shortstep

You said that working dogs in OZ did not look like working dogs in the UK, No I didn't. Go and read again perhaps. You said Interesting info shortstep. Those dogs on the websites you listed look nothing like the dogs I remember from my childhood in the UK. I used to watch the sheep trials.

You said that working dogs in OZ did not look like working dogs in the UK, so I showed you two recent International supreme champions, you can not get more UK trial dogs than this, and both are smooth coated and both could be found on any paddock in OZ. So I think what you do not like about them is that they are smooth coated. However 50% of all border collies in the world are smooth coated. In Australia more than 50% would be smooth coated due to conditions in the paddocks. It is only the ANKC standard that says you can only have rough coats in the kennel club. The UK Kennel club, American Kennel club, New Zealand, FCI which is most of Europe, and more, all say smooth or rough does not matter. Ok what is ISDS. ISDS is where all the OZ show dogs should have come from. ISDS is the founding registry for the breed. It is a stud book, a registry, yes they have pedigrees and it started in 1906. It did get going right before 1901 but was put a side due to the war. It has operated ever since 1906 except for the years of WW11. It is accepeted by, The KC british kennel club, many european kennel clubs, the AKC american kennel club, the NZC new zealand kennel club and the CBCA/CKC Candian border collie club. It is also accepted by all working registires world wide including here in OZ and in NZ. They only accept ISDS parents. American Border Collie (ABCA) which is pure ISDS lines or CBCA Candian border collie which is also pure ISDS. They are working now with AWBC (Australian working) to accept the dogs with legitmate pedigrees going back to ISDS dogs. ISDS will not register any KC registered dogs, however if they have maintained their ISDS or working registration in an acceptable registry then they will register them. So I hope that helps you understand the role of ISDS both in the history and the current culture of the breed. ISDS is where the breed became organaized, registered and had it's stud book, ISDS is the foundation registry of the breed and still operates today. ISDS also ;eads the standard in sheepdgo trails around the world, today even holding 'the world trial' in differnt countires each year. Most people in the world with border collie have working dogs and ISDS is where it all started. ISDS registers more border collies in the UK and europe than the Kennel clubs, ABCA registeres more than 15000 more border collies each year than American Kennel club does. There are far more working border collies in Australia than ANKC dogs.

Which standard? The ISDS (UK) founding registry for the breed in 1906? Everything I see in this standard describs the working border collie in Australia perfectly. This standard would fit the working dogs in OZ and the UK, or anywhere else in the world. Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in Australia in the 1950's? Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in the country of origin the UK in the mid 1970"s? Have you read this show dog standard from the country of origin? Smooth coat are fine, ears pricked are good too, coats of any colour except mostly white are good. Not that a show standard could ever really discribe the border collie, there is nothing in this standard that the majority of working border collies in OZ would not fit. However, while it is clear the working border collies here in Australia or anywhere else in the world are not bred to look like a standard, it is hoped that the standard discribes what the dogs actually do look like that are being bred to do their job. As in, form follows function. To original poster, The pedigree of your dog has some of the very best working kennels in Australia today. Many are well known lines that can be traced all the way back to ISDS and the first dogs imported to Australia from the UK . Many of the lines are top 3 sheep trial lines, but you also have some lines that are very good cow dogs as well as station dogs for both cattle and sheep. It should be a fine dog, certainly purebred and the pedigree reflects that this pup has been bred to the standard of top quality world class working dogs that the border collie is. Well a standard is really just a guideline, and obviously, interpretations vary so yes, both show and working dogs could potentially fit the standard. Howver,obviously, i am not BC expert, but from an average persons point of view, the show-winning dogs today, do not look like working BCs in Australia that I see. In my opinion, there is LESS of a difference in the appearance of show winning dogs and working sheepdogs in the UK. Short or less coated BCs seem to be preferred for Australian conditions and i have never seen one of those in the ring, even though it is apparently permitted in the breed standard? The reason you will not see a smooth coats in the ring in Australia is they only allow rough coats. All the other standards for border collies allow for smooth coat, UK. FCI, USA and others in Europe. You will see mostly smooth coats on the paddocks here in OZ as the rough coat is very impractical so no one wants that coat on a working dogs down here. Same can be said for many parts of the US and other countries. In the UK about half the dogs are smooth coat and about half are rough coat. You will find breed ring champions in the UK, USA and Europe that are smooth coated BTW.

What a stunning dog ! Sorry for the OP for going OT but in the UK there also appears to be different types of registered collies which I'm not quite sure how that works? You have your BC's of which many have ISDS registration which has been mentioned and to me look very similar to what I know as a working border collie here. There are also collies registered as 'working sheepdogs' - which I am not going to make a generalisation about how they look as I have only ever seen a handful. Only reason I know there is a difference in the way they are registered is that there are a couple of awesome working sheepdogs competing in agility in the UK that are not eligible to compete at worlds because of their registration. Anyone know if it only relates to pedigrees/ISDS rego. or are there actually subtle differences between the two, kinda like the differences with NZHD being known as a different breed (which to all intents and purposes look to me like smooth coated BC's.) Ok it works like this, ISDS founding registry of the border collie 1906. They only accept ISDS dogs, and they accept ABCA American Border Collie reg and CBCA Candian border collie reg which are build off all ISDS lines and no kennel club dogs. ISDS wil not accept any KC pedigrees. The Kennel Club is the show registry just like ANKC here, only they accept all ISDS dogs, always have and always will. The will accept show dogs from OZ too, so you have a mix of some show dog imports and pure working bred too. Some people dual register in both. Working Registery is like the Associate in ANKC here, these are dogs without pedigrees or were not registered in ISDS or the KC. This is used only in the KC to allow these dogs to do trials, agility and so forth. So they are not registered dogs and do not have pedigrees. Only purebeds can compete in FCI world cup, they would have to be ISDS or KC registered if on the UK team. Here is the 2010 International Supreme Champions, another looker and a dog you could find on any paddock in OZ. http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=htt...%26tbs%3Disch:1 BTW these 2 dogs Mirk and Tweed, their bloodlines are here in OZ in the working dogs already.

Don't know what lines his dogs are I would suspect a conbination of the older OZ and some imported ISDS lines along the way. There is a constant influx of ISDS bloodlines being brought into the working dogs in OZ. All of them are going to come from ISDS lines, but how far back can very from pedigree to pedigree. The 2008 (UK ISDS back to 1906) International Supreme Champion looks just like the dogs on any of those web sites. Right handsome dog he is too. Would look right at home on OZ paddock. http://www.peze.com/evansdogs/mirk.htm Can you tell me how he looks so different to the working dogs on the websites?

Wow.. Yes, the bitch (mother) has Kip - (Nell/Nap Rom) on both sides GP and GGP One more tid bit. http://www.waddyscollies.com.au/pedigree.php I believe this fellow can tell you all about the Rosedale lines, I beleive he is using Roesdale Trubo lines and thinks the world of them.

Here is a bit more about another dog you mentioned. Kip (Imp) ISDS 218586 This dog was imported and was ISDS registered. A son of Turnbull's Nap ISDS 188631, English National Champion 1993. Grandson of Fortune's Glen who has sired so many super sheepdog that are found in many current pedigrees. Dam of Kip was Nell ISDS 177305. Nel's sire Jim ISDS 155787 was exported to the US and is found in many top US cattle dogs today. Edited to add. Jim was son of McSwiggin's Chip 77779, 1977 International Brace Ch, who is found in so many top trial dogs coming out of Ireland and the UK today. This dog's dam was red (called chocolate in OZ), so if you get a red pup in the future, it likely came all the way down from this dog. Kip had a son name Gooch, who I meet. He was a full time station dog working cattle and sheep until old age. He also trialed on sheep and cattle in his youth. He was a dog with a lovely temperament and sired many good work dogs.

Just wanted to add. One of the kennel you had stated was McCullum. (If I have the correct McCullum kennel) . This kennel is well known around the worldfor top quality working dogs. Breeding dogs from many years in Australia, he moved to the US and took some of his dogs. They soon earned a reputation for being some of the best cattle dogs in the US and Canada. A McCullum dog sold at the Red Bluff Bull and Working Dog Sale for some amount (if memory serves) near $23,000 US dollars which was about $46,000 AU dollars at the time. Breaking all the price records world wide for a working dog at that time. Added, I found the story http://www.mccallumk9.com/BretVenable.html He has since come back to Australia and you can contact him via his web site. http://www.mccallumk9.com/index.html

Which standard? The ISDS (UK) founding registry for the breed in 1906? Everything I see in this standard describs the working border collie in Australia perfectly. This standard would fit the working dogs in OZ and the UK, or anywhere else in the world. Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in Australia in the 1950's? Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in the country of origin the UK in the mid 1970"s? Have you read this show dog standard from the country of origin? Smooth coat are fine, ears pricked are good too, coats of any colour except mostly white are good. Not that a show standard could ever really discribe the border collie, there is nothing in this standard that the majority of working border collies in OZ would not fit. However, while it is clear the working border collies here in Australia or anywhere else in the world are not bred to look like a standard, it is hoped that the standard discribes what the dogs actually do look like that are being bred to do their job. As in, form follows function. To original poster, The pedigree of your dog has some of the very best working kennels in Australia today. Many are well known lines that can be traced all the way back to ISDS and the first dogs imported to Australia from the UK . Many of the lines are top 3 sheep trial lines, but you also have some lines that are very good cow dogs as well as station dogs for both cattle and sheep. It should be a fine dog, certainly purebred and the pedigree reflects that this pup has been bred to the standard of top quality world class working dogs that the border collie is.

Sorry but trying to read the report, can you tell me if this is right? I see it as saying she is less than 25% Rott, and then a true mix bred. With Chi, Itl Grey, Dasch and Maltese making up the next breeds. I can see how a dog could be as small as her and be a combination of these breeds. I also think I can see some traces of these breeds in her. However, what every Angle is, she is certainly a cutie !

I am wondering about the ethic's of breeders in other states placing dogs into Canberra (or the Goldcoast) after this law goes into effect. If Canberran's do not want purebred pups in their state with out the dogs coming from breeders being under tight control of the government, then I would say that they would not want another state's breeder to send dogs into their state. I am sure they can't make a law to say that, but that would be the wish of those who want this law put into place. Dogs/pups coming into ACT from breeders in other states would defeat the whole purpose of having tight control over every pure bred dog in the state. I do mean only purebreds too, as it is obvious that BYB and designer dog breeders are not traceable and will fly right under the radar, so I am sure there will lots of these dogs available for the folks of ACT to enjoy.

Ask me and the whole concept is off the rails. The state of Victoria requires certain DNA testing, yet they are not requiring breeders to send them lab results. You are assumed to be following the law and are threaten with punishment if you do not. If this is good enough for the government, then it is more than enough for ANKC to do to their own members. The bottom line seems to have been lost. DNA tests are aids to help the breeders breed better dogs. Not hoops to jump through, trophies on a shelf or to be used to make life difficult for breeders. ANKC is suppose to be working for the members, breed clubs are suppose to be working for members, to help them use these tools. Personally I think a DNA Normal or normal by parentage on at least one parent in every breeding for CEA and CL is more than acceptable, both here in OZ and internationally. It prevents the pup from being affected and protects the buyer and breeder by assuring no affected pups. The rest should be up to the breeder to decide what fits best in their breeding program. TNS can be nothing more than a recommendation at this time. If breeders wants to do more DNA testing of both parents and/or all offspring then by all means they can. A signature from the breeder that they have met the requirement is all that is needed to accompany the litter registration form. There has to be some trust of all breeders until proven otherwise, just as the state of Vic trusts their citizens to follow the law. However there is so much more that could be done by the breed clubs and ANKC..... The most respected modern politically correct KC in Europe (Sweden) and maybe the world is not requiring DNA testing for CEA, CL or TNS on border collies. For CEA, clear eye exam/cert on both parents is the minimum requirement for them. I did not see anything about CL, which has a zero DNA carrier rate in the northern hemi lines at present and a low rate in the imported lines, so prevalence is not high and I assume education and breeder discretion prevails. But they do require hips scores on both parents because HD is the most likely health problem to be encountered in the breed today (now that CEA and CL is controlled). However it is not a severe problem in the breed so their requirements allow the breeders as much room as possible, FCI A or B scores are required which is equal to Borderline, Fair, Good, Excellent OFA, and equal to (not sure) AVA 25 ?? or less. All test results are collected directly from the labs or vets and reporting is mandatory and public. For my breed they have a public on line system of all hip elbow and shoulder scores, eye cert results and any DNA tests the breeder decided to do. Also temperament tests, working tests and general physical inspection scores. All the information is shown on a lateral pedigree with COI. All relatives are listed with their scores. This is far too much information to go on the average pedigree. But is far more helpful then only knowing just the scores of the parent or grandparent, but have no idea what all the siblings and grand siblings and offspring were. So clearly they are moving towards doing EBV style breeding plans. I am very impressed as they have kept their efforts focused on helping the breeders by collecting and making available in a usable format good information to allow good choices by the breeder, with the key word being choices. They are not spending all their time trying to write rules to catch breeders breaking those rules. Nor do you hear the breeders speak about each other in such negative terms or thoughts. Decisions are made by groups of experts in the different fields of science, data collection and breeder members. Personally I think we need to leave all the time and energy spent on policing concepts behind and get back on track, working for the breeders, giving breeders the help and information they need to make good choices.

This is a really important topic and there are several facets to it. This whole DNA testing thing is a brave new world, which in a way has gotten away from us and I'm not sure whether we will ever be able to catch up with it and get it back under our control. As soon as we think we may have it under control, the goal posts get shifted or the technology changes or one of the testing companies goes feral and we're back to square one Firstly, the ANKC Conference in October passed a set of Protocols for the use of DNA disease testing: ANKC Regulations Part 6 The Register and Registration ANKC Protocols for DNA-based Disease Testing (Added 10/10, 6.7.1) The DNA Program 2.10 The program focuses on DNA testing to determine genetic status of breeding stock. It is vital that ANKC confirms effective protocols to ensure that: a) There is scientific validity and accuracy in test results: the test must be published and/or peer reviewed; there must be no room for fraud on the part of owners; there must be no room for unknown/accidental matings. b) Breed councils and clubs are aware of the requirements should they wish to introduce Litter Registration Limitations. The Protocols 2.11 DNA collection DNA collection is by approved, independent, trained collectors, including veterinarians. Owners/breeders cannot collect from their own dogs. Approved collectors would be those accepted by State CC’s or nominated by breed clubs. 2.12 Positive identification Identification of the dog by microchip or unique (as part of a recognised Australia wide based tattoo system) tattoo is required, it must be verified by the collector at the time of DNA collection and recorded on the form. 2.13 Collection method DNA sample collection is via non-intrusive buccal swab, or blood collection. Blood samples if required, should be collected by a registered veterinarian. 2.14 Parentage testing For verification of parentage, both parents and the offspring concerned must have DNA profiles. 2.15 Clear by parentage (CBP) for a Specific Disease Where both parents are clear for a specific disease-causing gene, their offspring may be assumed to be clear of that disease. Where specific LRLs are in place, those offspring that go on to become breeding stock, parentage must be confirmed either by parentage test or disease test prior to breeding. Where litter registration limitations in a breed require disease testing of breeding stock, after a number of generations with no reported cases of the disease, the breed council (or in the absence of a council, the majority of breed clubs) may declare the Australian population of the breed to be clear of the disease. The litter registration limitations may then be altered to require only imported animals, imported semen and stored frozen semen to be tested. [The number of generations would be decided in conference with the relevant breed club(s) and the CHWC. Additional advice to be sought from geneticists/advisory breed council.] So, basically, the ANKC recognises Clear By Parentage for the purposes of Litter Registration Limitations, as long as the protocols are followed. That sounds really easy, however when you consider the Border Collie situation, things take a turn for the worse The Border Collie community chose to introduce LRLs for three diseases, CL, CEA and TNS. These LRLs are supposed to take effect on Jan 1 2011. However they don't conform to the requirements of the ANKC DNA protocols. The TNS test has never been published or peer reviewed, so it can't be put in an LRL. That doesn't say that you can't keep using the test. The LRLs that were agreed to also don't conform to the Clear By Parentage protocols. Parentage must be proven to claim Clear By Parentage. I know there are many BC people that have three or four generations of clear by parentage, however most, if not all, haven't done the profiling to prove parentage. Some have tested CL with Alan Wilton, some with GTG. Alan Wilton's markers for parentage don't match GTG's - it's a minefield!! And to really put the icing on the cake, GTG have now decided they won't do more than one generation Clear By Parentage !!!!!! Bloody hell....... The Litter Registration Limitations that were voted on can't be put into practice on January 1st, 2011. The new company that's doing DNA testing, ASAP Laboratories, will do Clear By Parentage for as many generations as you like, however they can't do the CEA test, as GTG has the licence from Optigen. They will recognise results from other laboratories, which GTG won't! I don't know what the answer to all of this is; as I said above I think we've lost control of DNA testing If anybody has any real concerns about all of this, I'd be happy to talk to them about it. Cheers, Sylvia Power Chair, Dogs Vic CHC Thanks Slyvia! I was aware of all the lab confusion with the different tests. I agree about the TNS, recommending it would be the best that could be asked for until it it is published and reviewed. I was not aware that we are not required to do profiling, for some reason I thought that was part of the new year protocal, so I started doing it with my last litter. But you are right, I have several generations of clear by parentage and have not profiled all of those dogs. But they are still with me and it is not a problem to do so, if the lab results can be used. Frankly I can not see how you can do Clear by Parentage with out profiling. So is nothing going to happen when we try to register a litter after Jan 1? Same as today and they wilnot be requesting lab results? I do hope that ANKC does come up with a method to record health testing on the pedigrees and a method to carry forward Clear by parentage. There are registries that do this now, so it can be done.

Thanks! At least there is still some hope then. Though I also did also hear that they were only going to accept lab results and the the labs woudl only give one generation Clear by Parentage, as the other posted said. Isn't this supose to start 1 Jan11 ? when are they going to let people know what they need to do?

Well I only breed my own dogs and I trust myself and the lab samples I and my vet send in. The dogs are profiled and microchiped. That is enough. I have to do on each parent, 3 DNA tests, profiling, Hips, Elbows, shoulders, Eye cert pups and parents, that is enough. The least the ANKC can do if they are require these tests to register a litter, is to keep the records of clear by parentage so we (their paying customers) do not have to keep retesting just so we can hand them a certificate which the previous DNA tests makes redundent. BTW what ever happened to trust, like you sign a statement in front of a notery saying the dog is clear by parentage and write down the parents test numbers or grand parent test numbers on some form. I know all ANKC breeders should be treated like criminals until proven other wise, but this really is a bit too much. So are they doing retesting every other generation in Northern Europe (the model of political correctness in dog breeding)? When I looked at my breed last they did not even reguire one DNA test, never mind retesting DNA clear by parentage dogs, they accepted a clear eye exams and did nothing about the other 2 DNA tests. Are they doing it in the UK this way? Are there any countries requiring repeated DNA tests on Clear by Parentage dogs? Or is it only us doing it this way? Shortstep - I think you are missing Silverblue's point. The DNA swab for offspring to confirm Clear by Parentage is a DNA profile - not a test. It is to prove that the dog is actually a result of the claimed mating - verifying clear by parentage. In my breed we have to do hips and elbows. We are also supposed to do vWD - (most bernese breeders don't!)I have done all of mine, and only use outside males that have been tested and are clear. That way I can profile any offspring that may be used for breeding to verify that they are Clear by Parentage. CBP DNA profile is $70 This is cheaper than testing the puppies for vWD which is $125. If you had to test for PRA or CEA at $200 you'd be saving a significant amount by DNA profiling to confirm parentage. The only way the ANKC could keep the records and verify CBP is if all puppies were microchipped and DNA profiled prior to registration. Trust - pffft what's that in the dog world?? I want to see copies of all health tests before I use a male - and I expect to provide the same in return. The ANKC can't certify that a pup is clear without proof of it's parentage. No that is not what was said above. they said you could only use clear by parentage for one generation (yes yes yes we are all doing profiles but that is not what I am talking about a profile does not look for the DNA test it only says who the parents are). Ok lets follow it through. Dog A DNA profiled and DNA clear of disease X. Dog B DNA profiled and DNA clear of disease X. Resulting pup C, DNA profiled and Clear by parentage for disease X. Next litter Pup C above, Clear by parentage for disease X and profiled. Dog D DNA profiled and DNA clear of disease X. Resulting pup E, Profiled and not considered DNA clear by parentage. (Because it came from a clear by parentage parent) Now I go to bred Pup E, must retest by DNA for disease X and profile. Right? Every other generation we have to retest, even if we are only breeding DNA clear dogs, another words we have cleared our lines and only breed our lines, but we still have to keep DNA testing every other generation. Am I wrong??

Well if that is the attitude we take with all things in dog breeding it will be the end of it. The whole purpose and proper use of this technology is the benefit of not having to keep doing the same DNA disease tests over and over again, once you clear your lines of the disease. We have to use common sense. Besides, we can not go around not trusting anybody to do the right thing or to tell the truth. There is a limit to what is possible, and spending thousands repeating tests that you already have done by DNA so there is no guessing and you know the answer, is far above and beyond the call of duty. There is nothing noble about being wasteful with money. If we want to give our money away, at least give it to a charity where it will do some good, instead of making some laboratory rich for no good reason.

Well I only breed my own dogs and I trust myself and the lab samples I and my vet send in. The dogs are profiled and microchiped. That is enough. I have to do on each parent, 3 DNA tests, profiling, Hips, Elbows, shoulders, Eye cert pups and parents, that is enough. The least the ANKC can do if they are require these tests to register a litter, is to keep the records of clear by parentage so we (their paying customers) do not have to keep retesting just so we can hand them a certificate which the previous DNA tests makes redundent. BTW what ever happened to trust, like you sign a statement in front of a notery saying the dog is clear by parentage and write down the parents test numbers or grand parent test numbers on some form. I know all ANKC breeders should be treated like criminals until proven other wise, but this really is a bit too much. So are they doing retesting every other generation in Northern Europe (the model of political correctness in dog breeding)? When I looked at my breed last they did not even reguire one DNA test, never mind retesting DNA clear by parentage dogs, they accepted a clear eye exams and did nothing about the other 2 DNA tests. Are they doing it in the UK this way? Are there any countries requiring repeated DNA tests on Clear by Parentage dogs? Or is it only us doing it this way?

And so they should be, as in my case where it was proven the sire registered on the pedigree was not infact the actual sire !!!!!! It is suprising just how often this occurs. I did not read anybody saying we should not be doing profiling, as I said I have already started to doing it. However this does not change the fact that we will all now have to repeat DNA disease tests ( 3 DNA tests in my case) on 2 dogs every other generation, (not to mention hips and elbows every generation), when the ANKC could keep records and help out the breeders so we do not have to keep testing and waisting money on something we already know. But like I said you guys must have a lot more money then I have. So how many DNA test do you have to do on your breed?

Yes but then their pups will need to be tested again, even if they are the result of 2 Clear by Parentage parents. Get it? We have to keep testing every other generation, profiling or not.

I already started doing doing DNA profiling with my last litter. (and last litter might be the answer too) But haveing to do all the DNA work all over again every other generation is just too much, 3 tests on my bred. It is just too much of an ask, when it is being done for no good reason. Especially when the ANKC could keep the records and all we would need to do is profile the parents to prove they are who they should be. I guess everyone else must have a lot more money than I do. Steve I do hope that MDBA is going to serve it's custormers with a bit more concern and service???

I had heard that this was going to be the case. So we can look forward to years and years of paying for DNA tests on dogs we know are normal. Bet the labs in Australia are jumping for joy!! So is the ANKC doing anything on the pedigrees fopr us at all, or just making sure we hand them the test results and we are on our own to figure out how to pay for all this testing over and over again?

Regarding ANKC. For some breeds DNA disease tests will be required for registration of the litter after the 1st of the year. Has anyone heard how we will be documenting our DNA disease tested dogs after the first of the year? My real question is how will Clear by Parentage be brought forward over the generations on the pedigrees? For example in the coming years, if I buy a pup and 2-3 generations ago all the DNA disease testing was done, and the great grand parents were all DNA clear, how do I prove/show and carry forward that my pup is clear by parentage? Will this be brought forward on the reg papers each generation, so that the information never gets lost no matter how many generations have passed since the tests were done? Regarding MDBA Registry Steve, do you have input yet for this topic on how MDBA will handle this issue of documentation of DNA disease Clear by Parentage?

Yes you are right! Should not take too long and if you get it wrong, oh well at least you tried. Be sure to send the Greens a thank you note for allowing you the pleasure of doing this lovely task over the holidays! What a nice present! Be Green, Go Veg, Vote Green! We don't eat them, we don't wear them and we don't own them! Want a dog, get a stuffed toy!

Yes you are right Mita, I am not as confident as you are. I do worry that it might not be right to push my personal beliefs on to all of society. I know that pets are man made slaves. I know the world will be a greener place without them. I know it will end their suffering at the hands of man. But I also wonder deep down if they do not, just a little bit, enjoy their lives with me as much as I enjoy spending my life with them. But not to worry, I will put those fears away. I will try harder to be a good global citizen and I will fully support all laws that bring grief to pet owners and pet breeders. Mandatory desexing of all pets in every state. All slave dog breeders need to licensed and inspected by the RSPCA, the council and the planning department. Strong and powerful laws to convict slave dog breeders with and as many costs put on to slave dog breeders as possible. I am in and you have my support! We must get these slave dog owners and breeders in line. Be Green, Go Veg, Vote Green. End dog slavery today!

Scoff sometimes I just feel like I am bashing my head agaist a bunch of watermelons, sort of like this http://www.maniacworld.com/Man-Smashes-40-...-with-Head.html