shortstep

But really what is the point. There really is nothing I take my dogs to vet about that I would worry about ending up on some database. It might help pick up trends in our breeds that we might not see until much later, provided that information is given back to us. And as I said before it will only track MC numbers back to the dogs themselves, so my dogs may help prove that my breeds health status is not a welfare issue.

I wil ask my Vet about this. Last time I asked he was not on the system.

The microchip tracking will make that a non issue, if the MC numbers tracks back ot an ANKC dogs then it goes on that dogs record, in fact it stops ANKC dogs from being blamed for other non ANKC dogs problems. The way I am looking at it is, it will hopefully clear up a lot of unknown information. It can in fact prove that ANKC dogs are notsick dogs, and just like with the Chi discussion, it will prove if Chi are getting Dx with eye disease at the vets office or at a specialty vet. Then we can deal with the facts. From the EBV point of view I think it woudl be great to have several generations of vet visit data collected on the dogs in the pedigree and their offspring. I wonder if we the breeders will ever see that, more likely the dog wil just get a risk number or some such thing, leaving us to guess exactly what the problem was or was not.

LOL that is likely true but we only have ourselves to blame for this situation, in my opinion. Now as I understand it, the total disease tracking system is not near complete yet. All dogs will soon have to be microchiped ANKC will have to collect the MC number on every dog ad link it to the dogs registration number. Vets will send the information linked to the dogs MC number. Uni collects all the registration records with MC number and downloads the vet records directly on to each dogs uni record. So only a disease for the dog with the KC MC number will be recorded for that dog, making it every accurate as far as tracking the ANKC dogs (Dx could be suspect however). But the real way this will be used to is to track the disease to the direct dogs in matings. Since they also are tracking the registration numbers of each dog to the MC number, they then can also track every pup back to it's parents, thereby tracking and recording any diseases the pups those parents have and can also link it back to grandparents. Here is the basis and data for the EBV system. They also can directly track each disease to each breeder BTW. As you may remember I was very vocally oppose to this on this forum and elsewhere, but no action has been taken and they system is slowing being put into place. so now I have to live with it and will make the best of it. So we have known for several years at least this was coming. Now I will just now have to make the most of it. I really an not worried as I follow all my pups closely so know what is going on with them. If there were any surprises then I would want to know anyway so this would bring them to my attention. Now all I can do is hope it helps me to breed better dogs.

Firsly I do not know if Chi have no eye disease in Australia or not, I am working off of Toy dogs information that the chi is not eye tested in this country and she is not aware of any eye disease. However in the UK, US, Canada, Sweeden, Norway, Finland, they either highly recommend or mandate eye certs for Chi. That is all I know. I think breeders need to proactive espcially right now and yes they should be able to prove their dogs are not sick if they are being accused by 'these' decisions makers. I do a DNA test on my dogs that I know they are negative on, because Kennel club people are working that some people might cheat on their pedigrees, so I have to be treated like I cheat too and cannot have more than one generation of Normal by parentage DNA results. And who is pushing this song and dance? Not 'these' decsions makers.

In my breed all diseases it is accused of having it does have. We also as a breed have a very good history of testing for disease and doing research. both inside the kennel clubs and outside of the kennel clubs.

We should perhaps be clear that this is a list of both congenital and hereditary conditions complied by LIDA. Some of the conditions are listed as a result of a vet seeing a dog in their clinic that the owner says is that breed and reporting the condition for the database. There is no indication in this list which are genetic and which are congenital as a result of (for example) one reporting. I will give an example: The listing of Vaginal Hyperplasia for Pyrenean Mountain Dog was the result of a vet seeing a puppy of that breed with a mild case of this condition (which later corrected as the pup grew) and reporting it to the database. All you need to do is send your evidence that the disease listed is not present in your breed and they will remove it, I know this because I have done it. So basically, they just list diseases for a breed with no proof If what you said is true and they'll remove a disease from a breed list if you show evidence it isn't present then what are they using for proof it is present in the first place? If they are using data from vets and the owner is the one reporting breed then that is very scary because a lot of people report their crossbred is a purebred or it is from a farm or BYBer who doesn't care about health. Surely you can see why this data you are relying on is suspect. I'll say it again, you must have missed it, It was basically accurte for my breed, I am sorry if it is really misleading for your breed. It seems that any thing that was not accurate was corrected. I sugest if your breed has information you disagree with that you contact them directly and have it fixed. Also incase you thought that I sugested this system to the Uni, I had nothing to do with. But since they are now using it and most vets in the country will soon if not already be downloading in to it and it will be used in part fo EBV which could directly affect the choice of breeding pairs, and other issued concerning disease in pedigree dogs, I think it is is every breeders best interest to not just complain about it but work to make it accurate. But certainly others can have their own opinion on how best to deal with this database.

Well all I know is about a year ago, they had a disease listed for my breed that had been studied and was not in the breed, I sent the informaion and it was removed. I notice today, that they have also removed another disease that was found in a very limited number of dogs which I think was a good choice to remove it. Today I also notice it is missing one disease ( I am sure it was listed before) that is well known in the breed, which I will send them an email about now and ask them to add it. Other than that one missing disease, I think my breed looks just about right.

We should perhaps be clear that this is a list of both congenital and hereditary conditions complied by LIDA. Some of the conditions are listed as a result of a vet seeing a dog in their clinic that the owner says is that breed and reporting the condition for the database. There is no indication in this list which are genetic and which are congenital as a result of (for example) one reporting. I will give an example: The listing of Vaginal Hyperplasia for Pyrenean Mountain Dog was the result of a vet seeing a puppy of that breed with a mild case of this condition (which later corrected as the pup grew) and reporting it to the database. I also find it interesting that they specifically list X-Linked PRA for the breed when there is currently no genetic data available on PRA on the Pyrenean, with the exception of a genetic marker for CMR. so we don't even know if they are purebred and could infact have another breed in them only taking the word of the owner of the dog??????? if they were testing gene pools in registered chihuahuas with breeders i might be inclined to not question. looking up PRA the papillon can be affected with PRA as well as collies no mention of sheltie though, x-linked is only in the husky and bullmastiff. oh dear. Look if you are sure that your breed does not have this here is the link to check it again http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/dogs/search/disorder/256/Progressive%20Retinal%20Atrophy%20(PRA)%20(X-linked)] Then email them with your evidence and if you are right then they will remove it. How about glacoma, do Chi not get that either? There are several eye disorders listed for chi and in the US and the UK the parent clubs recommend eye certs yearly for breeding chi dogs. So they must think there is something there. what sort of evidence do you need to have? Me I do not require any evidence. I think you make a clear case that no evidence is needed as the breeders are not testing for PRA, Glacoma or Lens disorders as these diseases do not happen in chi in Australia. Please be sure to pass this on information to the Uni, as I know from personal experience they will remove a disease listed if you can show them othewise why it should not be listed. (I presented a breed club mulit year study of 7-9000 some odd dogs tested and no dogs were found with the disease). There will be lots of decisions in the future based at least in part on this uni list, so no point complaining about the list if you do not do your part to help to make it accurate.

We should perhaps be clear that this is a list of both congenital and hereditary conditions complied by LIDA. Some of the conditions are listed as a result of a vet seeing a dog in their clinic that the owner says is that breed and reporting the condition for the database. There is no indication in this list which are genetic and which are congenital as a result of (for example) one reporting. I will give an example: The listing of Vaginal Hyperplasia for Pyrenean Mountain Dog was the result of a vet seeing a puppy of that breed with a mild case of this condition (which later corrected as the pup grew) and reporting it to the database. I also find it interesting that they specifically list X-Linked PRA for the breed when there is currently no genetic data available on PRA on the Pyrenean, with the exception of a genetic marker for CMR. so we don't even know if they are purebred and could infact have another breed in them only taking the word of the owner of the dog??????? if they were testing gene pools in registered chihuahuas with breeders i might be inclined to not question. looking up PRA the papillon can be affected with PRA as well as collies no mention of sheltie though, x-linked is only in the husky and bullmastiff. oh dear. Look if you are sure that your breed does not have this here is the link to check it again http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/dogs/search/disorder/256/Progressive%20Retinal%20Atrophy%20(PRA)%20(X-linked)] Then email them with your evidence and if you are right then they will remove it. How about glacoma, do Chi not get that either? There are several eye disorders listed for chi and in the US and the UK the parent clubs recommend eye certs yearly for breeding chi dogs. So they must think there is something there. never seen that either here it could vary from country to country, the US club are also saying that SM is coming up in some of their show lines. Yes well it may be yet another case of a dog breed in Australia not haveing the diseaes normally found in the breed in the rest of the world. So breeders are not doing any eye exams/certs because the chi have no known eye diseases in Australia? Biot putting words in yor mouth, just trying to sort it all out.

Yes but you have to test them first to find out and why I asked if any breeders are testing their dogs eyes?

We should perhaps be clear that this is a list of both congenital and hereditary conditions complied by LIDA. Some of the conditions are listed as a result of a vet seeing a dog in their clinic that the owner says is that breed and reporting the condition for the database. There is no indication in this list which are genetic and which are congenital as a result of (for example) one reporting. I will give an example: The listing of Vaginal Hyperplasia for Pyrenean Mountain Dog was the result of a vet seeing a puppy of that breed with a mild case of this condition (which later corrected as the pup grew) and reporting it to the database. I also find it interesting that they specifically list X-Linked PRA for the breed when there is currently no genetic data available on PRA on the Pyrenean, with the exception of a genetic marker for CMR. so we don't even know if they are purebred and could infact have another breed in them only taking the word of the owner of the dog??????? if they were testing gene pools in registered chihuahuas with breeders i might be inclined to not question. looking up PRA the papillon can be affected with PRA as well as collies no mention of sheltie though, x-linked is only in the husky and bullmastiff. oh dear. Look if you are sure that your breed does not have this here is the link to check it again http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/dogs/search/disorder/256/Progressive%20Retinal%20Atrophy%20(PRA)%20(X-linked)] Then email them with your evidence and if you are right then they will remove it. How about glacoma, do Chi not get that either? There are several eye disorders listed for chi and in the US and the UK the parent clubs recommend eye certs yearly for breeding chi dogs. So they must think there is something there.

We should perhaps be clear that this is a list of both congenital and hereditary conditions complied by LIDA. Some of the conditions are listed as a result of a vet seeing a dog in their clinic that the owner says is that breed and reporting the condition for the database. There is no indication in this list which are genetic and which are congenital as a result of (for example) one reporting. I will give an example: The listing of Vaginal Hyperplasia for Pyrenean Mountain Dog was the result of a vet seeing a puppy of that breed with a mild case of this condition (which later corrected as the pup grew) and reporting it to the database. All you need to do is send your evidence that the disease listed is not present in your breed and they will remove it, I know this because I have done it. BTW congenital does not mean it is not also genetic. For example a cleft palalte is congenital and in breeds where is a common birth defect is thought to inherited (genetic). However it could be caused by chemials, drugs or other causes of disruption in developement which might explain a one off case where it is found a breed that is not known for this defect.

I have never heard of a connection between any of the PRA diseases and merle gene, ca you give me a refference for where you read that? Dachshounds and shetland sheepdogs do have PRA but not X linked, so it could not have come from them. 'other ones they listed, they are quite common not only in chis but in all toy breeds across the board' Sorry not following, are you sayin that all the rest of disease (22 of them)are common in chis and in all toys? So are they being tested/screened for, or just considered part of the toy breeds? Are most breeders at least doing a certified eye exam and Cardic exam by speicalist vets on al their breeding dogs? It seems like the only disease you are worried about is Patellas, but from looking at this list I would say it's severity impact level on the dog would not be that high as compared to many of these diesease, such as Hydrocephalus, Hepatic Encephalopathy, Portosystemic, Hypoplasia of dens or Myasthenia Gravis amoung others. At least PL can be repaired and the dogs can usualy live a normal life, most these others would be far more impacting on their lives and even fatal. chihuahuas were crossed with papillons, miniature pinschers, pomeranians and when the americans discovered them some of the first ones did also have other breeds in them like terriers for instance. i seem to be repeating myself. im saying that those diseases can also be shared amongst other breeds of dogs. I am referring to patellas as i said being in this breed for many years and seeing many examples of my breed - that this problem is the most common one. i've never heard of a chihuahua affected with PRA, as i say i just wonder where they got their test subjects from and what was the percentage of this disease that they found in chihuahuas. not to say that there are dogs that can and do suffer from all those other problems they listed. patella luxation is wide spread and very very common. so now go off and try and read me out of that quote too why don't you. i've said over and over again and i will repeat one more time for you. its hard enough to get breeders to test for the most common ailment which is Patella luxation so do you think they are testing for heart and eyes? given that they aren't testing for PL? our breed is relatively healthy otherthan for the patella luxation. its an oberservation on my part as i say seeing many examples over 25-26 years in the breed. so i spose you will get material from the net to prove me wrong on that one too. i'll wait for it.......... play on words, other breeds can be affected by those other problems too. common = patella luxation. im not saying there is a connection between merle and PRA. !!!! stop trying to herd me into a corner and prove me wrong SS, i don't really appreciate it. im off to vaccum my house thanks rather than sitting on here all day wasting my time. I am not trying to twist your words, infact I said I did not follow what you had meant, as asked for clarification. Not putting words in your mouth, it sounds like you said that eye and heart certs are not happening, so to clarify, Are you getting eye cert and heart cert your dogs before you breed them? Do you know of any chi breeders in Australia that eye and heart certs their breeding dogs?

I have never heard of a connection between any of the PRA diseases and merle gene, ca you give me a refference for where you read that? Dachshounds and shetland sheepdogs do have PRA but not X linked, so it could not have come from them. 'other ones they listed, they are quite common not only in chis but in all toy breeds across the board' Sorry not following, are you sayin that all the rest of disease (22 of them)are common in chis and in all toys? So are they being tested/screened for, or just considered part of the toy breeds? Are most breeders at least doing a certified eye exam and Cardic exam by speicalist vets on al their breeding dogs? It seems like the only disease you are worried about is Patellas, but from looking at this list I would say it's severity impact level on the dog would not be that high as compared to many of these diesease, such as Hydrocephalus, Hepatic Encephalopathy, Portosystemic, Hypoplasia of dens or Myasthenia Gravis amoung others. At least PL can be repaired and the dogs can usualy live a normal life, most these others would be far more impacting on their lives and even fatal.

which ones do this? im looking at it from my point of view. we can only test for the ones in breeds that we know that are there. atm there are no schemes going on for PL which is common in toy dogs mainly but can show up in other breeds we are finding out. im talking about diseases/genetic problems like that. im not really saying this, im not saying for judges to turn into vets. im saying if ANKC had a system whereby puppies in order to be registered had to have certain tests done and then recorded somewhere if clear or what scores for PL or HD or whatever, then the judges and other exhibitors and indeed the public can be assured we are all exhibiting healthy dogs. Then that could carry over to breeding it would help tremendously if everyone had the same info so they can make an informed choice as you have said in the past - good idea i can't really disupte that, i would think to myself that would be progress.. You are saying that you want the known diseases in each breed to be tested/screened for prior to allowing dogs to be registered, I assume only normal dogs can be registered. This would assure the public that only healthy dogs are registered or shown. I have taken the list of disease from the Uni of Sydney LIDA, for the Chi. http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/dogs/search/breed/44/Chihuahua 1. Factor VIII Deficiency 2. Haemophilia A 3. Mitral valve disease 4. Pulmonary stenosis 5. Hypoglycemia 6. Hypothyroidism 7. Hepatic Encephalopathy, Portosystemic. 8. Entropion 9. Cleft Palate 10. Hypoplasia of dens 11. Myasthenia Gravis 12. Osteochondritis dissecans 13. Osteochondrosis dissecans 14. Patellar Luxation 15. Shoulder Luxation 16. Ceroid Lipofuscinosis 17. Corneal Dystrophy 18. Glaucoma 19. Hydrocephalus 20. Iris Atrophy 21. Keratitis sicca 22. Keratoconjunctivitis sicca 23. Lens Luxation 24. Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) (X-linked) 25. Collapsed trachea Can you go down the list and tell us how each one is tested or screened for? and if it is a one time test or if it needs to be repeated with the age of the dog? For example, I seem to be reading that most Chi breed clubs recommend that the Cardiac and Eye certification exams be done more than once on breeding dogs for example. Anyway what I am thinking is maybe the 'all clear' on health testing would need to be issued more than one time in the dogs life. Not sure how you would handle this, maybe prior to registering any pups a certain list of tests would need to be repeated?

I only saw the show once and have no intention of looking at it again to check, but it did not strick me that they were expecting the judges to know that dog had SM. What I got out of it was that the breeder kept showing the dog and breeding the dog after she knew it was sick. I recently read it had several more litters after PDE was aired too. However I think judges do not take notice of health problems that they can see in the ring and will still award the dogs. Maybe everyone is so used to seeing it that they no longer think of it as a problem? Like this dogs eyes, who won it's class at Cruffs this year. hmmm doesn't look too good. you'd think after all this publicity with the KC in UK about what they are doing and not doing, they'd take a bit more care, this only adds to the debate. i can't look at that dogs eyes. Actually to be fair this is one the purpose bred 'new edition' post PDE and post the new breed standard dogs. It does have shorter ears, it does not have all the excessive skin hanging in folds down around it's knees, ankles and feet, it has slightly more air under it's belly. So really hats off to them for trying, but I still think that no dog should get any awards until they get rid of the extreme features.

I only saw the show once and have no intention of looking at it again to check, but it did not strick me that they were expecting the judges to know that dog had SM. What I got out of it was that the breeder kept showing the dog and breeding the dog after she knew it was sick. I recently read it had several more litters after PDE was aired too. However I think judges do not take notice of health problems that they can see in the ring and will still award the dogs. Maybe everyone is so used to seeing it that they no longer think of it as a problem? Like this dogs eyes, who won it's class at Cruffs this year.

I think it is an excellent subject, however as it relates to PDE 10 point plan for kennel clubs as was posted above.... Ask me it seems like a whole lot of effort. To save?? a system of dog breeding that may be coming to the end of it's use by date. It also is a system being used by very few dogs breeders in the world today, even most breeds are not being bred in this system any longer (we have all see the numbers, the decline is well documented in most countries). There also would appear to be little desire to make any changes in that system by it's members. You can offer endless examples of how to change but if there is no desire to change then it really is a wasted exercise. I really think it is way too much effort for the amount of effect that might be gained. However building a new organized system of dog breeding, one that would encompass most of the dog breeding going on today, including the established dog breeds, the working dogs, new dog breeds, cross or true mix breeds. This would be a really worth while effort, as the effect would be far reaching across the vast majority of dogs being bred and owned by the public. I think it will come down to this sort of across all dogs type of planning in the end, as any laws made will be directed at everyone and apply to all dogs being bred. To me good practice is good practice and all dogs and owners deserve that level of care. I would rather spend time building good practice sytems for all dogs. As to dogs shows, they are becoming a thing of the past and it is time to move on. I do not think anything needs to be done with them, the attendence numbers keeps droping and pretty soon they will just fade away. However the modern 'dogs shows' are the ever increasing list of dog activites, sports and events with dogs are booming!! They just don't seem to stop growing in attendence numbers!! They provide good exercise, companionship, socilization, training and handling skills and most important heaps of fun for both dogs and their owners. What better way to show off our breeds and dogs to the public! I think all efforts should be made to support and expand these types of dog events and they should be strongly supported not only by the breeders but also by the governments.

yeah? I can't be sure a little bit confused as to the direction of some of the posts Toy dog, go back to the first time I posted it. I posted 2 links, one for the Ad it was used on, for soap and the message was wash your hands otherwise you eat what is on your hands (like your pet dog). Hense the Pug X Whole Meal Loaf. The second was where I saw that pic that very morning and there is also says it is a photoshop job. I also put LOL at the end of what I said to indicate it was meant to be funny. I posted it as the prior post was about modifying dogs and I thought is was a perfect light hearted antidote.

I don't know what you guys on on about. Breeds are constantly being modified, as long as you can still make out the breed, what is the problem? Here is an example of modified breed I saw this morning.LOL http://www.ibelievei...y-handwash-dog/ http://terriermandot...7/pug-loaf.html Forget that, I would like you to respond to my previous posts regarding bringing in heritable diseases if stud books are opened. Why won't you respond to it? that image has been altered you can tell becuase the front forelegs disappear and you can see extra lines been added on its back as well. I've been mucking around with images and photos for about 15 years now. if that dog was to stand up because the forelegs are so close to the back legs it wouldn't be balanced at all no dog could ever be built like that. The face looks like its been ramped up as well to me. they've altered the image to advertise whatever they're advertising Toy dog- its a loaf of bread. ;) Actually it is a Designer Loaf...

Only if everyone keep on inbreeding on the same dogs. If popular sire was controlled and breeders avoided inbreeding and there was a constant flow of new blood, then there is no reason to assume that you would end up where we are now. At least that is how I understand it. But if everyone goes back to constant inbreeding, allowing popular sires to inflitrate the whole stud book in no time and as you say select for the wrong reasons, then yes nothing will be achieved. Read the rules again, it says 'only if they are used' which I saw that as sort of a warning. Agree with you about selection for extremes, but that is a seperate issue which I understand is going to be delt with in other ways. Even inbreeding I think will be delt with differently as we are already seeing with KC inbreeding restrictions and maybe goverenment laws. I think we will see a lot of new rules if not laws, and if these rules/laws are going to be put into place, then they have to have systems set up first which will allow breeders the ability to function within the new rules/laws. Right? So, as I said before, I see opening the stud book as not being done as a fix for any certain issues in any breed. (though certainly if the breeders wanted to it could be used for that). I think it was done to put into place the tools needed to allow those who want (or will want) to use them to breed dogs differently.

Are you sure? There is a Fat gene in humans and I am sure I have it! LOL http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article1647517.ece and in mice http://www.hhmi.org/genesweshare/d130.html

I don't know what you guys on on about. Breeds are constantly being modified, as long as you can still make out the breed, what is the problem? Here is an example of modified breed I saw this morning.LOL http://www.ibelieveinadv.com/2009/06/lifebuoy-handwash-dog/ http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2011/07/pug-loaf.html

Ask The Kennel Club not me.