shortstep

I think there is a lot of hatred in some groups of people about dogs. They really do see them as an animal that should not exist. They see them as man made so therefore intrinsically bad, dirty, meat eating food wasting carbon methane emitters, owned by people who just as bad as their dogs and very selfish to even consider owning one. They hate seeing dogs in public because they know it promtes others to want a dog. As the leader of the dog hater movement said, 'If you want a pet get a stuffed animal'. It is all the same rubbish. Fortunately they are still in the minority. However the press and media is the favorite home for many who strongly hold these sorts of beliefs. They do their best to use their position of power by being able to reach so many people with their words. They make it seem like they are reflecting the thoughts of the majority. I believe they think it is their duty in life to convert as many people as possible to their way of thinking 'to save the world'. Much the same as the religious zealots who went around the world forcing their beliefs on others in gods name. Just no god this time around, but the story is the same with armageddon (climate) just around the corner. Anyway good on Newcastle and I hope everone writes to the council and says how much they think this was the right thinkg to do and how important dogs are to peoples llives.

Most of our breeds only have a few original ancestor dogs. These dogs were inbreed back to each other or even one or two dogs, to set the traits in the breed. Then the stud books were closed and all dogs that came after that time were line bred (another word for inbreeding just not as close as say son to mother or brother to sister inbreeding) on these original inbred dogs as it is impossible to do otherwise within a closed stud book. It is also common practice for certain lines with in the breed to also be inbred again such as grandfather to grand daughter to fix traits again. This unavoidable inbreeding and intentional inbreeding is still a constant today in all breeds in closed stud books, though breeders can try to find dogs that are less closely related and by attempting to reduce COI. However this does not remove the already inherent inbreeding in any population in a closed stub book. Many of our breeds have had their stud books closed for many year and if the population of dogs in the breed is small or the dogs are isolated such as on an island, then inbreeding will be even more severe. Yes it is a case of keeping the lines pure at all costs. The Dalmatian being a good example of that, even with 15 generations having gone by of purebred dals and only one ancestor 15 generations ago that was used to gain a healthy gene, these health dogs are usually avoided by most breeders in favor of dogs that are 'pure' even though they will all carry the sick gene. What is interesting about this family is the lip/bottom jaw deformity which sort of made a visible marker of the inbreeding coming down the generations (in much the same way as a genetic deformity has often become the signature trait of a dog breed, such as wrinkled skin, cork screw tail, dwarfism or pug face. Reading what others are discussing about this family, one relative with the deformity married outside of the purebred line and their child did not have the deformity (must have been a simple recessive defect), this child again married outside of the purebred line and their children were again normal and so on until today. It appears that this is the only surviving relation to the original purebred inbred line. These survivors are what we call in dogs cross bred or perhaps the term outbred might be better. Though I would be pretty sure there is still selection by class going on, just not close family members. I seems that almost all of the royals' today are now practicing cross breeding or out breeding, but perhaps not so much with their dogs. LOL

Hum, I think it is this (see video below) sort of thinking that is pushing anyone who disagrees wiht it into the so called fringes of society. BTW I hope this fellow takes his own advice. Warning lots of bad launage and should be rated not for children. He's not going to run out of material any time soon though, is he? Only if you think that the world would be a much better place if humans did not exist (except for the intellectuals of course) and that we should feel very guilty for existing, hate our parents and grandparents for having us and we should never reproduce (except for the intellectuals of course) and that women are horrible creatures. All polished off with the concept that anyone who does not believe in this new religion is exactly the bad examples of humans they are talking about. With any luck it will be as self limiting as it proclaims. Hopefully they will follow their own advise and not breed. Leaving the world to those who treasure life to raise the next generation.

Hum, I think it is this (see video below) sort of thinking that is pushing anyone who disagrees with it into the so called fringes of society. BTW I hope this fellow takes his own advice. Warning lots of bad lanauge and should be rated not for children.

I was reading yesterday about the Australian Silky Terrier. Several web sites mentioned that they often tolerated well by folks with allergies or asthma. http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/commun...lky-terrier.asp

Do you have a reference for this? I couln't find any when checking out Greens policy on feral animals. The article says they prefer a single dog trained to flush the pig, then return so the hunter can take a safe shot. Greens have a very strong stance against the use of 1080. I have never flushed pigs with dogs nor seem it done, but I have been around pigs. I am not sure one dogs could flush a wild pig that did not want to go. I think to get an adult pig moving and not trying to fight back you would need at least a few dogs and I bet 5 is about right. Pigs are very big, can be very mean and not afraid to fight.

I think their demise was caused more by who they had sex with (inbreeding) rather than how much they were having sex.

I know no one is interested in this very interesting cultural divide happening in this breed but... I heard some more information about this, I think this is correct but it was all just told to me and not verified. A big part of the problem came to a head over PRA testing. DNA testing for PRA which is a simple recessive in this breed. The Kennel parent club which is governing the future of the tiny population of around 40 dogs a year born, decided that they would ban the breeding of carriers, yes ban them. Not allow them to be bred even to normal dogs. The 'show quality' population in very small, only a handfull of dogs and these are the only dogs that have not been sold on limited registration or desex contracts. So the only dogs available to bring the breed forward in the kennel club is the small number of dogs kept to be show dogs, out of this handfull of dogs 8 were carriers and were banned from breeding and had to be desex. (do understand there is not a genetic expert in the world that would approve of banning carriers of a simple recessive disease and certainly not in a breed that is so very small in numbers and so highly inbreed already and that is really on the edge of extinction). So we have the kennel club folks only breeding a litter to produce a show puppy for themslevs and to better the breed all other pups sold on desex contract, they believe only show quality dogs should be bred from. only producing a total of 46 dogs in a year and out of that it is estimated only about 9 were kept intact and out of that some have already been desexed as they turned out not show quality and so should not be bred. removed all carriers from the tiny population makeing it even more tiny ( at least 8 were removed). they are very concerned about any ideas of imported dogs being introduced as they may carry disease or might reduce the quality of their dogs Now the reason they are upset at the folks who are breeding the dogs for work is that they are health testing (though the kennel club folks say they are not), and they are going to breed carriers as recommend by genetic experts as they want to preserve as many dogs as possible to try to save the breed. they are not going to remove all dogs that are not show ring quality from breeding, instead they will be looking for soundness, temperament, working traits, fit for function, lower COI and so on. if they have to work outside of the kennel club to 'save' the breed then they will, however they are keeping pedigrees and have formed a registry. they already have a larger population of dogs to breed with then the total kennel club population of breedable dogs they are actively seeking out dogs from other countires with different pedigrees to increase the genetic diversity of their gene pool there club membership is booming Just wanted to add, there is another side issue to all this. Because there are so few KC pup offered for sale, and they cost around 1000 pounds (that is about $1555 AU) for a limited or desexed contract pup, people often end up buying cheaper or unregistered dogs, some of which are coming from Ireland puppy farms. I think this is going to be a very interesting test and I can see that the future of this breed may well hang in the balance. If I had to place bet, 25 years from now if the breed is saved at all, it will be the folks working on increasing the gene pool numbers and genetic diverstiy, breeding to fit for function and are encourageing new people to join them in their efforts. I looked at the OZ numbers for this breed when I posted the orginal topic and think that I saw about only 20 pups born a year were being born for this breed. I would be interesting to know what the plan is here in Australia to keep this breed going into the future. Are most being placed on limited registration? Are members desexing carriers of PRA? Are people who do not show encourage to breed?

I sugest we send the Greens in to flush out the pigs. I would even pay the government a ticket price to watch that.

Why do you say that? Because at the end of the day the colour means squat, I love the blue merle BCs, but if the right dog comes up, at the right time, and it happens to be a B&W...so what? I could get my pretty blue merle, and it could totally suck at agility, where as I could get a B&W who is from sporting lines and it might become a champion...I know there are no guarantees when it comes to breeding, but the right lines are at the top of my list Sorry did not see your post. Ok I understand now what you meant. I would just attend trails and when you see dogs you really like ask who bred them. This is how I pick out my new dogs. I often spend years studying a ling of dogs, I also tend to trust peoplle I know of that have a lot of experience breeding great dogs. Once I settle in on a breeder and their line/s, then I will express my interest up to 2 years in advance so I know I will get on the litters I am interested in. I think with performance dogs it is important to really study up on the dogs that the breeder is producing that are out there performing. Not just their own dogs, but the dogs they have bred and placed into homes like you. Some people are very good at training but not so good at breeding great litters. For performance dogs I think the old saying 'the proof is in the pudding' applies, spend the time to go see the pudding in the quality dogs out there from a breed with experince that you think would be right for you. Bottom line however should always be that you just fall in love with the dogs. Even the best laid plans do not always work out, so in the end you must also have a dog that you want to spend your life with, sports or no sports.

Working pups are all worth the same, it takes a long time to know which ones will train out to be good working dogs, you can not see that at 8 weeks or age. Value of working litters goes from a few hundred dollars for an Australian farm bred pup, to an average trail bred pup in the UK, ISDS reg and can be KC reg, with health testing at about 400-600 pounds, to pups with outstanding pedigrees usually of repeat breedings that were of very special quality who knows how much then can charge from the person who really wants one. When these same dogs are 2 years old, they could be worth nothing or all the way up to 20,000 pounds or even more. BTW No one is ashamed to make money or even earn a living on breeding or training sheepdogs. There is a real need for quality sheepdogs, these dogs are very much in demand and no one thinks badly of any person who is producing or training quality dogs for sale. People line up to buy them.

Oh too bad about the merle vote, why not dig up the records and get the merles thrown out. There is some genetic proof now you could use to prove these imported border collies are not the same dog as the ANKC bloodlines. BTW most of the merles in Australia that I have seen here are from Australian kennels and Australian bloodlines, crossed to one imported show type merle brought here long before 10 years ago. The merle (just one that had one litter) that was imported 10 years ago is not behind any of the merles flooding the markert, as they were all sold on limited and were not bred.

This is common sense that you pay more for the better pup, why you paying show class for a dud and why taking the dud when the same money buying a good one? This is silly concept I am thinking they all the same price becuase they costing the same to raise up from birth? In that case the duds should be the base price of raising up and better one's costing more is fair enough? Joe Joe, What is a better pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog that is worth more money to a pet buyer? What is a lessor pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog is worth less money to a pet buyer? This depends on what the pet buyer wants, yes, so they have a choice perhaps, but low qulaity pup cannot be same price as high quality pup and if the breeder say to me Joe, here is 3 puppies you can choose from a dud, an ok one and a beautiful example and they all the same price, I choosing the beautiful one is natural. If the dud is half price and I am wanting a pet maybe I pay less and be happy? Joe Maybe because there are other traits that are more important in the pet dog than a show ring quality appearence? If you show 2 pups to buyer and say This dog has the best temperament and will be perfect with your children, however would not win a dog show, and this pup would win a dog show but I am very concerned this pup would not be good with your children, both pups are the same price. The pet buyer would be a fool to take the pup that was not going to be good with their children and I do not care how good it looks. Show ring winning appearence I do not think would be ver high on the aveage pet shopers list, if they were educated about dogs in general, temperament, genetic heallth problems, structurural extremes and deformaties and so on.

This is common sense that you pay more for the better pup, why you paying show class for a dud and why taking the dud when the same money buying a good one? This is silly concept I am thinking they all the same price becuase they costing the same to raise up from birth? In that case the duds should be the base price of raising up and better one's costing more is fair enough? Joe Joe, What is a better pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog that is worth more money to a pet buyer? What is a lessor pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog is worth less money to a pet buyer?

I do not think there is much motivation to do this. You need to look at the bigger pciture. There are not near enough ANKC breeders or dogs or pups to meet the pet market needs, they would be short by what a couple of 100,000 puppies a year? There is no desire for 'ethical' breeders to bred for the pet market, they only breed to get a pup form them selves and to imporve the breed. There is no desire and in fact a lot of resistence, to any one to breed for any other reason than to breed for their next show dog and to better the breed. Also there is no desire for most breeders to place any of the left over pups from the litter with breeding rights. There is little encouragement for new breeders to get started unless the want to show dogs. I do not see any reason to change all this really, it has been this way for a very long time and has served it's purpose very well. The future of dog breeding for the pet public and those who want a dog for reason other showing, I believe, is already now mostly outside of the show culture and will continue to move in that direction. Over the next 20 years I think the current trends will continute with the declining numbers of show breeders and increasing numbers of breeders working towards other goals in their breeding programs. I think the quality of these other breeding programs will reach new heights in the coming years, incorporating the research and support of the Unis and ideas comeing from different points of view and will see increasing support for them from the more moderate animal welfare groups. However you will find interest in promoting dog shows and attempting to draw people into participating, you will also find that certain shows have been designed to welcome the public for view the dogs on show, so that might be of interest?

Why do you say that?

Merle never just pops up, one parent has to be a merle to get a merle pup. My adivise, if you want a dog to do with sports with, look for breeders who have lots of dogs out there doing well in sports. Then go to the sports trials you are interested in and find dogs you just love and then find out who bred them. Also go to the sport trials to look at dogs bred by breeders you are considering. Then once yu fall in love with a line of dogs, contact the breeder and make your sport interest known. Personally I would just look for the breeder who is breeding the type of dog you love and just take it from there adnnot worry too much about the colour. In dog sports, any colour dog is beautiful when it excells at the sport and it is your dog!

I nearly fell off the couch in shock when she told me that price. It makes me sad and mad at the same time. It is criminal! A border collie sold for $1800!! Maybe to solve the problem of 'some' breeders getting more $$ for their border collie pups than the 'ethical' border collie breeders get, the border collie club could ask the ANKC to make some price controls on border collies, each state set their won max price. Only breeders agreeing to sell their dogs at the 'ethical' controlled price can register their pups with ANKC. Opps forgot to say, very sad that a border collie pups (or any pup) was in a pet shop.

Complete line of PETA Gourmet products. Enjoy! http://www.galenacanning.com/index.php?categoryID=107

Well, when you see the same breeders regularly having puppies for sale, you know they are not showing so why would they keep breeding litters? It's certainly not to produce themselves a top dog, but their prices are way up there. I would say that if the puppies they are producing are healthy and well adjusted and the parents are being well looked after and have been health tested and not overbred then I truly don't have a problem with it. If you can make money doing something you enjoy and you are not harming anyone then whats the big deal? The big deal is the culture. 1. Only show people should breed. 2. Show people should only breed a very occsional litter, and wait here are the words that define the belief system...to only get their next show dog and to better the breed. 3. You should never ever ever admit to making any money at all, you only, wait here is comes...because you only breed to get your next show dog and to better the breed. 3. Anyone else breeding with any different reasons is scum, a BYB or a puppy mill. This is because, wait here it comes again..they are NOT breeding to get their next show dog so therefor not bettering the breed. 4. If this is carried out correctly, all other breeders will be pushed out of the breed and the breed will be driven to extinction by low numbers of dogs born and ever increasing inbreeding and high COI dogs who belong to show breeders who, wait here it comes....only ever bred a litter to get their next show dog and only to better the breed. You know there is a breed right now that geneticly is on the brink. COI is getting very high and only a very small number of dogs are being born each year, not enough to keep the breed going. So a group of people come along who want to breed these dogs for their orginal work, so they started a new club to promote this goal. the are registering witht he kennel club, doing health testing and only breeding dogs that are useful at the work. People like the idea and are lining up to buy pup. They are selling pups with breeding rights to promote increased numbers of litters/dogs. They are getting nothing but trouble from the 'establishment' in the breed, even untruthful accusations that they are puppy famers and not doing health tests. It seems like they would rather see the breed slip into extinction rather then welcome any breeders or breeding plans that are not about making show dogs. I was reading the endangered breed list just yesterday, so many breeds have already slip beyond the point of saving them without cross breeding, yet the breed clubs still think the only way to save the breed is to promote them at dogs shows. I am out for dinner and then ducking for cover. If you are referring to my post I am not saying that only show people should breed and I am not saying that non showing people should not breed either. I have nothing against the registered non showing people having the occasional litter,and I am definately not calling these non showing breeders scum or BYB or a puppy mill. Those are your words. I am not talking about you or anything you said or did not say. I am talking about a statement, an idea, a belief system, that I have heard over and over again. In fact if I had a dollar for every time I heard it, I would be rich! So not not about you or anyone else has said in this thread. ;>)

Well, when you see the same breeders regularly having puppies for sale, you know they are not showing so why would they keep breeding litters? It's certainly not to produce themselves a top dog, but their prices are way up there. I would say that if the puppies they are producing are healthy and well adjusted and the parents are being well looked after and have been health tested and not overbred then I truly don't have a problem with it. If you can make money doing something you enjoy and you are not harming anyone then whats the big deal? The big deal is the culture. 1. Only show people should breed. 2. Show people should only breed a very occsional litter, and wait here are the words that define the belief system...to only get their next show dog and to better the breed. 3. You should never ever ever admit to making any money at all, you only, wait here is comes...because you only breed to get your next show dog and to better the breed. 3. Anyone else breeding with any different reasons is scum, a BYB or a puppy mill. This is because, wait here it comes again..they are NOT breeding to get their next show dog so therefor not bettering the breed. 4. If this is carried out correctly, all other breeders will be pushed out of the breed and the breed will be driven to extinction by low numbers of dogs born, the vast majority of pups sold on on desex contracts and ever increasing inbreeding and high COI of the dogs who belong to show breeders who, wait here it comes....only ever bred a litter to get their next show dog and only to better the breed. You know there is a breed right now that geneticly is on the brink. COI is getting very high and only a very small number of dogs are being born each year, not enough to keep the breed going. So a group of people come along who want to breed these dogs for their orginal work, so they started a new club to promote this goal. the are registering with the kennel club, doing health testing and only breeding dogs that are useful at the work. People like the idea and are lining up to buy a pup. They are selling pups with breeding rights to promote increased numbers of litters/dogs. They are getting nothing but trouble from the 'establishment' in the breed, even untruthful accusations that they are puppy famers and not doing health tests. It seems like they would rather see the breed slip into extinction rather then welcome any breeders or breeding plans that are not about making show dogs. I was reading the endangered breed list just yesterday, so many breeds have already slip beyond the point of saving them without cross breeding, yet the breed clubs still think the only way to save the breed is to promote them at dogs shows. I am out for dinner and then ducking for cover.

I think you may be making some assumptions. 1. Not all buyers want or think a show bred pup is of greater value or even equal value to a pup bred for some other function or to some other ideal. For example, someone who want a dog for function such as stock work, racing, hunting or even family pet. They will want parents that are proven in that function and were selected for that function. More and more people are realizing this. 2. Just because a breeder is breeding show dogs, does not mean they are breeding dogs with excellent health histories or are even doing the health testing that the buyer wants to find. They may also be breeding for extreme physical features that the buyer wants to avoid. 3. Just because a dog would be a show ring winner in conformation, does not mean that it has the structure the buyer is looking for. For example dogs that do the work of that breed almost always have a different structure than dogs that are bred for the show ring. (read thread on spanning terriers as an example, if you want a hunting terrier than you will likely want a dog that will be perfect in structure for the breed to go down holes but will be too small in the chest to win in the show ring.) 4. Most people want a pet, they do not want a show dog. It is too bad the term 'pet quality' means the dog is less than perfect for function of a show dog. How strange to the public it must seem that a pet quality dog which will be their full time family member and a huge emotional investment, should be a lesser quality and a lesser valued dog. I can not tell you how bad I think the idea and term 'Pet Quality' is to the reputation of kennel club dog breeders right now. For goodness sakes, the primary buyer of show bred pups are pet homes, yet we label the only dog they can buy from the show breeder as a reject, a second. For a long time this has been the culture, dog show breeders keep the best dogs and their rejects are sold on to pet homes. I do not think this model will last too much longer, the public is starting to demand dogs bred for the function of pet. 5. Just because a breeder is not interested in nor wants to breed for 'show ring' it does not mean they are therefore only breeding to make money. Nor does someone who makes every breeding decision based only on increasing their chance of winning a ribbon at a dog show, mean that they are not breeding for money. Lets take it a step further, just because someone is only breeding to get themselves another dog for the show ring, does not mean they are breeding quality dogs nor dogs that would be suitable or an excellent choice for the pet buyer. Today breeders who place to pet home should be working very hard on producing healthy and well tempered, moderate dogs suitable and truly fit for the function they will be doing. If someone wants to breed show dogs, then by all means they should do so. But that in it's self does not mean their dogs are worth more or less than someone breeding for some other reason, nor does it mean their dogs are bred to be excllent pets. To the buyer, it should be, that the dogs has value because it was thoughtfuly and well bred for the function they have in mind. So yes, a breeder that is consistently producing well tempered, healthy, moderate examples of their breed, selected for and are in fact fit for the function as a family pet, should be given the highest value for their pups from buyers looking for a family pet.

With all the press I am sure that this matter has already be well addressed at the breed club.

I have no need to do that. Seems clear, if they want to do these things they will be doing them and I am sure many are. In todays world, we are often 'all' judged by the action of a few others, with the threat that we are all at risk of loosing our decision making ability. So what was not my concern a few years ago is now every bodies worry and concern. With that in mind, 24% affected and average score of 23 needs to be addressed with the most modern methods available, it is still my opinion. Like I said above, I am sure most breeders are doing that.

This might help, there is detailed information to each of the below diseases if you follow the link given. Genetically based disorders in the Toy and Miniature include: (Click on the name for more detailed information) find those links here http://www.napoleon.org.uk/health/poodlehealth.htm Progressive Retinal Atrophy a disorder of the eye in which the light cells in the retina wither and die due to insufficient blood supply. the disease progresses Gradually, results in blindness and has no known cure. Its onset in the Poodle is between 5 to 6 years old. The presence of PRA can be detected by ophthalmascopic examination by a veterinary ophthalmologist. Here is the infromation on the DNA test http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_pra_poodle.html Corneal Dystrophy - Corneal dystrophies" are diseases of the cornea that are bilateral, non-inflammatory and inherited. Legg-Calve'-Perthes - a disorder in which non-inflammatory a vascular necrosis of the femoral neck and head result in one of both of a young dog's rear legs becoming lame. Irritability and pain are other primary symptoms. Some dogs recover and function without treatment, but in severe case surgical removal of the femur head is indicated. Patella Sub-luxation - or slipped kneecap, a condition in which the patella slides in and out of the groove where it is normally held in place by ligaments. This causes hopping or favoring of the leg until the kneecap slips back into place. In some cases, in can be surgically corrected. Epilepsy - a neurological disorder marked by recurring seizures that follow episodic, abnormal discharges of electrical impulses by nerve cells in the brain. As in humans, it is controlled with drugs such as Phenobarbital or Dilantin. Hypothyroidism - a condition resulting from an inadequate production of thyroid hormone. Also treated with drug therapy, its symptoms include a coarse, brittle coat that falls out, thickening and discoloration of the skin, lethargy, obesity, mental slowness and irregular heart cycles. Cryptorchidism - or undescended testicle, a condition in which one or both testicles are retained in the abdominal cavity. Hormone injections, given to stimulate testicular descent, sometimes are successful. When the treatment is unsuccessful, removal of the testicles is recommended because cryptorchid testicles may become cancerous. Mitral Valve Disease - The heart consists of 4 chambers - 2 atria and 2 ventricles. The atrioventricular (AV) valves ensure that the blood flows from the atria to the ventricles when the heart beats. A defect in the mitral valve (the left atrioventricular valve) causes backflow of blood into the left atrium, or mitral regurgitation. Less commonly, a narrowing or stenosis of the valve can be identified. Because of the leaky valve, the heart is less efficient at pumping blood to the body. Autoimmune Hemolytic Anemia (AIHA) - A decrease in the number of red blood cells (RBC's) or the amount of hemoglobin, resulting in a decrease in the oxygen- carrying capacity of the blood.