bedazzledx2

Just a question Huski, why are you giving her a verbal cue to touch? If you're shaping the retrieve the verbal cue usually goes on last after the entire exercise has been taught, otherwise you are just teaching her to touch the dumbell like a target and not flowing forward into the next step into the chain.

Thank you

Bugga! didn't work....can someone tell me how to post a photo please? The help section of DOL is not very helpful for this

Could't help myself This is my brother's cat recuperating from a shoulder injury. Crates are usefull things to have file:///C:/Users/Owner/Desktop/Phoenix.jpg

Nah its always a work in progress Ness!

Because if things go wrong you haven't screwed up an association with your trialling articles. Its a scent game and teaches both of you scent discrimination without the stress of the real thing.

Thats a good start Ness but you need to progress so that you can put out 15 different found articles and she can do a full UD scent with them. Of course you need to build slowly and keep her successful in each stage. Give it a go

What she is doing is pretty normal at this early stage of training. I would start scent training with non-trialling articles anyway. That way if stuff goes wrong you wont be loading your trialling articles with associated problems. I have a collection of found objects....a peice of PVC pipe or joiners, large plastic clothes pegs, sticks from the garden, spoons etc. anything that is not going to cause injury and she can physically retrieve. If she wont retreive different items then you know what you need to work on first

Ammonia smells like urine and can cause the dog to continue to pee on that spot. Its the high levels of nitrates in both.

I will first preface this by saying I don't have any experience with the Pet Loo, however, I have seen them in the shops and wondered just how successful they would be with a dog. You would have to be incredibly consistent with your training and that's where I think things have gone wrong. It sounds like Max has the run of the courtyard but doesn't know a place to eliminate. He is simply not educated properly to do so and it has NOTHING to do with claiming territory!!!! Reverting to eliminating in the house means he isn't toilet trained and everytime he does it get a rolled up newspaper and whack yourself over the head!!!!! Sorry but it not his fault. I would take my training back to baby puppy. Pretend he is a puppy and doesn't know anything. Because he has free access to the courtyard and has done for so long you are up against it in re-training, sorry. I guess he is there when there is nobody home? If you can bring yourself to crate him inside when he's not supervised it would make your job much, much easier. You can get large C Crates with no floor which are ideal for this and they fold up out of the way easily for when he is trained. Can you take the top bit off the Pet Loo and just use that? If you can that would be good and you can put it down where you want him to go. If not then for the moment put it away and decide on an area in the courtyard you can live with him going. What you want to train is for Max to go to a place to eliminate. Have him inside free with you when you can supervise him. After he's eaten, put him on lead and take him to his spot. Give a toileting word without too much fuss...he won't have a clue what it means initially but that will change. He is on lead so can't go anywhere else. If he does go then quietly calmly praise him giving the toileting word. Mine is good boy, busy dog, good boy, busy dog all said in a gentle monotone. Bring him back inside and let him free for a while but still supervise. Same thing after a sleep, play, food, time. BE CONSISTENT! Rinse and repeat. If he doesn't go then say nothing, bring him inside and try again in a short while. Your job is to prevent him accidentally going inside and to give him every opportunity to go outside in his spot. If he makes a mistake, say nothing, put him on lead and take him to his spot. Clean up using a non-ammonia product. Another cue that I find useful is to ask the dog if they want to go outside as I'm taking them out. Eventually this morphs into the dog going to the door when he wants to go. Good luck

Ha ha No I haven't...will have to look out for it

Thanks Corvus BTW, perch work, (never heard of it being called the elephant trick but its a great description ) and right leg/left leg doodling are not mutually exclusive....in fact they complement each other. Perch work (front feet on a small platform such as a telephone book or block of wood) teaches the dog how to maintain position through turns and back end awarness. What a great post. I was going to teach Erik to hip target using the elephant trick, but that sounds a lot simpler and more sensible!

I reckon teaching back at heel is easier than in front If you look at the origins of Heelwork to Music and Freestyle its just doodling so the dog understands perfect heel position. Remember - dog moves with the left leg...soooo...if you are stationary and you move your left leg back and say heel the dog should move one step backwards. Again if you are stationary, (and the dog really understands left leg, right leg), and you only move your left leg forward, then he should come with your left leg movement. Once he understands this basic lesson you can increase the number of steps slowly and also teach going sideways the same way. Use a physical barrier in the beginning stages to keep him straight. This can be a really fun way of tidying up heelwork and teaching absolute position. Click treat works really well for this exercise. A good one for teaching indoors when its too hot to do anything else....have fun

I shaped the retrieve by back chaining. Throwing (and cueing it) was the last thing in the chain. As he already has experience with holding and fetching you can miss lots of steps and go to dumbbell on the ground - he picks it up...you click treat. You can find all the steps here http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html

quick question to those who are advocating this training. What level ANKC Title obedience trialling class are you currently competing in? ie CCD, CD, CDX, UD or UDX? What is the highest level you have atained with any dog? And yet there are people on this forum who have used prey drive training successfully, without running into the problems you seem to think will occur. Do you think if someone is using their dog's drive successfully, that they must be using play drive, not prey drive? How many dogs have you seen in real life working properly in prey drive with their handlers? It's far from anti-social. Many dogs who have a history of reward with chasing live animals don't want much to do with a tug, especially when chasing that animal. Yet, ask experienced trainers like K9 Force and Erny etc and I bet they will be able to tell you of many clients who have been able to take these dogs and train them to see a tug as more rewarding, by utilising the dog's prey drive. I've seen Daisy's eyes get that glazed over look when she's hurridly gorged herself on food she'd grabbed, she's in drive peak which is why you can't pull your dogs back out of it. Drive training takes that energy and drive by taking it and putting in control so you CAN utilise it. It's the reason why people who've trained their dogs in prey drive can tell them to down or recall them when they are chasing live prey and have the dog respond instantly. There are so many people who've trained so many dogs successfully with prey drive, or play or food drive, that I actually find your current line of thought quite bizarre, and kind of insulting. Should we disregard the real experience of those who've had so much success with these methods? Whose dogs are certainly not damaged, or ruined by the training in any way? Abandon methods that work so well for so many dogs because you don't think we know enough about it? Despite your claim that your objection to drive training isn't about damaging the dog, your posts are suggesting otherwise. To be honest Corvus I don't understand how you can draw the conclusions you have when you've never done drive training and have little or no real experience with it.

Have a look at this site. Lots of good stuff here. http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/Lesson6.html I'd love to know more about this method you train, as I want to use my "training break" to teach a more reliable informal recall.... but I guess it might have to wait for another time, so I don't hijack this thread

Perhaps you should suggest she Google Susan Garrett's Crate Games Great training DVD and well worth having. ;)

Thanks for the explanation Erny. A bit like the Recall I train....no thought involved, just turn on a dime and come! "And when anyone suggests they'd like to learn about training in drive, as the OP has, I sure as eggs won't stand in her way." No Argument from me

Does it matter what 'drive' your dog is in? Serious question here no flames intended. I personally don't care what drive my dog is in when training so long as he's engaged in the training game. I use lots of motivational methods including his dinner in small containers hidden on the training ground, treats from me, throwing food, toys, tuggies, a physical full on physical game and sometimes doggy zen. If I can't engage my dog then there is something wrong with either me or him and I would abort training that session and try to fix the underlying problem. Your train of thought puzzles me. . Can you explain further what you mean? Nothing wrong with using prey drive to achieve the training reliability that you're after. Don't know why you're so vehemently against it. Many behaviour problems have been overcome with the use of the instinct that is there. What experiences (depth and breadth) have you had with using prey drive in training that would have you anti to using it? He does. I think it is on his website. Apart from formal ones, I'd suggest that a very long and broad base of experience would count as a qualification as well. Why do you ask?

He's seriously cute How old is he?

Not especially Ness....just an observation that we don't always have food or toys to hand and need to be able to reward in a way that's meaningful to the dog. Especially useful for between exercises in the trial ring when you can't have food or toys on you. It doesn't just happen though and needs to be trained. Sorry for dragging this even more off topic

So if you took her to a park/trial ground and wanted to train/trial and didn't have food or toys with you.....? Don't get me wrong, I am big on food and motivational training but there have to be other ways to engage your dog. Can you transfer the rewards to a physical game? I am no expert, but you still use the dog's primary drive (food/prey) to get them there and working. Sometime I'll throw Daisy a treat and she'll cough it back up and leave it on the ground, because she finds working in drive part of the reward, it's not just about the food. I would either work my dog in food or prey drive, without the food or prey item, what is there to release them to or help build drive with? Whilst the dogs get a chemical reward rewarding them in their primary drive (food/prey) is still important.

Ptolomy I know exactly where your coming from Although it would be very difficult for the onlooker to see the difference. I know we have both come out of the ring and said that was not his best round but we got through it and yet onlookers have not seen any errors. Its all relative isn't it Thanks for the explanation Huski Now I will throw something at you - yes we all want out dogs working in drive BUT when my dog isn't pushing he is in a much better heel position, is neater in all his exercises, his presents are spot on and always gets a higher score and yet to me I hate it I think Bedazzled can relate...... So which would everybody rather - a dog that is zupped up to the max and is super fun to work, but who you know you are going to get a lower score with, or the accurate less zupped up one?????

Sorry to be a bit dense. Huski you mentioned 'in drive training'? Is this relating to a particular training program? I would have thought that all training is in drive. I certainly wouldn't be trying to engage a disinterested dog in any type of learning activity so I just a bit confused by the terminology I agree I would only release to a toy or food.

Mix it up and keep her guessing Sometimes reward her from you (either toy, food or play) and sometimes use the distracter. Whatever you do make sure you give a clear marker and release to the distractor. When I throw food or toy I always say in an exited tone 'get it, get it, get it' which gives him clear permission and drive to the toy or food.