shortstep

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Norway has a very high level of education and guidance for it's breeders. They would have a panel of experts, both in the breed and in science who would be reviewing trends in the breed and helping to decide what needs to be addressed. I would guess that there is a guideline or limit on COI for this breed. I would love to know what it is is if you speak to the breeder some time about it. I would also think there has been a lot of education on keeping every dog possible in the breeding pool, and the use of carriers and even possibly affected would be encouraged. Also not promoting limited registration or placing most pups on breeders terms so they can have at least one litter to help protect the future of the breed. Getting as many dogs as possible contributing to the next generation would be very important. I would guess the reason the other siblings have not been tested yet is that they don't really care, they do not base any decisions on if the dog is a carrier or normal. Another words they will not choose the dog to breed because it is normal, nor will they cull the dog from breeding because it is a carrier. When all of the other things they are looking at to make the decisions to breed have been decided, and they are preparing to breed the dog, only then would they look so they can use that information as needed in the mate selection. Doing this prevents breeders from selecting normal dogs over carriers. As they do not have the information so it cannot shade their opinion one way or the other. The dog really will get picked because it was a good dog to breed, not because it would make their kennel or the litter all PRA clear. Have you ever seen this on web site. 'All our dogs are DNA Normal on X Y and Z diseases!" On the surface to the uneducated it might sound very good. But over the life of a the breed, if this desire to have all DNA normal dogs and kennels is a breeding priority, then this is very bad news for the breed. Take your breed, over 40% are carriers of PRA and 5% carriers of CEA. if you remove all these dogs from breeding, you can in one generation clear the 2 diseases from the breed. But you also lost 45% of your total breeding population and 45% of your possible genetic diversity. When it is already know that the total effective population is around 50 dogs, that would have been cut by 45%, leaving an effective population of only 23 dogs to maintain your breed. I know of some breeds where this culling of carriers has happened and they have lost up to 30% of the population in less than 2 generations. Just think what we would be saying if we lost 30% of breeding dogs to say parvo, but we willingly toss them out only because they are carrier a disease we can fully control. Glad to hear in Norway they are getting it right. I am sure that is the case here in Oz too.

Dogs NSW Magazine Oct 2010 I am so far behind in my reading but had a few seconds to look at the above Oct issue. I read on page 23 'In Plain Sight' All dogs found to be affected or carrying PRD (PRA) should be removed from breeding programs. Is this right? Is this what is taught and what everyone does and aspires too. All carriers are removed, across all breeds and all breeding programs? Is that right? 'Saint Bernard Profile' page 29 section 'Health' Only topic is about diet, there is a notation of several paragraphs about diet for proper bone growth (?). No health problems are listed at all. Not one word. So who are these breed profiles written for? Are they for the public to help them become educated on the breed and to be informed buyers? At any rate, I am thrilled to read that there is not one health problem that warranted being listed in this breed profile about Saints. Just had a chance to look at the other breed Aussie Shep. They also have no mention of any health problems. About 1/3 of the written text is devoted to their appreance.

Yes, it's been an interesting read. I don't believe that an extremely new and inexperience breed club like the Toller club of Germany has the knowledge and necessary research behind it to want to open the stud books and do it correctly. The only two clubs that have that knowledge and experience is the US and Canadian clubs. Majority of Toller breeders will not send any Tollers to Germany any more for fear that their dogs are used in a cross breeding program. Unfortunately it is now a damned if you do damned if you don't. I am curious though, for those with linebred dogs in other breeds what is their COI? The COI is of interest in the Toller because the minimun inbreeding level in the breed is around 25%, not that any dog is 25%. Another words there are not any dogs with less than that number left in the breed, but there will many at that number of higher. this off course means at the number of generations they are using, which I think would be 10 perhaps or maybe the total number back to when the stud book closed. The Germans feel that no matter which dog they use, even if they import, they will still only be getting the same genetics they already have. I was doing some reading this morning and found a lot of interesting things and have a lot of questions. Firstly that they have north american farm collie type dogs in them and this is further proven by the presence of CEA. I think they also show border collie type dog in their looks very strongly. What was interesting about the CEA is that in most of the population the carrier rate is very low at 5%, but in some distinct and seperate lines (they did not say what made them seperate or distinct) it is almost 40% carrier rate. Are most people DNA testing for CEA and would most people avoid using any CEA carrier in their breeding programs? The prcd-PRA carrier rate is thought to 40% or higher. So I assume most people are testing for this. Are you using affected dogs for breeding? I assume you are not breeding carrier to carrier? So this would eliminate 40% of the population from the selection process for any litter bred from a carrier. Will owners of clear dogs normally pick another clear dog for breeding, so would avoid using a carrier? From Carrier to Clear litters, are the breeders selecting only the clear pups to breed forward from? Is the breeding goal to clear the lines as soon as possible? Can you already see a drop in the number of carriers in the breed?

Thanks for the links will read them this evening. I was going to guess 10 generations but did not want influence you. I know all the work done with poodles has been on 10 generations and most people I know who work in the area usually talk about 10 generations. Personally I think that 3-5 generations really only shows the recent history and can hide dogs that have a long history of high COI. 6-10 shows more of what will be effecting the dog today. Total COI (all generations of the breed) shows the long term breeding histories and patterns. All good to know, but I think if you want to know about what is affecting your dog in the here and now the 10 generation is the most valuable with perhaps a 6 generation for a more recent view. I have ask at Sydney Uni how many generations they used and never heard an answer. I am thinking they used 3 generations, not sure why they would have done that?? Anyone know more about this? My dogs at 6 generations run usually less than 1%, at 10 generations about 3.5% and total COI back to early 1900s is about 6-7%. They are considered low inbreeding levels, and in fact those numbers would be considered outcross by most systems. However when I showed them the the Uni folks doing the 10 point plan, they sugested that 0% COI at 6 generations should be the goal. I can not do that for more than the one off odd breeding and it would offer no choice in selection of dogs. (but who needs to select for anything else but COI eh?). I guess this is the point, there is really only one direction one can move over time in a closed stud books and that is to ever higher COIs. How fast will depend on many factors such as popular sire, number of avilable dogs, number of different dogs used, keeping as many dogs as possible in the gene pool and using them. Other factors that can have real effects in a shor t period of time is culling for disease. I noticed in my breed a large culling of carrier dogs once some DNA tests came out. This was not good for the breed and will only hasten an increase COI and a decrease in diversity. Worse is there is nothing that can be done to bring those dogs and their gene back into the gene pool, they are lost forever and lost over a disease which could easily be controlled.

So what do you think about it and how it affects your dogs and your breeding program? BTW have you done COI on yor dogs? I am not sure how many generations they used for that 25% rate, do you know how many generations they area talking about?

Canada?? I do not know much about the breed. I am thinking more in terms of all purebred dogs rather than this breed. I am sure popular sire syndrome is part of what has lead to the high COI even more important the high rate of dogs homozygous in DLA class II region, but also a small population when the stud book was closed and even just closing the stud book on any breed. Once a stud book is closed there is only one way the COI can go and that is up and there is only one way the diversity of genes can go and that is down. As I understand it, the 'idea' is that in a breed when this happens, that there is nothing left (genetically) to choose from, so you cannot try to outcross from within the breed to reduce COI or increase the diversity of genes in the offspring. No matter which way you turn to breed you will only be getting the same stuff you already have. When immune systems are involved, the more diverse the genes in the dog the healthier immune system the dog will have. Immune systems work the same way in populations, the more diverse the gene choices are in the population, the more likely when you breed two dogs you will be getting different genes, and this will make the pups have better immune systems. What studies like this are showing is that this is more then theory, they are actually starting to do the studies to attempt to prove it as fact.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20136772 Association of a dog leukocyte antigen class II haplotype with hypoadrenocorticism in Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers. Hughes AM, Jokinen P, Bannasch DL, Lohi H, Oberbauer AM. Department of Animal Science, University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA. Abstract Canine hypoadrenocorticism (Addison's disease) is due to a deficiency of corticosteroids and mineralocorticoids produced by the adrenals. Although this is a relatively uncommon disease in the general dog population, some breeds, including the Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever (NSDTR), are at increased risk for developing hypoadrenocorticism. A prior study has shown that the increased risk is due to a heritable component. This potentially lethal disorder is hypothesized to have an autoimmune etiology, thus the aim of this study was to determine whether genetic susceptibility to hypoadrenocorticism in NSDTRs is associated with genes of the canine major histocompatibility complex [MHC; dog leukocyte antigen system (DLA)]. Samples were collected from NSDTRs diagnosed with hypoadrenocorticism and healthy siblings or country-matched controls. The DLA class II alleles and haplotypes were determined and compared between cases and controls. We found seven different haplotypes of which the haplotype DLA-DRB1*01502/DQA*00601/DQB1*02301 was significantly more prevalent in the diseased dogs (P = 0.044). In addition, these affected dogs also were more likely to be homozygous across the DLA class II region than the control dogs (OR = 6.7, CI = 1.5-29.3, P = 0.011). We also found that homozygous dogs, regardless of their haplotype, tended to have earlier disease onset compared with heterozygous dogs. These data indicate a limited MHC diversity in North American NSDTRs and suggest that the MHC may play a role in the development of hypoadrenocorticism in the NSDTR, supporting the autoimmune origin of the disease. Would be interested to hear how people think this study (granted it is only one but evidently there are many many more just finishing up or in the works) on what it will mean purebred breeds or all purebred dogs in general, inbreeding, open stud books and so forth. I guess that from what I have read in NSDTR COI rates (amount of inbreeding) is a minimum of 25% and the effective population world wide is genetically equal to 50. I understand that the German kennel club has requested the FCI to open the stud book for controlled cross breedings in an effort to 'save' the breed and to reduce disease. I understand our Claire Wade (Sydny Uni) is in opposition to this idea, as is the AKC. However there also seems to be very strong support world wide from most experts in genetics to support the opening of the stud book.

I asked the OP way back at the beginning of this thread, if the breeder was a ANKC registered breeder? The fact they are offering puppies with no papers, is not good in my mind and may be because the parents are not registered or because the breeders is not registerd. In this is case it would mean that all this fuss about this breeders email, deposits, and so on might all be about a breeder that is not an ANKC breeder at all !! So I ask again, has the OP found out if this breeder is operating within the ANKC system? Is she a registered breeder with a prefix in ANKC? Or, is she not in ANKC and is selling unregistered pets or perhaps farm dogs? BTW can the OP please say exactly what a BYB is and what it is about this breeder that is known to her that makes her not a BYB?

Autosomal recessive Severe Combined Immunodeficiency http://www.nature.com/gene/journal/vaop/nc...gene20116a.html SCID gene found in a 'genetically linked group of dogs'. (FCI name of genetically linked group of dogs' was withheld as I cannot find the breed recogized by ANKC and did not want to offend those who only want to talk about ANKC dogs. However, please see ANKC dog breed below that this disease has been documented in, so as to keep the post about SCID relevent to ANKC dog topics). Jack Russell and SCID http://jvdi.org/cgi/reprint/14/3/194.pdf This disease may be in many breeds of dogs, and could be the cause of fading puppy, still born pups or absorbed pups and may go undiagnosed.

http://www.terrierman.com/peta-2010-killdata-VA-shelter.pdf The 2010 PETA kill data for PETA's "shelter" in Norfolk, Virginia. The total kill rate in 2010 was 93.81%. PETA took in 1,553 cats and killed 1,507. Dogs, they took in 792 dogs and killed 693.

Not my intention to do myself any favours. My intention to get some breeders to understand where the majority of buyers are coming from, but it seems that just wont happen. Once again, I will not be calling this breeder, because I do not wish to give away a non-refundable deposit on a pup I have not seen, and has not even been born, so can people stop telling me to call them. Well then call her up and tell her you are not ready to commit to giving a deposit until they are born, or until you can pick one out or what ever it is you want to do, then ask her if she has any pups left over after the others with reservartions have picked their pups, that you would like to see them. Many breeders, espcially if they have a good reputation, will not have any pups not already spoken for once the litter is born.

Sorry should have made it clear, it is a joke, this is a comedy news TV show, not for real and nothing to worry about. I loved the neighor...LOL

Neighbor says 'I'd like to kill it." Onwer says "She's a super family pet". LOL

A New Wrinkle on Why Shar-Peis Suffer Fevers by Elisabeth Pain on 17 March 2011, 5:00 PM | Permanent Link | 0 Comments Email Print | More Previous Article Next Article Enlarge Image Hot finding. The same mutations that wrinkle Shar-Peis make them susceptible to fevers. Credit: ThinkstockA mutation responsible for the characteristically wrinkly skin of Shar-Peis may also make them sick, according to a new study. The finding could eventually help dog breeders produce healthier Shar-Peis and may offer a new explanation for why some people are plagued with periodic fever. Originally from China, Shar-Pei puppies have seduced the Western world with their wrinkles, encouraging breeders to select for dogs that would keep the trait as adults. (In the original breed, puppies lose most of their wrinkled skin as they grow.) Underlying the breed’s thick and extensive crinkles and furrows is the accumulation of a common skin component called hyaluronic acid (HA). Also characteristic of the breed is a disorder known as Familial Shar-Pei Fever (FSF), which causes apparently unprovoked yet recurrent episodes of fever and inflammation. Even though the canine disease has long been thought to be hereditary, a genetic cause remained to be found. In a study in which they compared the DNA of 24 Shar-Peis having FSF with 17 ones that don’t (not all of the breed suffers the fevers), an international team of researchers recently identified a region on chromosome 13 associated with increased susceptibility to the disease. In parallel, the same team, led by Kerstin Lindblad-Toh of Uppsala University in Sweden and the Broad Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts, screened the Shar-Pei genome for signs of what gives the breed its characteristic wrinkles. A comparison of 50 Shar-Peis with a control group of canines from 24 other breeds pointed toward a location, near a gene that codes for an HA-producing enzyme called HAS2, that overlapped with the FSF susceptibility region. Looking more closely at this area, the team then identified a mutation—duplications of a DNA segment—that was present in highly wrinkled Shar-Peis but not in control breeds. The researchers next looked at whether this same mutation was associated with FSF susceptibility, comparing 28 affected and 16 healthy Shar-Peis. A large number of the duplications appears to predispose animals to FSF, the team reports today in PLoS Genetics. Lindblad-Toh says she suspected that the genetic causes for the thickened skin and for the fever syndrome would be near each other but not that they “would be the same mutation.” Further studies on Shar-Pei skin cells by Lindblad-Toh’s team showed that the more times the duplicated DNA segment is repeated, the more HAS2 is produced. The findings are “really exciting news,” says Anna Simon of Radboud University Nijmegen Medical Centre in the Netherlands, a clinician-scientist who specializes in fevers. FSF resembles some of the hereditary periodic fever syndromes in humans, a group of rare autoinflammatory disorders whose most common form affects between 10,000 and 20,000 patients in the world, Simon estimates. Although mutations affecting inflammatory molecules have been identified in some cases of the syndromes, more than half remain unexplained. “Hyaluronic acid was outside of the scope” of fever researchers, in spite of its already-documented ability to stimulate the immune system, Simon says. It may now help explain some of the cases that had no known genetic cause, she suggests. As for Shar-Peis, the study offers a good example of “the unintended consequences of selective breeding,” says genome scientist Joshua Akey of the University of Washington, Seattle. While selecting for excessive wrinkling, breeders “were also selecting for Shar-Pei fever and increasing that in frequency. That’s probably generally true of a lot of traits that were selected for in dog breeding.” http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011...s-s.html?ref=hp

I agree! Of course, we are somewhat biased I agree with those that have stated that the "Labradoodle" cannot become "purebred" when there is so much variation in their coat, height, temprement, etc. I have only interacted with one for a long period of time, and he is a gangly galoot, for lack of a better term. At least 2 years old (maybe a bit older), and seemingly no sense- my 10 months old Labrador has better manners. However, in saying that, he has had little to no training AFAIK either. As I am sure others have mentioned already, the "Labradoodle" was a failed attempt at a hypoallergenic Guide Dog- now (imo), people have just been sucked into the DD phenomenom. Personally, I would rather have my Labrador who may shed, but that I can brush easily, than a "Labradoodle" who needs to be groomed regularly. Can I rephrase this a bit. You are saying that 1. Only meeting ANKC values of 'breed' can make a breed a breed in your opinion. Any breed not meeting ANKC values is not a breed. 2. To meet ANKC values a breed of dog must only carry one coat type. Except for the ANKC breeds that are allowed to have more than one coat type. 3. To meet ANKC values a breed of dog must only have one temperament type. Except for the ANKC breeds that are allowed to have more than one temperament type. (edited to add) 4. You have only known one labradoodle and it was an inferior dog in your assessment. Points well taken. Since we should try to limit my converstation to only ANKC topics, such as values, breeders and breeds. I would like to know how ANKC breeders or other folks feel about haplotypes and how haplotypes are or should be managed in ANKC and how this impacts ANKC dogs today and in the future. Can you ever see a time when a breed or a dog within a breed might be considered desirable or valued because they have a large number of haplotypes or haplotypes that are rare in the breed? Should ANKC breeders try to reduce, increase or maintain the number of haplotypes in their breed? Does any one know the number of haplotypes in their breed population right now? Is there any haplotype you would like to see changed, added or removed in your breed? Would you consider having your breed club help to pay for all or part the population to be tested to find this out, as this (is, is not, don't know??) important for ANKC breeders to know about and understand in your opinion?

I just did a pup a few weeks ago. I think they said up to 6 months? Anyway was one pup and I got the discount.

Rubbish. Just ignoring everything you said yesterday that was pointed out to be wrong? That's right, just plowing on ahead with more rubbish and hope no one notices the untruths. Wrong, we all noticed. There are 2 choices here. #1 You don't have a clue what you are talking about but are so sure you want to make everybody do it your way. OR #2 You know exactly what you are doing and are on a mission to hurt dogs owners. I go with the later. Not talking to you now as you will just ignore the truth and are on a mission to make things seem very different to the way they are. This is for those who do not understand about importing a pet dog to Australia. First off if a dog is dangerous in quarantine and hurts someone they already can and will take action against the dog. So if that was the intention of this law, then there is no point in this law as that already happens. The 'riddler' is full of it and only trying to cloud the issue with untruths. What they want is to add an additional cost of 3-5 hundred dollars to have a dog screened by a behaviorist as part of the application process prior to getting a permit to import. This will result in most people saying the cost is just too much and they will leave their dogs behind. There is still no evidence presented that any imported dogs has attacked anyone, never mind that there is some sort of a trend that imported dogs are dangerous, with out some measurable history why bring in a new law at great expense to pet owners for a problem that is not proven to even exist. Secondly it is not possible for anyone, and certainly not the government of Australia, to test or to assure that that testing of all dogs imported dogs or stud dogs of semen for all health problems. That is just impossible and just NUTS to even think it could or should be done! There is also no evidence that imported dogs with a health problem is harmful to Australia. How many of you own a dog with a health problem, should they be refused entry with you into Australian because they have an allergy, heart problem or a joint problem. Again the whole idea is just nuts. Australia already screens for infectious health problems which it the responsibility of the government. It is not the responsibility of the government to assure that no dogs with any health problem is allowed into Australian, nor it is their right to take your dog away from you because it has HD or some other non infectious health problem. Again 'Riddler 'is making a hidden riddle out this. Just twisting things around to make all imported dogs look bad, sick or a danger. The only possible goal of this sort of rhetoric is to promote the banning of importing of pet dogs and to prevent all people from being able to import their pets. Just hurtful, no other word for it. Further there is no way this so called screening out of all sick dogs can be managed, it would cost a fortune for the government to review all the screening. To do all this health testing would be thousands and thousands of dollars. The poster also knows this and also knows that very very few people could afford this on top of the existing cost of close to $10,000 to import your pet. Again it is just plain meanness and a desire to separate people from their pets that Riddler would sugest such an idea. Heaven help all dog owners, with people like you running around. Where is ANKC? Are they doing anything about this?

You're right Miranda, it is a mutt - but is there any problem with being forward thinking? Hashing out an issue which apparently plagues the pure bred world? It's not that Clyde, it's the constant little digs about the ANKC that get to me and the frequent references to the MDBA and its supposed superiority. I am certainly not saying that the ANKC is perfect, far from it, but I think we should be getting behind them and initiating change, not joining some other organisation that will, in time, be beset with exactly the same problems as the much maligned ANKC. I have ANKC dogs. I am not a member of MDBA and know little about what they are doing as a registry, however... Some kennel clubs around the world are changing to address the issues surrounding purebred dogs and some kennel clubs are not. Is MDBA one that is making some changes to the traditional way of doing things in Australia? I do not know but it would not bother me if they were, and I would want to know more about it. Is that bad for ANKC and should not be spoken about? Not to me it isn't. If you look at the northern European kennel clubs many of them are making some real changes, changes that if brought up on DOL are said to be making trouble for ANKC. These are world wide topics. So now we are to not suppose to talk about what other kennel clubs are doing that might be different to what ANKC does? Here is one for you, open stud books, open to the purebred working registries for the same breeds. Now lets make it personal, why is the ANKC stud book closed to WKC kelpies at time when the world is looking for the ANKC to be increasing it's gene pool and to make a real attempt to promote other dog breeding plans that are not show ring centered? There are kennel clubs in other countries that accept WKC dogs. They also have mandatory hip testing and open data banks of health test results, and lots of other things going on worth talking about. And BTW I would love to hear about MDBA or any other KC type registry and how they are addressing the issue of opening stud books to purebred working registered dogs. Is this topic a dig about ANKC and should not be spoken about?

How would you feel if instead of taking poodles to cross breed to make a different breed, if they only used poodles to create their new breed. Changing the standard away from what the breed has always been bred to, changing the breeding goals, they soon start to look different and you no longer recognize the traits you always knew in poodles. Even when DNA tested they are clearly not the poodles they started with anymore. Yet they still call them poodles and market them as poodles and call the old poodles inferiour, predeveloped or mongrels. And yes, every street you walk down there is one of these new poodles and they owners ask you if your real poodle is a cross breed. How would that be?

What kind of tests? Do you mean to try to ID them as Koolies or for diseases? If so which diseases?

Wrong again. Dogs can and do have chronic health problems and are not barred from entry into Australia. We are not that far gone down the path of big brother yet, but it seems you would like to think we are. It is only infectious disease that is screened for. If your dog has a heart problem, HD, allergies, it can come in. Hard for you to believe I am sure.

What sort of deallings with AQIS? I know a gal that has dealings with AQIS, her mission is to get the banning of all animals for export and import.

I have imported a fair number of dogs and never have they been quarantined prior to arriving in Australia. Which county quarantined your dog prior to it leaving for Australia? Answer to your question about people importing dogs, no people who import dogs don't give a crap what type of dog they import and look for agressive sick dogs, they want to spend S10,000 to get this type of dog into Australia. Are you for real? Now can we move on to some reality. BTW most of the dogs come over are with peopel when they move and are pets, (yes I am sure you think they are also sick and agressive pets) that they love. Now moving on in the real world. These temperament tests will be done prior to leaving by some kind of certified behavioral person or vet. The owner of the dog will have to hire and pay what I am guessing 400 to 600 hundred dollars to get this test done and the paper work written up. Then it will sent as part of the application process. Right now it coast about $10,000 AUD or more (not including the price of the dog if you are importing to try to improve the breed by bringing in needed new bloodlines) to import your pet dog from the easy countries like the UK. Your talking thousands more plus 5 months wait or boarding from the US Canada and part of Europe and who could guess how much from many other countries. How are you with affording this cost of importing a pet dog right now? Is it not enough, should it cost more? Can I ask how many imported dogs you have brought into Australia? Is there ever going to be a cost level that makes you just say that is enough, I will leave my pooch behind as I cannot afford to bring him with me? Can you tell us how much will just be too much as far as your pocket book goes? Are you sure that pushing people with financial burdens and a process what goes on for months of hassles and hoops to jump through, paper work, health tests, vet exams, inspections by government vets and so on to the point that they will leave their pets behind, is really going to stop dog attacts in Australia?

Right being on the left in this photo, that would be about right I would think. Not the best coverage and it might be if you bring that leg in line it would make that score worse. However if the neck is normal and there is no arthritis then I would not react too qucikly. Was the dog under?