funds. ANKC would have to reorganize due to the loss of funds. Now more people are affected, ribbon supplies, dog shows connected such as motels and restaurants, agility trials and so forth would all be at risk. No dog at the Royals would attract more attention provided their several ANKC booths handing out information. It would also demonstrate clearly where the ANKC needs to reorganize. Their role needs to be much more than just keeping records and insurance providers. Anyway it is just an idea, but truly we have reached the point where something has to be done. As far as breeders being afraid of loosing their dogs, Steve is totally right. As much as those who want to bring an end to dog ownership might unfairly paint most dog breeders as a bunch of criminal dog abusers, we love our dogs. We would do anything, including not breed, if that is what it takes to keep our dogs home and safe. We should not be held emotional hostage.

ANKC breeders are just a tiny drop in the huge bucket of dog breeders. But they will be the only ones that are identifiable and being inspected by the RSPCA. (with the exception a some known puppy farms). Personally I think all ANKC breeders across the country should stop breeding, in protest. The RSPCA would then have no ANKC breeders to inspect. The public upon finding your web site or listing on DOL or contacting you from word of mouth, will learn that you (and all the ANKC breeders) have stopped breeding in protest. No ANKC puppies of any breed are for sale in Australia and it is clear why. It really is no problem for ANKC breeders to stop, at least for 4-5 years. All the horror stories then posted on DOL every day about poorly bred dogs, bad breeders, people who buy sick pups would have nothing to do with ANKC breeders. But it would beg the question, why is this still happening, where is the RSPCA and their inspectors? The over 1 million pups still being born each year (in real puppy farms, by real uneducated and often real uncaring BYB and also those being sold in pet shops) will still be there. The responsibility for finding and inspecting these breeders and the blame for their continued existence will lay directly at the RSPCA feet. Sometimes I think people need to get what they wish for.

Well said!

Also not a dig. I have often thought, that the best way to solve a problem is to jump in and do it your self the right way. I really think if someone thinks they know a better way of breeding pups then they should be doing it. If all the people who want to dictate how pups should be bred, started to breed pups it would be a great for the welfare of dogs.

LOL Oh so true!! But poor McGreevy, he is being outdated now because the new hero message for today is massive spay neuter laws and severe limitations on breeders to make good choices. Does not jive with what he has presented that we need to increase genetic diversity. Think how useless a national wide microchip mandated vet input disease databank for the Uni to make EBV's with will be, when there is no choice of intact dogs to use in the EBV breeding scheme. It must be very hard being a animal rights activist these days. Swing to the left and you are a hero, but in no time you are just not left or radical enough and end up looking like a conservative animal abuser. Things are moving along fast eh?