bedazzledx2

Well that's the ideal. You dont exactly put a correction collar on a dog and yank on it everytime the dog does something wrong! You first teach the command and then once the dog is solid you can begin to introduce the correction. If the dog is solid why would you need to correct? Exactly. You are not 'teaching' the dog through corrections alone, it's part of a whole. If you're doing it right then idealy your praise and re-enforcement should out-weigh the corrections big time. Because a prong collar can be a very useful training tool when used correctly And as far as I'm aware they are legal in all states apart from Victoria. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that though) I don't know anywhere in WA you could buy a prong collar. You couldn't train on Canine grounds with one. If its not technically illegal it is unavailable. Every one of these threads seems to turn into a slinging match between prongs and haltis when the point of the whole thing should be to discuss llw and how it can be trained. It shouldn't be about 'this tool is bad' or 'that method is crap'. Seriously, come on. Bagging someone elses method or tool doesn't help here at all. But no-one seems to want to teach llw. I don't consider correcting to be any sort of teaching method. I have given a small example of how I would start as has Aiden. Why jump in with a correction? Another thing I dont understand - and this is a genuine question, I'm not having a dig - but why would a dog who was fully obedience trained and reliable off leash need to wear a head collar? Actually I don't use a head collar. I have taught llw to the degree I want it. Like a harness it can be used when you don't want precise heelwork which is very different to llw. There are times, strange as it sounds, when I want my dog to pull! Building a restrained recall for example, but thats a different matter!

2 things come to mind.... Starting a pup...how easy is that? Re-training a chronic puller.....management and training. I had a lady in my class recently who insisted her staffy was a chronic puller and the only way she could stop it was to correct.... The dog had become so immune to a collar correction that it didn't even register. I took the dog for a bit and it pulled towards the owner as I knew it would. I stopped and waited and the dog released slightly and looked at me....click treat. Set up again....pull...stop....look...click treat. Set up again....hesitation....click treat. Set up again....total focus...click treat. Okay I know that's not yet a trained behaviour but its the start. I hate the way that every single time on this list that the question comes up about a dog pulling on lead you can bet that someone will suggest a prong collar. Grrrr!!!!! Apart from the fact that they are illegal in this state and pretty much only available on the internet....why don't people suggest teaching the poor dog rather than correcting? Bedazzled what method do you use now to teach LLW? What method would you use to teach a dog who had a very serious ingrained pulling habit? I'm not saying I agree with Black Bronson, but I would never write corrections off altogether... on their own they may be a crappy teaching tool but as part of a whole method I don't think corrections are always a bad thing Even methods like 'be a tree' and the change of direction technique that are commonly use to train LLW are corrective in some way.

night night Ptolomy The pink bubbles have gone down a treat, and a treat again and again and I raised a glass to Blaize (RIP)! Not sure if I will pass my next test - getting up at 5.22am when the alarm goes off. Have just remember that I am on call tonight - now sweating and praying that nothing goes wrong Thanks everybody for all your support - I am one very happy little vegemite

I used to use a halti on my Kelpie (she was obedience trained and had her UD title) It was not a training device...it was management. I am a better trainer now and only use a flat collar on my dogs. When I want them to walk nicely and not pull, I put a bit of effort in and remind them of our training (no corrections necessary!) I think its really important to become a good teacher rather than a good trainer. How do dogs know that you don't like pulling? By correcting? That is crappy teaching!!!! (I don't mean you Aiden ) I'd be disillusioned by any trainer who didn't show the client how to train the dog, I'm not sure what it has to do with the equipment they use? I'm also not sure why you would insist that a head collar is a gimmick just because it is relatively new? It's quite simple, they give leverage. If the dog is stronger than the owner, they address the power imbalance. That's it. They do not train a dog to walk close to you and neither does a prong collar. You train a dog to walk in close proximity to you using lots and lots of reinforcement - and that goes whether you use positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement. On leash or off-leash. If someone needs leverage (dog chases cats for e.g) or just needs to take the dog for a walk before they are reliable on a flat collar, you use a head halter. I have a friend who weighs 45kg, her two dogs (now deceased) both almost outweighed her. She used head halters on both dogs every single day. These dogs had obedience titles, had never pulled on the leash problematically, and had excellent off-leash obedience. She was just being pragmatic.

I had a terrible day today...thank God its over and no one was hurt. I took my car to be serviced a couple of kms from work and as I had Brookie with me and it was a lovely morning I thought I'd take him with me and we would walk back to work. Got about a kilometer down the road and 3 humungus dogs (politically incorrect to mention breed type) were fence barking at a nereby yard. OK I thought, they're guard dogs...I'll take a wide berth.....the gates were open and I had one come straight across the road, hackles up, no slowing down, coming straight for us followed by the other two. Now I am a pretty experienced dog person and I know the difference between attack and greeting...these guys were on the attack!!! Very fortunately there was a lunch shop right next to me so we turned and ran (and I mean ran....record breaking stuff) into it and the dogs peeled off. We had to go out the back of the lunch shop and through the lane way out the back to escape the situation! The girls in the lunch bar told me the dogs were not guard dogs and had been dumped My plan was to approach the people in the yard who were interacting with the dogs until they launched their attack, and get the facts. Unfortunately by the time my car was ready to be collected they were closed and there is no sign of the dogs. I cadged a lift from a friend as there was no way I was taking a dog with me and by then it was getting a bit dark. Damn!!!! the streets are being overtaken by frigging thugs! both canine and human!!! I know its not the attacking dogs fault and they are as much victims as we could have been but...... I also know that they are probably lovely dogs with people but I also know that my dog was in danger and that put me in danger also as I would defend my dog. Today we were lucky.... I now can't take my obedience trained dog who walks beautifully on a loose lead. I was fine until a few hours later and then I got the shakes just thinking about what could have happened. I stopped at the liquor store on the way home and now a few bourbons later I'm really "p" off!!!!!!

woo Hoo!!!! :D Need pink bubbles to celebrate....wait....I just happen to have some here!!!!

How about teaching before correcting?!!!! Yes, but a prong collar (or a check chain, martingale etc) has the advantage of being able to give the dog a quick correction only when needed, ie you give the dog a command and he either complies and is rewarded or does not comply and is corrected. It's more precise IMO. Unlike a head collar that works by acting as a constant aversive when it's on and manages the behaviour that way.. I've seen plenty of dogs that will walk perfectly on a halti but as soon as it's taken off they are right back to square one again. I'm sure that you could train llw with practically any tool if you are using the right method but wouldn't a correction collar provide a much clearer picture to the dog of what you are asking for? And therefore learning would be much faster?

:D :D ;) :eek: :) ;) These are the sessions that you want to bottle Yes, well he nearly had his pair of black whatsits bottled on the spot

My thoughts exactly!!!! You don't see any contradiction in that at all?

Good news! It sounds very much like vestibular disease. My kelpie had it when she was around 12yrs and I thought it was a stroke. My vet was wonderful and took one look when we came in and said don't worry its not a stroke and it'll be alright when we were in the waiting room. Its often called geriatric vestibular disease and its more like an infection of the nerve endings of the inner ear. Majority of cases are totally cured with supportive treatment only. Ruby was left with a slight head tilt but thats all. The give away is flicking eyes and vertigo and throwing up as they can't keep their balance. Hope it all goes well for poor Doug.

For food value I feed soft raw bones...not beef and not load bearing hard bones. If you are after a chewy the bestest thing I have come across is a sheep horn! I kid you not...they are hard cartilage and last for months/years. My Aussie and my BC each have one that is chewed on every few days and are 18 months old. You have to get them dried....same way as dried liver etc only on a bigger scale for longer! Other wise visit a farm or station that have a few old ones in the paddock!!!! That's how I discovered them when my kelpie found one visiting her home station. Took it back with us and it was still around a couple of years later. edited to add BTW I would never give my dog raw hide (bleached ) or greenies....both can cause blockages.

Remind you of another red dog Ptolomy?!!!!! Well done!! That's brilliant RS. Out of sight stays are one area I know we will need to work on heaps! I am confident we will go straight into Novice from CCD but training for Open will take a while. I think I'll give Daisy a bit of a break if we get both our CCD and CD titles before the end of the year and will try for Open next year. Daisy has got the basics of the dumbell down pat and will retrieve it over the jump but it's not polished at all and we have tonnes of things to work on. I'm still struggling to get a CCD/Novice 1 minute trial scenario sit stay out of Ruby, she still likes to lay down on occasion if she's hot or bored. Especially the bored part, if she's got nothing to look at while she sits there then she leans down to eat the grass (her favourite pastime!) and that leads to her then forgetting what she's doing and lays down to have a good old munch. Down stays she loves, it means she's closer to the grass I had serious trouble in our saturday 'special' group class, there are 4 of us G has invited to train now and then on a saturday morning, Mason kept lying down, I would go back and make him sit, he sat for like 3 seconds and down he lays again!! Mason is the baby of the group so its important to me that he can do what the others do and his stays are normally excellent but on saturday he could not do it!! So do tell us - this special group that you are a part of - what were you working on on Saturday? I have discovered a problem - I have rewarded Soggybear so much for sitting and waiting - when I call her she just sits there and goes - nope this is a set up

You can also heel with your hands in the middle but not many people do that here.

These would be great for agility too. You are not allowed to have tags or anything dangling from the collar for agility for safety reasons but lots of people don't want to run their dogs naked either.

Hi GRLC As Ptolomy said there are a few differances in WA but the judging is fairly similar. Most judges here do the figure 8 at the end of the routine rather than the beginning and you usually don't get a choice on which way you want to recall and retrieve over the jump in Open. Training is predominately positive in WA and not many correction train anymore. Most train and trial on a flat or martingale collar although there are still a couple using slip collars. As far as the hands go, the rule is that for each exercise the hands must return to the same position they started in. So for heeling you can have the left hand stationary at your side and the right swinging so long as you are not giving any extra movements to help the dog. In the drop on recall, when the judge says about turn and halt, if your hands are in the middle, you signal and call, they must return to your middle, down signal, hands return to middle, finish give signal hand returns to middle. Hands behind back for stays is fine. Bunbury is at least a couple of hours distance from most metro clubs....Rockingham would probably be the closest apart from the Bunbury club which is pretty small although it is an affiliate club and holds both obedience and agility trials.

Best advice I can give you is to go to a couple of trials and observe.... Hands in the middle works ok for some but try running and turning with both hands clasped to your middle...to me it feels very unbalanced.

Lovely work Huski You should be very proud of Daisy and yourself :rolleyes: Yes a couple of little glitches but nothing that can't be smoothed out. Did the judge give you any idea what they would have marked you? The hands thing varies between the states. This was mentioned a little while ago on this list and apparently there are a few Qld judges who actually prefer the hands in the middle. Way back when I started trialling everyone had their hands in the middle. Not sure when it changed but gradually a lot of us went to one hand stationary on the heeling side and the other swinging naturally....taken from the English style of handling. Both styles are acceptable IMO and as you didn't give any extra signals I can't see where it could be marked down. I find it difficult to keep my balance with both hands in the middle and prefer the look of one hand at your heeling side and the other swinging, but that is personal preference and I wouldn't take marks off for either style.

Brooklyn is scared of sheepies Has Brooklyn had a go with sheepies

Not this time as I'm entered in one obedience trial Saturday, judging in the afternoon and then obedience again on Monday. Will leave agility out but may go and have a look at the sheepdog trial at Darkan on Sunday. Well done Jenna!! Anyone doing the agility trail at Carine next weekend? I am stewarding. Carine is Northern Suburbs that is where we train ;) @ Carine open space. No worries are you competing next weekend? I am leaving my boy at home because I am stewarding, there is no class due to the trial.

Sorry, sorry, sorry!!!!!! I know, but as soon as I get the pooper scooper out my dogs think, oh she wants more! and proceed to poo again!!!! I'm definitely getting a compost bin. Thanks everyone!!!

Oooops!!!!! Sorry I'm reading without my glasses!!!! That'll teach me!!!! Well done Jenna!! Anyone doing the agility trail at Carine next weekend? I am stewarding. Carine is Northern Suburbs that is where we train ;) @ Carine open space.

Sasha's blend, Joint guard is good for any dog...can be used as a preventative....especially if you intend to do dog sports. Pet meat is fine but you must give them raw meaty bones as well to provide the calcium and other goodies only found in bone. Clare Middle West Australian Vet also has a raw diet book which is worth reading. What kind of pup mince were you feeding? If it was just ground chicken carcus (with the bone included) then apart from perhaps upping her diet to a premium dry as opposed to a cheap one what you were feeding doesn't sound all that bad. Raw meaty bones and pet mince (ground carcus) are actually quite good for dogs, the bone contains calcium and other essential nutrients as does the meat. Get your hands on some of the Ian Billinhurst books if you are interested in learning a bit more about that. If you'd like to odd omega oil to your girls food you can try either flaxseed oil, fish oil (capsules from the chemist) or an omega pet oil (we use the Melrose brand Omega Pet Oil) and just mix it in with her meals ETA, forgot to ask - are you adding any joint supplements to her diet? Such as Joint Guard or Sashas Blend? If not you might like to consider that also. Oh, the pup mince is a meaty one from the Pet Stock fridge. (Kangaroo a main ingredient I think) It is labelled for Puppies. No supplements given (yet!) As only a pup, I thought those Joint Tabs for arthritic dogs?? Any success with those?

You sure its at Canine? I thought it was Northern Suburbs???? Well done Jenna!! Anyone doing the agility trail at Carine next weekend? I am stewarding.

Thanks....I haven't seen the stirer before....interesting...hubble bubble.....

Good thought Tilly.