bedazzledx2

Try living in WA There was : Steve Austin Brenda Aloff Both over at Kepala. Admittedly, you organised both of those . There's been Cesar Milan (although I wouldn't class that as a workshop) - that was in Melbourne . There was Uta's previous visit over this side of town, last year. Hey!!! That counts up as more visits over YOUR way !!! LOL Your turn to come on over :rolleyes: .

I trained heel without a lead, compulsion, or correction. Then I proofed it without corrections. You correct a dog for disobeying a command that has been previously learned that the dog knows. The stress of correction is the consequence of disobeying a leaned command. The positive reward is the pleasantness of obeying. It's not about yanking the dog around by the throat, it's about teaching the dog a command and teaching what is required from the command. Simple example the casual heel: You start of and command heel and praise the dog for being in the right place. The dog surges ahead.......aghhh.......a couple of leash pops and "heel" then praise the dog for returning to the correct position etc etc. When the dog has learned in bullet proof fashion to heel without distractions off leash.........the dog knows the command. Add some distractions like another dog approaching. Heel......the dog is in position and praised, then he see's the dog approaching and surges ahead, aghhh heel and he pulls to the end of the leash ignoring the heel command and a leash correction is admistered for ignoring the heal command. The correction is not the response for surging towards the other dog, the correction is for ignoring a known command which the dog has the choice of compliance or not. The dog learns that ignoring commands results in unpleasantness and complying with commands results in positive reward. The dog in this instance has learned right from wrong and the consequences of each chosen action.

I guess it depends on what you call correction and we have already been down this nebulous path! Positive is not permissive to quote Susan Garrett. My view is that if my dog doesn't do what I ask then I've failed in my training and need to take a step back and have a think about it. Having really good fundamental positive training means that is all I have to do. Normal dogs trained well are not defiant or disobedient, they they are opportunists and will always do what is rewarded. I didn't get my boy until he was 10 months old but fortunately he had been well socialized and had no vices so was essentially a blank slate for training. I practice positive proofing where the dog is set up to succeed and is an oportunity for him to earn more rewards not for me to correct. thats great to hear and my question is - you have never used a correction? I also trained some of my dogs with a clicker and I cant see how the clicker wont go hand in had with a argh argh or a leash correction from time to time. Especially in the proofing stage.

A bit like walk in averies? Good "Airlock system" I think is the name I was trying to think of.

Sorry persephone...missed that bit Stoooopid council Glad your girl is OK. How long have they been door dashing?

Another thought is the principles of crate games DVD by Susan Garrett could be of value to you.

My first advice would be for you to procure some form of fencing to prevent the dogs going onto the street. I realize it's sometimes not practical particularly if you're renting but even some temporary fencing would be better than nothing. You can and should put a training regime in place but until its perfectly trained you have to manage them so they don't get to practice door dashing. That means having them on lead while you open the door and train them to sit and stay before being released. This site may be able to help http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2409.

Yikes That sounds like a recipe for disaster IMO No way would I risk my dog. Can you maybe ask if someone can take take him with them on a flight? Much safer I would think.

Great site Thanks for posting that Kelpiechick

Yep perfect example of the remote reward Seita :D That's what we do as well. Sometimes the car and gear is parked a fair way from the ring so rewards are really remote!!! I think the reason is to engage the dog with the handler which involves pack drive as well as prey drive reward, it teaches the dog that the handler controls the reward and that all good things come from the handler. I throw my toys and things to the side now but not as a reward I throw them as a distraction so she learns to still look at me to get the release word to go get it and bring it back to me for the worlds greatest game (in her eyes). Just another thought on the remote reward thingy which I forgot to mention before. I leave my drive reward with my chair/crate etc so it doesn't go anywhere near the rings, my dog knows it's there and the moment I leave the ring we run to it and have a big game of tug as a reward. Everytime I trigger her into drive in the ring (my working command) she knows she's going to get paid, and after every exercise when I say "yes" she is reminded that she is going to get paid. In some of my videos you can see Ella head to the edge of the ring in search of her reward because she's heard me say yes and she knows she'll get paid soon but she is anticipating it in those situations cos her 'pay day' reward is ok!!

Yeah Huski....got that! For the record I have been in the obedience ring for over 16 years with multiple dogs attaining UD and O Ch, HIT, Royal, State and National wins under my belt and a couple of 200 scores. I do know about remote rewards and duration Each dog is different and both me and my dog like to play between exercises and it keeps him up for the duration of the 8 exercises in UD. Back chaining has meant that he is also rewarded by the anticipation of getting to do the next exercise. You may find you will need some type of motivation other than food when you get into the ring and previously you said you would be leaving food outside the ring as her reward . The point is that you need to train this part of the training game before you run into problems in the ring. Perhaps you won't need to and that will be terrific and I wish you the best of luck. If you are training with food of course you need to make it rewarding and exciting for your dog not simply exchanging food....that's what we call 'posting a letter' In your post with the video you said that Daisy was in food drive. As I saw it she was working a very short exercise in anticipation of her dinner and that was the precedent for happy work. Not many dogs wouldn't offer you something you had trained for their dinner! My BC is long retired but will still go though his repertoire for his dinner :D Thus far I have seen various images/videos of dogs (my own included) in various states of arousal but prey drive? Bedazzled, I'm not sure we can put food or toys right outside the ring here either. All the dogs I know who train in drive with remote rewards at trials do so with the reward quite a distance away. It's all in how you train it Drive is maintained in the ring and in between exercises, because that is how you train it. You can see in Seita's trialling videos that Ella maintains that same focus and drive in between exercises without Seita having to do much with her. Food is a drive, and you can see the difference between a dog in food drive and a dog who is simply working for food exchange.

Nice work Seita She is engaged and happy and willing to play with you. Lovely I don't see any particular 'drive' being displayed other than play training or food reward in any of the videos on this thread so far. There are some examples of dogs working and training on my youtube site but they were mainly put there to show distraction training. I wouldn't call any of these dogs in a particular drive....that's just the way we train. Whatever turns your dog on is used as a motivator/reward but training goes way beyond that. My dog is very very food motivated but of course you can't take food into the ring (nor can you leave it outside close to the ring here...against the rules) so I've had to transfer the food reward to a play reward without a toy. In other words a one on one game with me. I'll video that soon and put it up.

What level is Ella competing in now Dogdude? Do you have any videos?...would love to see some trialling videos. I ended up having a few entire rounds videoed including the between exercises as I believe that bit is really important. Makes for a long video clip though Brooklyn is hugely motivated by food but I use play as well and at the recent State and National trials he was in the ring 7 times and didn't lose drive or focus at all....just got better and better I think it does depend on a number of factors including training and what turns your particular dog on.

I've heard from farmers that BC's with a lot of white around the eye and therefore no pigment to protect it are at risk of skin cancers. Bear in mind though that these dogs are primarily outside dogs that have a greater exposure to the sun than most pet dogs. She should be fine with good management and at least you are now aware so you can prevent problems. Glad to hear the eye is not damaged.

Interesting Dogdude. I think that's true of all the ANKC State bodies regarding Schutz. Unless the training is either cruel or illegal why should it matter? Can you explain the training in prey drive please?

Lucky Banjo! Gourmet training :D Good to take it out on the road and then go to different parks.

This where I think there is some misunderstanding. How do you know that my dog is not getting an adrenaline fix when he is engaged with me? Anybody can wind up a dog....thats a given. My interest is competition obedience. Therefore I am need to take what I have trained into the ring where I only have a few re-inforcers at hand (primarily me!!!) so I think its a bit more instructional to go to the next step and see the results translated into trialling in drive. BTW I think I do train in drive....I just don't use the jargon IMO, it's not as simple as judging if the dog is engaged/interested in training. I've seen dogs (including my own) interested in or engaged in training who aren't working in drive. Drive is an adrenalin fuelled behaviour and involves the dog going through a drive motor pattern, which gives them a chemical reward (an endorphin flow). In fact sometimes when I teach things to Daisy I intentionally do so out of drive, and whilst she's still interested and engaged in the training, she's not giving me the total focus and energy she gives when she's working in drive. Obviously we all have our own perspectives on it, and to you it might be about her level of interest. IMO though, a dog working in drive and a dog being engaged in training are not necessarily the same thing.

...and then you can blame us :D

From reading the recent threads I think the term 'drive' is a bit misunderstood and has become the catch all word for a dog that is engaged in the training game. I think its a good thing that people are realising that you can't effectively train a dog that isn't engaged with you but personally I couldn't care less what 'drive' my dog is in so long as he is engaged with me and is into the game. Even for stationary type exercises I won't attempt to train a disinterested dog.

Looks like a really good bag :D Have you decided on prices? Looks like it could be adapted to hold obedience jumps and posts in there.

Brooklyn was trialling from around 2 but it wasn't until he was four that he matured and, like Scooter, became reliable enough to take over East to compete. I reckon between 4 and 6 are magical years Its interesting that you say this Tiggy. Scoota improved a heap when he turned 4 - its like he matured and things that he had stuggled with in the past became so much easier for him to deal with. It was at this point that I decided that he was ready to take east - up until then he was Mr Inconsistency Beans is now 4 and I keep telling her ......Hmm Tiggy did the book say 4 physically or mentally????? The books says this - For the larger breeds, especially the slow-maturing males, four is the age when they become dogs. They're puppies for about a year. As one year olds, they're like toddlers. Sometime around two, they become juveniles. Then for two years, they're going through a sort of protracted late adolescence. At four, they blossom. Banjo was a slow maturing dog physically, it was around two when he lost that puppy look. Mentally he's probably still a juvenile .

I am a clicker trainer and click does not go well with compulsion (click and clunk...ugly!!!) I use luring, shaping, playing, Premack and management as my main training tools. All my training from Novice to O Ch Obedience level and Masters Agility/Jumping level has been done off lead and with no compulsion. All training has been proofed at all stages under very high distraction. I have fit active dogs with a healthy chase instinct! I have successfully called them off roos, monitor lizards, bandicoots, cats, birds whatever. I never put them in that position before I had trained or proofed it though. I like to set my dogs up for success so they can earn a reward and distractions then come to mean more rewards coming...better watch Mum :D

This thread seems to have drifted into justifying the use of positive punishment to eliminate established unwanted behaviours that are not acceptable in our human society. The original question was it it possible to train a dog under high distraction without compulsion....not re=train. In my opinion Yes it is possible to train a normal, sane dog without compulsion.

Well done Jess One tip for remembering right and left turns is left is always into your dog...right then takes care of itself Easy when you know how! Thanks again :D We did our Novice run through tonight, I have a few things I need to work on but I was rapt with her heeling given that's what we've struggled so much with. We went all the way through, no food reward until the end. She was not 100% switched on for the first 10 to 15 seconds of her heeling but from then on she was fine. Turns were all fast and drivey, which is the first thing she loses if she's starting to switch off so that was great. At point we ended up doing figure of 8 over the top of her reward and she did a great job of staying focussed. I need to work on my straight lines (recall, change of positions and stand for exam all crooked!) and be careful with my hands as I moved them several times during the recall. Seems I've also lost my formerly automatic left and right foot work for leaving and stopping, and some work on which way is left and right might be handy too! ;) Looks like Darcy gets the week off obedience for good behaviour and I get to go back to obedience basics 101 bootcamp. Anyone have any ideas for getting this stuff down so it's automatic - no-one really local who can help me and it's a 2.5 hour round trip to class on Thursday so any assistance for doing it alone would be great. ;)

working fine here...maybe your connection Ness Very nice work from the lovely Cider....a star of the future