shortstep

Maybe so, many would have tackled the same topic differently, but one thing's for sure, if I have understood it correctly, the points made in this article/thread are well worth considering. When I started reading this thread, I dismissed it as extremist. The more I read & think about it, the more valid I see the warnings to be. I'm surprised at how many people in this thread seem to have missed the whole point of it. One day it might be too late, I hope not. I agree. Many of the best recipes call for the pot to be stirred, it prevents everything settling to the bottom of the pot and setting up like concrete. Never hurts to stretch your comfort zone, at least for most people.

So you are saying that as long as the parents are health tested and all the boxes are ticked re conditions both physical and emotional for all concerned it doesn't matter if the dogs are unregistered or even crossbred? Or have I misunderstood? Ok now I am confused. Are you both saying that if the breeder ticks some boxes about emotional management and health testing they they will not be bashed? Is that it? As far as heatlh testing who will be making the list of what heatlh tests must be done so the breeder does not get bashed? Who will be checking to see if the breeder actaully did the health tests, perhaps an open data bank for the other breeders to review prior to condemming? Liz I believe you breed or have bred Cavs? Can you go down this list of diseases that are listed on the now imfamose animal welfare abuse web site about Cavs and pick out the diseases you actually get a vet exam and document about, or DNA or scans or MRI or lab tests and also indiacte which ones you do not do any formal health tesing on? Or if you have not bred then the ones you would expect other breeders to be doing or they would be subject to condemnation. Blood platelets Brachycephalic Breathing Cardiac valve disease (CVC) Cataracts Cerebellar Infarct Chiari malformation Chronic Pancreatitis Congestive heart failure Corneal dystrophy Curly coat syndrome Cushings disease Deafness Diabetes mellitus Distichiasis Dry eye syndrome Elongated soft palate Endocardiosis Entropion Eosinophilic Stomatitis Epilepsy Episodic falling syndrome Everted laryngeal saccules Eye disorders Fly catchers syndrome Glue ear Hearing disability Heart disease Hip dysplasia (HD) Hydromyelia Hydrosyringomyelia Hyperadrenocorticism Hypothyroidism Infarcts Keratitis sicca Keratoconjunctivitis sicca (KCS) Knee dislocation Laryngeal collapse Lock Jaw Macrothrombocytosis Masticatory Muscle Myositis Microphthalmia Middle Ear Effusion Mitral valve disease Muscle hypertonicity MVD Pancreas Pancreatitis Patellar luxation Platelets Primary secretory otitis media Progressive hereditary deafness Progressive retinal degeneration (PRD) Progressive retinal atrophy PSOM Retinal dysplasia Rough coat syndrome SM Stenotic nares Stroke Syncope Syringomyelia Syringohydromyelia (SHM) Syrinx Thrombocytopenia Thyroid disorders Thyroiditis Vision disorders BTW with so many listed health probems, are you using or recommending that breeders use EBV? Also one question off topic, progressive hereditary deafness in Cavs, can you tell me about this? Is this a dog that has normal hearing at birth and then gradually becomes deaf during young adulthood or thereafter? Is there also congenital deafness at birth? I have a friend who is doing DNA research on adult onset deafness and is looking for other breeds that are affected. She may be close to having identified the gene in at least one breed. (When I am not being wondered about by Sheridan, I spend a lot of time investigating health disorders in dogs, support research and generally make a nuisance of myself with experts in the different fields of dog health).

Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this. Nice try but no prize. Deflecting your own lack of condemnation of people who keep dogs in deplorable conditions just makes me wonder. Sheridan if you know about abuse you need to report it. I can say it a few more times if you like.

Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this.

Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this.

Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this.

Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this.

all dog breeders? even the puppy farmers? so in your opinion all breeders are important and all make their contribution. I will make it easier for you to answer and only ask one question. do you really include all dog breeders in your above statement What you want is to make me judge and cast blame on other dog breeders. You want to make me say I think some breeder is a bad person. Just the idea that I wil not do this seems to really upset you. I am not going to speak about other breeders in meaningless negative general terms. This is where we are different and what the topic is all about. I actually thank you for your participation as I think this has driven home the problem very well.

Stand along side them where? Like in chruch? or like in court testifying, or in the breed ring? Next one needs more clarification. Does it have to be all of those things or just some of them or even one of them. For example, my neighbor keeps his sheepdogs in pens, and they spend most of their day in the paddocks, they do not health test, but they do have vet care. I do not think he is a puppy farmer. In the past 9 years he has only had one litter, his dogs are well treated, enjoy their life, are fed well and are really very happy. This family has had this line of dogs back to the early 1900's and they even go back to the mid 1800 breeding sheep dogs, they are so interesting to talk to about dogs. Would you consider that a puppy farm?

all dog breeders? even the puppy farmers? have I missed your answer to my questions? No I did not see your question. If you want to define exactly what you are calling a puppy farmer is then I can answer your question.

Oh, well that is because she is looking at the bigger picture where lables are not the center of world. But if you must bring it down to a lable to understand, then go with pedigree dogs breeders. That should work just fine. Hope that helps. Again, your interpretation. She doesn't say, 'Oh, I'm looking at the big picture and don't put labels on any of this'. And again, do you intend to stand shoulder to shoulder with BYB and puppyfarmers and unethical registered breeders? Do you just go, 'Oh, dog breeder, must not criticise' no matter what stripe of breeder it is? The dog breeder that crams ten dogs to a cage that has a wire floor and covered in faeces? Are you okay with standing shoulder to shoulder with that breeder? Sheridan, it just occured to me. She did not say but I am sure she would mean this. I promise you, she was not talking about you, you can complain, bash and lay judgement about dog breeders till your hearts content. OK.

Oh, well that is because she is looking at the bigger picture where labels are not the center of world. But if you want bring it down to a lable, then go with pedigree dogs breeders. That should work just fine. Hope that helps.

Not sure what study you are looking at, but using the sydney uni information, the RSPCA and the reports coming out the Uk on pedigree dog welfare investigations, then oddles, mix breeds and dog bred for work outside the kennel clubs would be coming out on top. Be careful what you wish for you just may get it, and I do think you understand that Mita. I've already mentioned the contents of the study I was referring to. One that looked at specifically how registered breeders raised their puppies & managed their numbers of litters. This is getting repetitive. Not surprising when I also posted that Poodlefan & Jed have been the only people who've picked up on that study & its significance. I'd ask you what I 'wish for' that I 'might just get'. Except I don't have to wish for anything. Quality already exists in the registered dog breeding world. It gets swamped by all the borderline paranoia in threads like this. It simply needs to be made more aware to the public. I'd also ask what you mean about that assorted bunch of dogs 'coming out on top'. If it's constitutional strength, marked by life span, Danish research found a bunch of pure breeds topped that scale. As I've said, it's a case of breeder preference. It's a breath of fresh air to deal with my preferred registered breeders. Mita you need to send the studies to the folks who are in the process of making all the laws about the welfare of pedigree dogs. They are the ones who have to think those studies should be used to make the plan and laws to protect the welfare of pedigree dogs. For some reason they have been lead to believe that purebred dogs are not in a good way.

There's nothing in there about the intent of the rant article. You may be misreading the intent since people can only go on what's written. My reading of it may be wrong but so may yours. The intent as you call it is where it should be in the first few lines, at least that was how I was taught, Here is it Breeder-bashing isn't a new concept. However, with our rights to breed dogs under constant attack from the animal rights terrorists, led by none other than The Humane Society of The United States (which is in no way, shape or form a "real humane society", but rather an extreme animal rights organization), one would think that dog breeders could find some common ground, stick together, and dispense with the superiority complexes. No such luck. That means, it is about her frustration with the way breeders go about bashing each other, only feeding people like you who have a lot of complaits about purebred dog breeders. Hope that helps.

Not sure what study you are looking at, but using the sydney uni information, the RSPCA and the reports coming out the Uk on pedigree dog welfare investigations, then oddles, mix breeds and dog bred for work outside the kennel clubs would be coming out on top. Be careful what you wish for you just may get it, and I do think you understand that Mita.

Thanks, I need that. LOL

You are confused that I hold two different plans of action for 2 different registies, breeds, and breeders? Well I am only following what has been said by the OP about the other breed. Some pretty bad breeders are in the kennel club, so clearly something drastic needs to be done. The Unis and RSPCA have been trying to come up with some plans to protect these breeds and work with the orgnizations that are having these sorts of problems, so that is what I would sugest they follow. 10 point plan and so forth On the second group ISDS, I know this group well and they are very concerned and ethical breeders, working in the best interests of the breed. No one outside the group would have the knowledge and skills with the breed that they have, so it is best to leave them to do what they know how to do best, breed great dogs. Does that help? nope, all I see is a double standard. The breed you know best is above reproach so should never be checked up on, others who aren't up to your standard should be pinned down with even more rules and regulations. Ok lets start again. The standard of what was happening in the ANKC breed (breed unkown to me) was set by this statment QUOTE (MEH @ 1st Mar 2011 - 10:50 AM) I believe cross breeding as well as pure 'BYB's' and 'puppyfarmers' unethical. I know a large group of Breeders Registered and Unregistered in my choosen breed that do no health testing and don't provide life time support and don't screen homes.....Ching Ching Ching! Ok so I will accept that as true, it is not my statement of the conditions her breed is in, it is her statement. I gave the statement for the condition of the ISDS/ABCA, which is how I understand the situation. If you see a double standard, it is because the first posters opinion of the condition of her breed is very different from how I understand the condition of the ISDS dogs. I did not set the condition of her breed, she did. This is further demonstrated by the government, the unis and the RSPCA all wanting legal action taken to solve some of the problems being reported in pedigreed dogs. In contrast to, the ISDS ABCA being given awards by leading Unis for their efforts in health and welfare for their breed, and by the lack of interest by any group uni or government to make dog laws about their breeding practices. This is not my double standard, it is just what is happening. All of the demonstrats exactly what the orginal post was on about. Now I am fine with it, if the ANKC breeders doing the bashing understand and want to have severe government intervention on every part of dog breeding in ANKC.

You really do not understand? That ANKC breeders are getting exactly what they ask for?

Dead right... the proof lies in the outcome. The australian research showed that the significant majority of registered breeders had more control over the numbers of litters they produced, than did unregistered breeders. And this control was linked with better welfare outcomes for the puppies. You & your fellow breeders are highlighting your preference about controlling litters. Which has positive outcomes. This needs to addressed and right away. You should pick a number of litters that is ethical and would prove they are bettering the breed and would assure the poistive outcomes desired. Maybe one litter every 3 years would be good. Then make this a law with some government oversight. This is such a shame to hear this is happening in the ANKC.

So the kennel clubs have unethical breeders and should be constrained by outside bodies but the ISDS breeders are perfect and shouldn't? But you agree with the article that says no breeder is unethical? I can only respond to the information and really could be considered a warning that the other posted presented. I do not think it matters where they register their dogs, if there is a lot of bad stuff going on then maybe they do need outside help to fix it. This is exacty what is being proposed by the Unis and the RSPCA and parlament hearings by the governments. So we can conclude they have listened to the people saying there are big problems in kennel clubs dog breeding. Right now as we speak they are trying to take some action to protect the pedigree dogs. This is the point of the writer we are discussing. ISDS ABCA on the other are not bad mothing each other, are trying to do the right things and are doing really good job. They have not found themselves in need of attention of the gevernment nor do need breeding laws to prevent unethical behaviour. That is the point of the writer too.

:D You are confused that I hold two different plans of action for 2 different registies, breeds, and breeders? Well I am only following what has been said by the OP about the other breed. Some pretty bad breeders are in the kennel club, so clearly something drastic needs to be done. The Unis and RSPCA have been trying to come up with some plans to protect these breeds and work with the orgnizations that are having these sorts of problems, so that is what I would sugest they follow. 10 point plan and so forth On the second group ISDS, I know this group well and they are very concerned and ethical breeders, working in the best interests of the breed. No one outside the group would have the knowledge and skills with the breed that they have, so it is best to leave them to do what they know how to do best, breed great dogs. Does that help?

No never bred an Aussie, I only had the one dog. Yes that is exactly what the type of thing she is talking about. I know I have been guilty of doing this over the years, I hope less so now.

Well lets talk about CEA and working border collies in ISDS and in ABCA (sister orgnization in the US). ISDS has always had maditory eye screening for CEA going back so far I cannot remember when it came it, before I was in the breed. I believe the ANKC is still trying to get this mandated. ABCA and with support of ISDS arranged the reserchthat found the gene for CEA and did the bulk of the funding for oever 8 years. They also have several PhDs in dog genetics on their health board and several expert vets in dog health. They are currently funding reserch in Hip dysplasia and have cerated a new way to screen at 8 months of age that is very effective, they have just funnded research in to adult onset deafness and they thing they have found the gene, they have been funding gene testinf for epilepsy and have been doing so for about 8 years, bu no luck so far and they have ruled out an simple gene explinations. They also did the largest health survey of any breed, several 100 thousand dogs were surveyed for health problems. They in fact have been given several awards by leading unis int he world for going above and beyond in their efforts to protect the health of working border collies. I would say they are one of the most open, honest and progressive dog registries I have ever incountered when it comes to health issues. I do not think they need another group breeders or the government telling them how to screen for health problems.

Perhaps not but its a good start. Why health test? Because you can prevent problems in dogs that in working environments are generally solved with a bullet. I think you know I do all available heath testing, so I am not the anitc** of heatlh testing. However this is a totally different subject on which the collective you and I, hundreds of experts around the world could go on for ever about and there will be many many points of view. Here we see the same problem again, the This is what I do and I know best, so do what I do or you are unethical blanket approch to dog breeding. It does not solve problems.

Oh yes I have heard this too. I am in total agreement with you. I think the only thing to do is to make very strick laws covering the breeders and breeding practices in your breed. Maditory health testing, inspeciton by the RSPCA of the breeder homes and their dogs each year. All planning of litters should have to go through the Uni ANKC welfare monitoring program to be approve prior to breeding based on EBV, COI, temperament tests and fitness to breed tests. I am pushing hard for this as I so agree with you, we need to do something.